A Question, involving the teaching of little people

[TeaDidikai]

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[Pelta]

TeaDidikai

Capital D in Didikai. (Or call me Tea for short. wink )

redface Apologies. Will do in future smile  

[Randilin]

As a pagan parent I was wondering if I would find an Pagan Parenting type of threads, this counts. The first thing I personally would do in this case is see if there is anyone in your community who does like children that would be willing to help directly. Not everyone is a kid person, and there is nothing wrong with that but its likely to come out at some point and could end up hurting R.

It should be made clear to R parents what the Ritual that are being done are for and about. Also it should be clear to R as well, from the description R sounds like a smart kid so I don't think that is so much of an issue. If R were my child I would also want to make sure they have a working knowledge of other religions. If they express an interest in a different church go with them and check it out. In the end when they turn 18 they should be making an informed choice, not just following in our foot steps.  

[Deoridhe]

I'd add in giving her a healthy grounding in mythology. Find some children's re-writes of myths for now, but tell her that's what they are. If she's still interested when she's older, give her the original.

Personally, I'd recommend covering the main polytheistic religions - Roman, Greek, Norse, Celtic, Egyptian, Hindu - and filling it out with some First Nation and Tribal information (it's VERY easy to find Anasasi stories and such, somewhat harder to find African and Australian and Indonesian stories) and Buddhism.

On the last, I had a lovely book as a child that told the story of a painter who was commissioned to paint the death of Buddha for a temple. He had a cat (a very sweet, respectful cat), but cats were considered unlucky because they refused to bless Buddha when he died. As he meditated on stories of the Buddha's lives (which were retold) and painted the other animals, the cat grew sadder and sadder because she wouldn't be in the picture. Finally, his love for her compelled him to add her to the painting, even though that violated the teachings. He was in disgrace; his work was to be burned; he was despised by all the village. The morning that the painting was to be burned, it was found miraculously changed! The cat, who had been the last animal, was now first - and the Buddha, whose hands had been folded at his chest, was reaching one hand out in benediction to her. ^___^

I don't remember the name; I should find the book again. I think of it when I'm sad.  

[Padmasana]

Randilin

As a pagan parent I was wondering if I would find an Pagan Parenting type of threads, this counts.

There's a Pagan Parenting section at www.Witchvox.com, if you haven't already been there...the articles are largely anecdotal but may put you in contact with others in similar situations.  

[Randilin]

The pagan parent section on Witchvox is pretty good, I've read through a good portion of it in the past. Thanks for the suggestion. A good book on the subject is called Raising Witches. I know I have gotten alot out of it and so have a number of other parents I know. You also might want to look at The Circle Round.  

[blindfaith^_^]

I would give her a basic introduction to a large range of Pagan beliefs and see which ones interest her. Also I would put a high emphasis on ethics, especially if you intend on teaching her any sort of energy work or even very basic spell craft.

As far as basic things to teach her some form of basic meditation would probably be helpful. I think learning to create sacred space, casting circle, raising energy, and grounding are all good beginner exerscises, which while they probably aren't all in the Pagan belief systems will most likely be helpful to her in some fashion. Make sure that you don't just teach her to do them though, but you also touch briefly on their importance and use too. Also all of these techniques don't seem to clash with any sort of moderate Christian beliefs so you wouldn't be making her choose one religion or another.

To tread lightly on the Christian beliefs you could present some of the myths and folklore of particular pagan beliefs just as that, myths and folklore. Most eught year olds I know like to hear stories and seem to be pretty good at taking the message out without believing that Cinderella is the messiah.

Since she likes animals and nature you could introduce her to very basic natural correspondences. For example if she likes plants, while herbalology would be too much, you could help her explore the properties or her favorite plants. Or you could tell her about the uses for her birthstone. Something simple and little like that, unless she shows interest in going deeper keep it light and brief in these sort of topics as it might be too much for her to absorb.

As far as an interest in writing goes, a magical journal of sorts would probably be a good thing here. Something else that is fairly light and simple might be a dream diary, and through this tool you could introduce some of the techniques of interpreting dreams to her if you wanted. Since dreams are very personal to start with and something she should probably be able to begin to grasp easily after a few tries.

Speaking of lighter things she could learn, maybe tarots with brief brief definitions and the aid of a book? Though thinking back to when I was eight, I didn't have the reading skills for that, so maybe that's too old.  

[Pelta]

blindfaith^_^

Also I would put a high emphasis on ethics, especially if you intend on teaching her any sort of energy work or even very basic spell craft.

But what kinds of ethics? Wouldn't that be a bit of a problem considering most paths do not share the same codes of ethics?

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Make sure that you don't just teach her to do them though, but you also touch briefly on their importance and use too.

I would argue that teaching her the use and importance of grounding and centering is just as essential, if not more so, than the practises themselves. What's the point of doing something if you don't understand what it's for?

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keep it light and brief in these sort of topics as it might be too much for her to absorb.

Actually I think many 8-yr-olds are a lot more intelligent that they're given credit for. Perhaps a shorter attention span would be somewhat of an issue, but if a kid's genuinely interested in something they often will work hard at learning more about it. So for herbology and stones you could write a lesson plan, give her a couple things to learn every day and quiz them on her the next time. That's no different from what they're doing in school at that age anyway. If she's genuinely interested she'll probably do the work and keep up with her studies.

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Speaking of lighter things she could learn, maybe tarots with brief brief definitions and the aid of a book?

I'd agree that the tarot may be a bit complicated (you don't want to throw the thoth deck at her or anything...) but some form of divination would probably be good to learn. Maybe using a pendulum? It's never worked for me but it looks pretty easy to get the hang of. There's also oracle cards, which are like baby tarot cards. The ones I was given have the meanings printed out on them in four different languages so they shouldn't be too hard for a girl to get the hang of. And from there it's just a short step up to the tarot, which you could do by working through the major arcana one by one, then going through the minor arcana by suit or number. But not all at once. Gradual growth is the way to go. But if you go too slow she'll probably get restless and bored. Teaching really isn't easy...  

[blindfaith^_^]

missmagpie

blindfaith^_^

Also I would put a high emphasis on ethics, especially if you intend on teaching her any sort of energy work or even very basic spell craft.

But what kinds of ethics? Wouldn't that be a bit of a problem considering most paths do not share the same codes of ethics?

One could sit down with her parents and discuss what ethics that they find important. Also in this particular case it might be wise to line the ethics up as closely as possible to the Christian foundation she already has.

missmagpie

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keep it light and brief in these sort of topics as it might be too much for her to absorb.

Actually I think many 8-yr-olds are a lot more intelligent that they're given credit for. Perhaps a shorter attention span would be somewhat of an issue, but if a kid's genuinely interested in something they often will work hard at learning more about it. So for herbology and stones you could write a lesson plan, give her a couple things to learn every day and quiz them on her the next time. That's no different from what they're doing in school at that age anyway. If she's genuinely interested she'll probably do the work and keep up with her studies.

I was really only thinking of how I acted when I was eight. Sure if something really interested me I knew all about it and wanted to learn all about it, but if I only had a facination for it because it was unknown or new, sometimes the brief explination worked better. What I'm saying is don't get too detailed too soon see how she reacts to the information first. Maybe the light explination is enough for her.

Also, especially in herbology, a lot of the terms can get to be very complex and technical, I know sometimes I have trouble sloshing through thicker volumes on the subject. Not to mention that depending on exactly the herbs and what you teach her, she might want to experiment on her own and it would be very important to go over safty and what can and can not be eaten.

I personally don't know too much on stone magic so I couldn't agrue for or against it well. The people who I know that use it like it a lot and feel its very simple and powerful.

missmagpie

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Speaking of lighter things she could learn, maybe tarots with brief brief definitions and the aid of a book?

I'd agree that the tarot may be a bit complicated (you don't want to throw the thoth deck at her or anything...) but some form of divination would probably be good to learn. Maybe using a pendulum? It's never worked for me but it looks pretty easy to get the hang of. There's also oracle cards, which are like baby tarot cards. The ones I was given have the meanings printed out on them in four different languages so they shouldn't be too hard for a girl to get the hang of. And from there it's just a short step up to the tarot, which you could do by working through the major arcana one by one, then going through the minor arcana by suit or number. But not all at once. Gradual growth is the way to go. But if you go too slow she'll probably get restless and bored. Teaching really isn't easy...

There are also cards called "Angel Cards" that are often sold in Christian spiritually oriented stores, which aren't supposed to be too diffiucult to use. Obviously with tarot cards, depending on how into it one gets and the complexities of the desk it might be appropriate for an eight year old. I have some cards now I like partly because they are so simplistic called "The Goddess Tarot" by Kris Waldherr. Also it would be easy enough to teach her a three card draw on pas present and future, without much confusion. She'd probably pick it up very quickly.  

[Pelta]

blindfaith^_^

One could sit down with her parents and discuss what ethics that they find important. Also in this particular case it might be wise to line the ethics up as closely as possible to the Christian foundation she already has.

Why? A lot of paganism has very little to do with Christian ethics. If she's truly interested, wouldn't it make more sense to teach her things she didn't know instead of teaching her the same things in a different context? If it's a learning experience and she wants to learn new things, why teach her the old and pretend it's new? Though I agree that close communication with the parents is very important, especially when it comes to ethics, the OP never said her parents were Christian.

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I was really only thinking of how I acted when I was eight. Sure if something really interested me I knew all about it and wanted to learn all about it, but if I only had a facination for it because it was unknown or new, sometimes the brief explination worked better. What I'm saying is don't get too detailed too soon see how she reacts to the information first. Maybe the light explination is enough for her.

I had a terrible problem when I was younger. I would ask a question and my parents would try to explain it to me in a way they thought I would understand. Then... "Why?".... "Why?".... "Why?".... And they'd try to answer as best as they could until they got so totally frustrated they'd make up some excuse to leave or change the subject. It may have been annoying but I bloody well learned a lot. And isn't that the kind of attitude that it would be good to foster in younger pagans? To question and always want to learn more? I agree that you don't want to start off too complicated, but paganism isn't 'light and brief' and she shouldn't get that impression from what she's being taught. If she kept getting all the short answers, what would make her want to search for the long ones?

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Also, especially in herbology, a lot of the terms can get to be very complex and technical, I know sometimes I have trouble sloshing through thicker volumes on the subject. Not to mention that depending on exactly the herbs and what you teach her, she might want to experiment on her own and it would be very important to go over safty and what can and can not be eaten.

Safety is very important, and would have to be taught with the subject. Herbology isn't my forte, but wouldn't it be possible to teach her the basic correspondences and uses of plants without going in to the extreme medicinal scientifics of it? One could teach her how to use a mortar and pestle, for example. How to measure out quantaties (good for cooking too) and how to identify different plants. I would have loved someone to teach me the names of different plants when I was younger. You could go for a walk in a local park or forest and identify different herbs and flowers and teach her how to. You could encourage her to cut and dry her own herbs and teach her some of their different properties, always emphasising the safety of it and encouraging her to keep a notebook with all her discoveries. Wouldn't that work? There's no reason to gloss over important subjects just because she might not understand. You just have to present them in a way that interest her. And a very important part of teaching is gradual growth. You don't throw her in the deep end, but you learn to swim in the shallows and make your way to the heavier stuff gradually. That's how most good education systems work.

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There are also cards called "Angel Cards" that are often sold in Christian spiritually oriented stores, which aren't supposed to be too diffiucult to use.

Why are you focusing on the Christian element of her spirituality? If she's interested in paganism, why would you teach her things she already knows? And I personally dislike Angel Cards. They're fluffy, cute representations of divine forces that really shouldn't be presented that way. If she wants to learn seriously I suggest you avoid them, especially if she ever wants to learn how to work with the angels of the Kaballah or Ceremonial magic.

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Obviously with tarot cards, depending on how into it one gets and the complexities of the desk it might be appropriate for an eight year old. I have some cards now I like partly because they are so simplistic called "The Goddess Tarot" by Kris Waldherr. Also it would be easy enough to teach her a three card draw on pas present and future, without much confusion. She'd probably pick it up very quickly.

Indeed the three card draw would be a good place to start. However, the tarot can be incredibly complex, especially if you are starting on it completely new with no previous experience with divination and listening to intuition. Which is why I suggested starting on alternate forms of divination that might open her up to divination gradually. And I don't see much point in teaching her a spread if she doesn't know what the cards mean. I would suggest learning the meanings of the cards first, then showing her how to use a spread. She can then always refer back to her notes if she doesn't remember, instead of having to learn something out of the blue every time a new card crops up.  

[blindfaith^_^]

missmagpie

blindfaith^_^

One could sit down with her parents and discuss what ethics that they find important. Also in this particular case it might be wise to line the ethics up as closely as possible to the Christian foundation she already has.

Why? A lot of paganism has very little to do with Christian ethics. If she's truly interested, wouldn't it make more sense to teach her things she didn't know instead of teaching her the same things in a different context? If it's a learning experience and she wants to learn new things, why teach her the old and pretend it's new? Though I agree that close communication with the parents is very important, especially when it comes to ethics, the OP never said her parents were Christian.

While the OP doesn't say her parents are Christian, it does state in there that R has a very close relationship with her grandparents, who take her to church every Sunday. While its alway good to introduce children to new ideas and concepts and to branch out and challenge material already presented to them, one has to respect the Grandparents too. Clearly some sort of moderate Christian values are very important to them and it would be in poor form to put strain on there relationship when there is no need to. Too much pushing of opposite believes may not be what would be good intially in the situation. But that's my own opinion on it, mostly because I know in my own very Christian household, my parents don't like all of my own ethics and felt very threatened by it when I began to introduce it to them. I don't think that's a position I would set up for an eight year old.

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I had a terrible problem when I was younger. I would ask a question and my parents would try to explain it to me in a way they thought I would understand. Then... "Why?".... "Why?".... "Why?".... And they'd try to answer as best as they could until they got so totally frustrated they'd make up some excuse to leave or change the subject. It may have been annoying but I bloody well learned a lot. And isn't that the kind of attitude that it would be good to foster in younger pagans? To question and always want to learn more? I agree that you don't want to start off too complicated, but paganism isn't 'light and brief' and she shouldn't get that impression from what she's being taught. If she kept getting all the short answers, what would make her want to search for the long ones?

Certainly that sort of questing curiousity is exactly the sort of thing I would like to see more of in the Pagan community, but I don't think that starting off with very long winded detailed selections of nuance is going to be conducive to teaching anyone. Introductions, are just that, foundations to build off of once one knows what direction they want to go into. While I agree that one can't be too brief in their summary because it will dumb it down too much, one can't be too detailed either or the immediate level of complexity will turn them away.

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Safety is very important, and would have to be taught with the subject. Herbology isn't my forte, but wouldn't it be possible to teach her the basic correspondences and uses of plants without going in to the extreme medicinal scientifics of it? One could teach her how to use a mortar and pestle, for example. How to measure out quantaties (good for cooking too) and how to identify different plants. I would have loved someone to teach me the names of different plants when I was younger. You could go for a walk in a local park or forest and identify different herbs and flowers and teach her how to. You could encourage her to cut and dry her own herbs and teach her some of their different properties, always emphasising the safety of it and encouraging her to keep a notebook with all her discoveries. Wouldn't that work? There's no reason to gloss over important subjects just because she might not understand. You just have to present them in a way that interest her. And a very important part of teaching is gradual growth. You don't throw her in the deep end, but you learn to swim in the shallows and make your way to the heavier stuff gradually. That's how most good education systems work.

These are all indeed great ideas and good places to start. Perhaps gardening could be added in too. My mom has always really been into growing things, and I know when I was little part of my favorite thing to do would be to help her water and plant all of the different flora. There's something very satifying about taking part in mantaining the life of something else.

The biggest thing I would think would be important to get accross is to keep everything in moderation, as even very helpful harmless plants are usually posionness in large doses (though honestly for most of the more common herbs seen in cooking the fatal dosage is so high its not a realistic fear).

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Why are you focusing on the Christian element of her spirituality? If she's interested in paganism, why would you teach her things she already knows? And I personally dislike Angel Cards. They're fluffy, cute representations of divine forces that really shouldn't be presented that way. If she wants to learn seriously I suggest you avoid them, especially if she ever wants to learn how to work with the angels of the Kaballah or Ceremonial magic.

I've already explained why most of my suggestions are pushing a Christian bent. I would agree with you about the angel cards, bordering fluffy, and perhaps they are inappropriate for the situation.

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Indeed the three card draw would be a good place to start. However, the tarot can be incredibly complex, especially if you are starting on it completely new with no previous experience with divination and listening to intuition. Which is why I suggested starting on alternate forms of divination that might open her up to divination gradually. And I don't see much point in teaching her a spread if she doesn't know what the cards mean. I would suggest learning the meanings of the cards first, then showing her how to use a spread. She can then always refer back to her notes if she doesn't remember, instead of having to learn something out of the blue every time a new card crops up.

True, it would probably be best to explain all the cards first and allow her to refer back to her notes, and it might be better for her to start with another form of divination first. I'm not too well versed in many of these forms so I wouldn't know what to suggest in this venue.

For me, after I learned to meditate properly, tarots just came naturally. I guess I just forget that a lot of that natural ease is something that happened for me personally but not for everyone. xp  

[Pelta]

blindfaith^_^

While the OP doesn't say her parents are Christian, it does state in there that R has a very close relationship with her grandparents, who take her to church every Sunday.

Actually, what she said was:

Erishkegal

her wonderful grandparents (who are involved in the United Church and often bring R along, though R's parents are non-religious)

Not quite the same as every Sunday.

blindfaith^_^

While its alway good to introduce children to new ideas and concepts and to branch out and challenge material already presented to them, one has to respect the Grandparents too.

Agreed, but not to the extent that it should hinder on her education of a pagan path. The OP only stipulated that she wouldn't like to make the parents or grandparents uncomfortable. This isn't the same as teaching R Christian values through a guise of paganism.

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Clearly some sort of moderate Christian values are very important to them

Where does the OP say that?

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But that's my own opinion on it, mostly because I know in my own very Christian household, my parents don't like all of my own ethics and felt very threatened by it when I began to introduce it to them.

The OP said the child's parents were "non-religious" and supported her learning more about paganism. Therefore why should it be a problem, and why should she try to inject Christian morals into a pagan system? This wouldn't be teaching the child about paganism, this would be teaching her Christianity with a fancy mask!

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While I agree that one can't be too brief in their summary because it will dumb it down too much, one can't be too detailed either or the immediate level of complexity will turn them away.

Agreed. It's a balance that has to be found, and that changes from person to person.  

[Sivirs]

missmagpie

This wouldn't be teaching the child about paganism, this would be teaching her Christianity with a fancy mask!

Which, incidentally, is also a baiting tactic of Silver RavenWolf's. "It's not REALLY a different religion, it's just Christianity with some fancy wrapping! So it's okay to buy my book!"

That's reason enough for me to stay away from it, personally. It's dishonest to both Christianity and Paganism, in a way, not to mention to the kid.  

[Pelta]

Sivirs

missmagpie

This wouldn't be teaching the child about paganism, this would be teaching her Christianity with a fancy mask!

Which, incidentally, is also a baiting tactic of Silver RavenWolf's. "It's not REALLY a different religion, it's just Christianity with some fancy wrapping! So it's okay to buy my book!"

*shudder* Eeeewww.... And I think you'll agree we want to stay as far away from that as possible.

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That's reason enough for me to stay away from it, personally. It's dishonest to both Christianity and Paganism, in a way, not to mention to the kid.

Exactly. The kid honestly asked for something she wanted to learn more about. The least one could do is try to make one's teaching as accurate as possible. It's only fair.  

[Memento Mortalis Es]

Wax on, wax off.

It seems to me that the first thing you teach the kid is an attention span. Make the kid the best at focusing in her entire elementary school. This does two things: It makes the kid a lot easier to teach, both for you and for the people at school; and it gets you on the good side of almost anyone in her family who was previously doubtful of you. Second thing you do is imbue her with a constant need for questioning. Teach her to always ask, "Why?" But also to take "I'll tell you when you're older" as an answer. Then you move on to grounding. If the kid is interested in plants, it might work to do an herb garden with her while all this is going on. Start with stuff like rosemary, sage, peppermint, licorice, etc. Herbs that won't poison her if she decides to taste them, and that have no properties the parents would object to. I wouldn't start her working with magic until she has a firm sense of ethics. My magical ethics system is simple: think of the non-magical equivalent, then use your non-magical ethics. I especially wouldn't teach her how to cast a circle until she's thirteen, and I'm not even sure if that young is a good idea.

For the Pagan parents: In my experience, most of the time the children of Pagans stay Pagan, even though the parents emphasize freedom. On the flip side, if all children stuck with the religion of their parents, none of us would be here.