Mixing Business with Religion

[rmcdra]

Okay I think I'll take this a different direction

Matthew 7

12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

What they are doing is disrespectful to their clients because they are not doing unto others as they would have others do unto them. Now one may take this and say, "but if you knew the way to salvation wouldn't you want us to know"

Matthew 25

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

The short of this is that biblically, it's their God who decides who's saved, and it is stressed that it is by how one acts. So what this business is doing is merely bells and whistles and has nothing to do with bringing people to their God but rather to their way of thinking.

This does not even touch upon how Christians are to spread the Logos by their love, which by what you have described, is severely lacking.

edit: grammar  

[Brass Bell Doll]

rmcdra

Okay I think I'll take this a different direction

Matthew 7

12So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

What they are doing is disrespectful to their clients because they are not doing unto others as they would have others do unto them. Now one may take this and say, "but if you knew the way to salvation wouldn't you want us to know"

If they are trying to help, why would that be wrong?

If another's path says it needs to teach others to help them, then it's okay.

rmcdra

The short of this is that biblically, it's God who decides who's saved,

I feel that is fair and I agree.

rmcdra

and it is stressed that it is by how one acts.

I also feel this is a fair agreement.

rmcdra

So what this business is doing is merely bells and whistles and has nothing to do with bringing people to God but rather to their deluded way of thinking.

I feel this isn't always the case.

If that poster gives a person pause for thought, I feel they are doing something that God has asked them to do.

I feel it is possible that this is but one expression of their faith. Mayhaps they would have a conversation with someone who is lost, who felt they could confide in the business owners. I feel that because we can't know what their intentions are, that it is hurtful to assume their intentions are cruel.

I also feel that any hurt feelings on the part of their guests should be explored and healed. I don't feel that the healing should come at the expense of depriving another of their soul's desire to express their path.

rmcdra

This does not even touch upon how Christians are to spread the Logos by their love, which by what you have described, is severely lacking.

I feel that there is a miscommunication here. I did not intend to describe anything. I wish to offer alternative perspective, and to be courteous to others and their journey on their path.  

[oOGarrettOo]

I feel that the whole thing comes down to professional/business ethics before it should even really touch the whole path/religion thing. Ethically speaking, one should not openly display religious views, opinions, or other such bits and pieces to the public unless the business itself is advertised as such. Business/profession should be kept separate from personal life, and this includes religious beliefs. Advertising them is unprofessional simply because it alienates or offends a portion of their potential clientele.

All in all, whatever their intentions may be, it's a bad move for their business and just a sign of poor management. The personal affairs of the owner/s should not be displayed publicly in their business, especially if the business really doesn't have anything to do with said affairs. It's business ethics, not spiritual/religious ethics.  

[rmcdra]

Brass Bell Doll

If they are trying to help, why would that be wrong?

If another's path says it needs to teach others to help them, then it's okay.

The problem with this is that the nature of Yeshua's God is agape, which is patient and respectful. Those who wish to teach should wait for those to come to them, those who wish to learn will recognize them for who they are.

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I feel this isn't always the case.

If that poster gives a person pause for thought, I feel they are doing something that God has asked them to do.

While this may be the case in some situations, there is a problem with doing what God asks especially when one has a shallow to nil understanding of the core of the religion and the texts related to it. To give you a personal example: There is a person claiming to be a Christian Gnostic teacher (a very popular author I might add) who describes how his God told him to leave his wife-to-be on the alter, on their wedding day, and to go sleep with a cheap $5 whore. Now I know from my experience with my God, through my gnosis, the NT canon, and the Nag Hammadi scripture, that such behavior would not have been encouraged by my God. Yet he's in the status of a teacher, claiming to be teaching about the same God that I follow. Just some food for thought about those who claim to be doing God's will.

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I feel it is possible that this is but one expression of their faith. Mayhaps they would have a conversation with someone who is lost, who felt they could confide in the business owners. I feel that because we can't know what their intentions are, that it is hurtful to assume their intentions are cruel.

You know I'll concede that it was a bit arrogant of me to assume what their intentions were. While what you are saying is true, there are appropriate ways and times when to do such a thing. Now I could be wrong about this but the methods they use are not appropriate for the given setting.

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I also feel that any hurt feelings on the part of their guests should be explored and healed. I don't feel that the healing should come at the expense of depriving another of their soul's desire to express their path.

Depends on the person's path really. If a person uses rape or child molestation as methods for their path or use their path to justify such behavior, I will stand in their way to express their path.

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I feel that there is a miscommunication here. I did not intend to describe anything. I wish to offer alternative perspective, and to be courteous to others and their journey on their path.

I was not trying to bash them for who they are and I'm sorry if I came off as such. I simply disagree with their behavior and find the scriptural support that is used to justify this behavior reflecting a shallow understanding of Christianity and it's core.  

[kage no neko]

Brass Bell Doll

kage no neko

But I understand, it'd still be better if noone would have to deal with either.

May I ask why you feel that way?

Edit: Another thought occurred to me. What if the business owners are keeping those posters there as reminders for themselves?

If I found myself in the situation that ncsweet does, I would feel tempted to consider it a message to me- but it's also possible that it's not directed at me at all, but it could be directed towards the owners as well as a reminder of their path.

It'd be better due to situations like this. Where those who aren't of that faith feel like they're not welcomed, or even insulted by it. I get the impression they think "our religion is better than yours", especially those Christians who rub it in your face and tell you you're going to hell for not believing.
I'd be fine if they wore a cross or a crucifix on a necklace to remind them. I know plenty of people who do, and I feel no ill will towards them. But if it were a poster, saying something about Christianity, a certain message toward the general people that go there.. It'd be a message to me, since I went there. And that'd be insulting.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

oOGarrettOo

I feel that the whole thing comes down to professional/business ethics before it should even really touch the whole path/religion thing. Ethically speaking, one should not openly display religious views, opinions, or other such bits and pieces to the public unless the business itself is advertised as such. Business/profession should be kept separate from personal life, and this includes religious beliefs.

Why do you feel this is an important ethical stance?

oOGarrettOo

Advertising them is unprofessional simply because it alienates or offends a portion of their potential clientele.

Could you help me understand why you feel that they should not follow their spiritual path in favor of attempting to avoid offending people?

I feel it would be better for others to be tolerant of the owner's religious views, and to work through their feelings regarding those views rather than to suggest that the customer's feelings are more important than the owners.

oOGarrettOo

All in all, whatever their intentions may be, it's a bad move for their business and just a sign of poor management. The personal affairs of the owner/s should not be displayed publicly in their business, especially if the business really doesn't have anything to do with said affairs. It's business ethics, not spiritual/religious ethics.

I do not feel that it is an ethical standard that would require a professional to hide their religious affiliation.

Could you help me understand why you feel it is?

rmcdra

The problem with this is that the nature of Yeshua's God is agape, which is patient and respectful. Those who wish to teach should wait for those to come to them, those who wish to learn will recognize them for who they are.

I do not feel this is always the case.

I feel that some people need different tools in learning and teaching. I also feel that being respectful and patient with others means tolerating the differences between us.

rmcdra

While this may be the case in some situations, there is a problem with doing what God asks especially when one has a shallow to nil understanding of the core of the religion and the texts related to it. To give you a personal example: There is a person claiming to be a Christian Gnostic teacher (a very popular author I might add) who describes how his God told him to leave his wife-to-be on the alter, on their wedding day, and to go sleep with a cheap $5 whore. Now I know from my experience with my God, through my gnosis, the NT canon, and the Nag Hammadi scripture, that such behavior would not have been encouraged by my God. Yet he's in the status of a teacher, claiming to be teaching about the same God that I follow. Just some food for thought about those who claim to be doing God's will.

I believe you feel that what he did was wrong.

But I also feel that there is likely more to this story than first meets the eye. Would you be willing to provide more information on it?

rmcdra

You know I'll concede that it was a bit arrogant of me to assume what their intentions were. While what you are saying is true, there are appropriate ways and times when to do such a thing. Now I could be wrong about this but the methods they use are not appropriate for the given setting.

Could you explain why you feel that way?

rmcdra

Depends on the person's path really. If a person uses rape or child molestation as methods for their path or use their path to justify such behavior, I will stand in their way to express their path.

I completely agree. But here we are speaking of posters and the intention and practice of putting them up in a business. I felt the context was clear, but if you would like, I am willing to be more explicit in my statements in the future.

rmcdra

I was not trying to bash them for who they are and I'm sorry if I came off as such. I simply disagree with their behavior and find the scriptural support that is used to justify this behavior reflecting a shallow understanding of Christianity and it's core.

I suppose the reason I am hurt by your words is that I feel that even if it is shallow by your standards, to speak of them poorly or to say that your way is better than theirs devalues others and how they seek, learn and grow. Mayhaps all their seeking- all of our seeking, will only be shallow to the eyes of some. But if it is honest and hard-won, I feel that it is still beautiful, even if it is not as masterful as the learning of others.

I often feel that I will pass from this world as unenlightened as I entered it. I struggle with my own attempts to learn and walk my path. I trip, and fall, and rise again. I may not be as far up the mountain as you are, but I hope to be there some day, and it saddens me that I may not have the opportunity to be a friend to some because I am so far behind them. I struggle with thoughts of worthiness and doubt. But I feel I have to keep going. I am sure as you see them as shallow, others have thought such of me. Mayhaps in my life I shall not be as shallow. Mayhaps in the next. Or the one after that. But I feel that I can still grow, and learn and as long as I keep working at it, I feel I have done as I should.  

[oOGarrettOo]

It's not about my personal feelings. It's about business ethics and professionalism. Religious association in a non-religious related business is poor management and unethical/unprofessional. It has nothing to do with my personal feelings. I never stated that it had anything to do with my personal views. I'm talking about ethics.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

kage no neko

It'd be better due to situations like this. Where those who aren't of that faith feel like they're not welcomed, or even insulted by it.

Why would you feel unwelcomed or insulted?

kage no neko

I get the impression they think "our religion is better than yours", especially those Christians who rub it in your face and tell you you're going to hell for not believing.

That may be a failing of theirs. It may not be. Whether that is their intention or not, would any demands we would make not simply be the other side of that coin?

kage no neko

I'd be fine if they wore a cross or a crucifix on a necklace to remind them. I know plenty of people who do, and I feel no ill will towards them. But if it were a poster, saying something about Christianity, a certain message toward the general people that go there.. It'd be a message to me, since I went there. And that'd be insulting.

I am truly sorry, I'm not understanding how someone else being secure in their message is insulting.

oOGarrettOo

It's not about my personal feelings. It's about business ethics and professionalism.

Would you be able to share with me the source of your understanding of ethics and professionalism?

I do not feel it is either unethical or unprofessional.

oOGarrettOo

Religious association in a non-religious related business is poor management and unethical/unprofessional. It has nothing to do with my personal feelings. I never stated that it had anything to do with my personal views. I'm talking about ethics.

I apologize if I offended you.

I feel that religious association in businesses has nothing to do with business ethics, though some religious practices make their way into business practices. I think my favorite example is how Islamic Banks do not charge interest on loans.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Brass Bell Doll

oOGarrettOo

I feel that the whole thing comes down to professional/business ethics before it should even really touch the whole path/religion thing. Ethically speaking, one should not openly display religious views, opinions, or other such bits and pieces to the public unless the business itself is advertised as such. Business/profession should be kept separate from personal life, and this includes religious beliefs.

Why do you feel this is an important ethical stance?

...because it helps to keep a place neutral and welcoming to a more people? Hence more business, more income.

I personally can not see any good, compelling reason for a non-religious business to display obviously religious things around in plain sight of guests. If it's for them? Great, that's what they have an office and back-room areas for. If they are struggling in their faith, I have to genuinely wonder how much it actually helps them to put it on display for every Tom, d**k, and Harry to see. If they are honestly trying to bring guests to Salvation? Great, keep materials (like those little pocket-sized copies of the NT) by the register and/or keep a community bulletin board with local church listings and church-based events listed. I mean, there really are other, more subtle ways to keep your faith around and not be off-putting to people.  

[oOGarrettOo]

School. And they're ETHICS. They don't feel they just are. It's not about feelings, it's about guidelines and professionalism. It is not professional to plaster a store with religious posters when the store is not affiliated.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Brass Bell Doll

I feel that religious association in businesses has nothing to do with business ethics, though some religious practices make their way into business practices. I think my favorite example is how Islamic Banks do not charge interest on loans.

Usury is haram in Islam. It's not really a matter of "Oh we have this religious practice and over time it's become part of business" it was a business and religious practice from its inception.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Violet Song jat Shariff

...because it helps to keep a place neutral and welcoming to a more people? Hence more business, more income.

If they feel that sacrificing the business of those who are unwilling to be exposed to the posters is worth the benefits, why would that not be enough justification to keep them?

Violet Song jat Shariff

I personally can not see any good, compelling reason for a non-religious business to display obviously religious things around in plain sight of guests.

The conscience of the owners is the only reason that I can see.

Violet Song jat Shariff

If it's for them? Great, that's what they have an office and back-room areas for.

I feel that is a good point. But I also feel that it need not be limited to those areas.

Violet Song jat Shariff

If they are struggling in their faith, I have to genuinely wonder how much it actually helps them to put it on display for every Tom, d**k, and Harry to see.

I never feel compelled to question that sort of thing myself. It will help them or it won't.

Violet Song jat Shariff

If they are honestly trying to bring guests to Salvation? Great, keep materials (like those little pocket-sized copies of the NT) by the register and/or keep a community bulletin board with local church listings and church-based events listed. I mean, there really are other, more subtle ways to keep your faith around and not be off-putting to people.

I certainly agree there are ways to do it and be less off-putting. But I also feel that they should be able to choose what is right for them, and I believe it is the responsibility of those who are put-off by it to explore those feelings and heal.

oOGarrettOo

School.

Is there a textbook or something you recommend I look at?

oOGarrettOo

And they're ETHICS. They don't feel they just are.

Ethics are developed by people, and in something arbitrary like if a poster is hanging up in a business or not, when there is no demonstrable harm to others, I would assume that it is a matter of people's feelings for such ethics to be put into practice.
I may be assuming something falsely, and I would welcome the chance to explore your position further.


I may be reading too much into this, but I would like to apologize if I have offended you.

oOGarrettOo

It's not about feelings, it's about guidelines and professionalism. It is not professional to plaster a store with religious posters when the store is not affiliated.

Could you explain to me when it became unprofessional to have religious messages in a store?

Violet Song jat Shariff

Usury is haram in Islam. It's not really a matter of "Oh we have this religious practice and over time it's become part of business" it was a business and religious practice from its inception.

I agree. But I also feel it is important to note that modern banking participating in this practice is a professional institution keeping a religious practice. I do not feel that the date of the practice's origins effects it's status as a religious practice blending in with business.


As an addendum, I feel that this expresses itself as a double standard in society.
When an Asian restaurant has religious iconography, or a nail salon has a Buddhist shrine, it's tolerated far better than what we are seeing here.

I would be interested in reading other's opinions on if their shrines should be dismantled or hidden.  

[kage no neko]

Brass Bell Doll

kage no neko

It'd be better due to situations like this. Where those who aren't of that faith feel like they're not welcomed, or even insulted by it.

Why would you feel unwelcomed or insulted?

Because they're favoring another religious group. They're implying that that religion is better simply because they are so blatantly advertising it.

Brass Bell Doll

kage no neko

I get the impression they think "our religion is better than yours", especially those Christians who rub it in your face and tell you you're going to hell for not believing.

That may be a failing of theirs. It may not be. Whether that is their intention or not, would any demands we would make not simply be the other side of that coin?

If we ask them to take the posters down because they offend us, it would not be forcing our personal religion upon them. We're not holding up posters for them to see, saying that Zeus is the great almighty god that everyone should worship. Which I can see them saying is insulting to them, as well.

Brass Bell Doll

kage no neko

I'd be fine if they wore a cross or a crucifix on a necklace to remind them. I know plenty of people who do, and I feel no ill will towards them. But if it were a poster, saying something about Christianity, a certain message toward the general people that go there.. It'd be a message to me, since I went there. And that'd be insulting.

I am truly sorry, I'm not understanding how someone else being secure in their message is insulting.

Because they don't have to. Since they don't have to, since they can be reminded in more subtle ways, unless they're completely senile and can't even REMEMBER their god, they're targeting others around them, not reminding themselves.  

[Violet Song jat Shariff]

Brass Bell Doll

Violet Song jat Shariff

...because it helps to keep a place neutral and welcoming to a more people? Hence more business, more income.

If they feel that sacrificing the business of those who are unwilling to be exposed to the posters is worth the benefits, why would that not be enough justification to keep them?

I suppose it would depend on how much profit they would actually want to make.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

I personally can not see any good, compelling reason for a non-religious business to display obviously religious things around in plain sight of guests.

The conscience of the owners is the only reason that I can see.

I'm sorry, I said a good, compelling reason.
If I were to deface said posters, I highly doubt saying that it was my conscience would be a good, compelling reason against vandalism charges.
I would say that claiming that one's conscience is a good, compelling reason for things opens up a huge ******** Pandora's Box.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

If it's for them? Great, that's what they have an office and back-room areas for.

I feel that is a good point. But I also feel that it need not be limited to those areas.

That's nice.
Is there a reason we should take the way you feel at face value or are you willing to explain in depth WHY you feel that way?

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Violet Song jat Shariff

If they are struggling in their faith, I have to genuinely wonder how much it actually helps them to put it on display for every Tom, d**k, and Harry to see.

I never feel compelled to question that sort of thing myself. It will help them or it won't.

See, I do. I have to wonder what one hopes to gain by spreading information about their misfortunes/weaknesses around for everyone to see. Doesn't seem a particularly wise or helpful thing to do.

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Violet Song jat Shariff

If they are honestly trying to bring guests to Salvation? Great, keep materials (like those little pocket-sized copies of the NT) by the register and/or keep a community bulletin board with local church listings and church-based events listed. I mean, there really are other, more subtle ways to keep your faith around and not be off-putting to people.

I certainly agree there are ways to do it and be less off-putting. But I also feel that they should be able to choose what is right for them, and I believe it is the responsibility of those who are put-off by it to explore those feelings and heal.

In displaying things in such an obvious, glaring way, it ceases to be about what is right for them and bleeds over into them deciding what is right for everyone who enters their establishment.

Not everything heals. Not everything NEEDS to heal. To simply suggest "deal and heal" is mildly insulting to the issue.
Why not suggest that the business owners need to explore their feelings of turbulence in their faith and heal?

Quote:

Violet Song jat Shariff

Usury is haram in Islam. It's not really a matter of "Oh we have this religious practice and over time it's become part of business" it was a business and religious practice from its inception.

I agree. But I also feel it is important to note that modern banking participating in this practice is a professional institution keeping a religious practice. I do not feel that the date of the practice's origins effects it's status as a religious practice blending in with business.

Yes, modern ISLAMIC banking institutions. I honestly can think of no Western banking company that is taking up the practice of getting ride of usury.

As ncsweet has said, the businesses in question are not inherently Christian businesses; that surprise comes after one has already entered. And there really isn't precedence in Christianity for splashing one's faith up on the walls of their business. Rather, if they wanted to stick to the way Christianity was spread, they would be going and spreading it via word of mouth.

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As an addendum, I feel that this expresses itself as a double standard in society.
When an Asian restaurant has religious iconography, or a nail salon has a Buddhist shrine, it's tolerated far better than what we are seeing here.

I would be interested in reading other's opinions on if their shrines should be dismantled or hidden.

I would argue that in those instances it is tolerated a bit better because 1) those are not proselytizing faiths and 2) those symbols can be and are just as much cultural icons as they are religious icons.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Violet Song jat Shariff

I suppose it would depend on how much profit they would actually want to make.

I agree with you. In that case, if I feel I do not wish to do business with them, then I am free to do so, and they can enjoy their freedom to hang posters as they please.

Violet Song jat Shariff

I'm sorry, I said a good, compelling reason.

I am sure for them following their religious path is a good and compelling reason.

Violet Song jat Shariff

I would say that claiming that one's conscience is a good, compelling reason for things opens up a huge ******** Pandora's Box.

And I feel that it would be valid up until it victimized others.

If their beliefs infringe upon another's rights, then I cannot support them. However, I do not feel this situation is remotely close to that.

Violet Song jat Shariff

That's nice.
Is there a reason we should take the way you feel at face value or are you willing to explain in depth WHY you feel that way?

I apologize. For clarification, I feel that they are acting within their path and their actions are not directly harming anyone. I feel that because of this, their actions should be protected. I also feel that any discomfort we feel is inside of us, and we should deal with it there- rather than doing what we so dislike about them and inflicting it on those around us.

I see that as the only way to avoid hypocrisy.

Violet Song jat Shariff

See, I do. I have to wonder what one hopes to gain by spreading information about their misfortunes/weaknesses around for everyone to see. Doesn't seem a particularly wise or helpful thing to do.

Sometimes it is about accountability. If people understand your faults, they can support you in overcoming them.

I find it unlikely that this is the case, but I also feel that if it helps them or not, it isn't effecting me any more than I choose to allow it to, and that any discomfort I feel with them should be addressed so I could heal.

Violet Song jat Shariff

In displaying things in such an obvious, glaring way, it ceases to be about what is right for them and bleeds over into them deciding what is right for everyone who enters their establishment.

But that is what is right for them- they feel their position is the correct one and they are trying to help.

Violet Song jat Shariff

Not everything heals. Not everything NEEDS to heal. To simply suggest "deal and heal" is mildly insulting to the issue.
Why not suggest that the business owners need to explore their feelings of turbulence in their faith and heal?

I believe they should as well, but I felt that was outside of the scope of the topic.

Could you explain why it is insulting to suggest that healing is important? I am afraid I don't understand.

Violet Song jat Shariff

Yes, modern ISLAMIC banking institutions. I honestly can think of no Western banking company that is taking up the practice of getting ride of usury.

I understand. I used it as an example because there are places where businesses do not separate themselves form their religious practices. I included it because I wanted to provide an example where ethics did not prohibit the blending of religious and professional standards.

Violet Song jat Shariff

As ncsweet has said, the businesses in question are not inherently Christian businesses; that surprise comes after one has already entered. And there really isn't precedence in Christianity for splashing one's faith up on the walls of their business. Rather, if they wanted to stick to the way Christianity was spread, they would be going and spreading it via word of mouth.

I don't feel there needs to be a precedence for them to adapt to modern culture any more than any of us need a precedence to use a computer to talk about ancient religions or ancient cultures. I feel it would make more sense to instead come up with a reason that the religious expressions should be limited to what was found in ancient times since people carried the religion forward through time, they did not do so devoid of other influences.

Even the Amish use designs that weren't part of ancient Christianity.

Violet Song jat Shariff

I would argue that in those instances it is tolerated a bit better because 1) those are not proselytizing faiths and 2) those symbols can be and are just as much cultural icons as they are religious icons.

Why would the desire for people to help others see their truth be a reason to respond with intolerance?