Pagan Manners

[VwolfV]

Jishin

Starlock

5) Be sure to consider deitary needs:

Yep. My deity will definitely want Coke and Twinkies at ritual. wink

Sorry, the typo was priceless.

That's awesome, Jishin!

I think mine prefer alchohol and pizza, but it is so hard getting them to agree on toppings! HAHA!  

[TeaDidikai]

Deoridhe

Starlock

I've got no problem with the debate itself, its the rudeness I can't stand sometimes.

I have issue with this. Why is it rude to ask someone "What Rroma tribe are you in?" and not rude to lie, claim a heritage that isn't yours, and use racial slurs?

Because we're not really people Deo. If someone has no respect to authority- anyone asking for said respect is being rude, while someone being willfully ignorant has every right to do so.  

[Starlock]

rolleyes Good grief... someone appears to be misunderstanding the point... (coughs)

Should I go back and fix that typeo or something? (laughs) I didn't spellcheck the thing before I posted it... I don't usually spellcheck posts. Just takes all that extra effort ya know.

There's gotta be something someone has as an idea to add to this list... or did I compile it from so many sources that all bases are covered?  

[TeaDidikai]

Starlock- I think that would be you.

Could you please address the issues Deo and I have raised?  

[Starlock]

Apologies... but I haven't because I already said exactly what I had to say on the matter and it appears it wasn't quite understood as I thought it would be. So again, I repeat:

Be respectful of people, regardless. I've got no problem with the debate itself. It's the rudeness I can't stand.

When you braught up the example, did I ever say that it *was* rude to ask what "Rroma tribe" (or whatever) you're in? Nope. Did I ever say it *wasn't* rude/improper to claim heritage that isn't yours? Nope. Questioning is fine; I thought I made that clear already. It's context and content that is the key. Just plain be respectful of people as I said before. Hope that clears up any miscommunication.  

[TeaDidikai]

Not really. I do not see it as right, ethical or any other moral standard buzz word that might be attached to be "respectful" of individuals who use racial slurs and lay claim to an ethnicity that a person does not belong to.

There's a difference between being curious and not knowing any better- and being a total asrsehat. I think it's ignorant, arrogent or perhaps a mix of both to preach to the pagan scene about "respect" and "manners" when 1) Odds are our mommies and daddies did that long ago, and 2) The kind of respect you imply with the tone and structure of your posts suggests that we aren't allowed to call bullshit.

There is not enough money in the world to make me respect a twit that flounces around in a flowy skirt and says her Grandmother was a mysterious, exotic "gypsy".  

[Sivirs]

TeaDidikai

There is not enough money in the world to make me respect a twit that flounces around in a flowy skirt and says her Grandmother was a mysterious, exotic "gypsy".

I'd get shot by family members if I did that.

Gypsies aren't seen as particularly nice, unless you need to curse someone, in which case you run to the nearest gypsy going OMGZ0RZ I NEED SPELLZ HLP PLZ!1!1!

Maybe that's what I should've done as a teenager to rebel. Paganism didn't faze my parents none, but going "MOM I'M GONNA GO JOIN A ROVING BAND OF GYPSIES" would've been cause for heart attacks.

The unique joys of immigrating from eastern europe to the US as an only child. xd  

[TeaDidikai]

Sivirs

TeaDidikai

There is not enough money in the world to make me respect a twit that flounces around in a flowy skirt and says her Grandmother was a mysterious, exotic "gypsy".

I'd get shot by family members if I did that.

Gypsies aren't seen as particularly nice, unless you need to curse someone, in which case you run to the nearest gypsy going OMGZ0RZ I NEED SPELLZ HLP PLZ!1!1!

Maybe that's what I should've done as a teenager to rebel. Paganism didn't faze my parents none, but going "MOM I'M GONNA GO JOIN A ROVING BAND OF GYPSIES" would've been cause for heart attacks.

The unique joys of immigrating from eastern europe to the US as an only child. xd

Pst... you do realize I am part Domari, right?  

[Sivirs]

TeaDidikai

Pst... you do realize I am part Domari, right?

Yup, you've said so many times.

Just sayin'. Even TRYING to do the "OMGZ I IZ GYPSY" thing in my house would've been disastrous. So it's strange to me that people would want to pretend to the point of alienating people who DO have the heritage, since the Gypsy thing got such a bad rap where the people, y'know, actually historically would've been a lot.

It seems silly, is all, coming from where my family did. I never got the mysterious and exotic gypsy thing, I always got hammered with the "Gypsies are all thieves and liars and you don't wanna be like them" thing instead, which was just.. far more prominent a stereotype than the former. I was more than a little befuddled when I first got into Paganism and there were all these people being like MY FAMILY IS GYPSIES N STUF.  

[TeaDidikai]

Allow me to rephrase- every time you use the racial slur. I twitch.  

[Memento Mortalis Es]

Tea, stop it. You seem to be very good at steering threads away from the original intent by getting indignant over other people not getting that "gypsy" is a slur. I'm not saying that you don't have a valid point. I'm just saying that if you have a problem with someone else's erroneous word usage, take it up with that person over PM's. Or try putting the phrase "The word 'gypsy' is an ethnic slur" or something more your style in your sig, since you probably want to sound forceful. Get angry and indignant as much as you want, you have a right to, but keep it away from unrelated discussion.  

[TeaDidikai]

Manhattan

Tea, stop it.

Respectfully- no.

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You seem to be very good at steering threads away from the original intent by getting indignant over other people not getting that "gypsy" is a slur. I'm not saying that you don't have a valid point. I'm just saying that if you have a problem with someone else's erroneous word usage, take it up with that person over PM's.

Battle ignorance and bigotry where you find it. By the way- you are unaware of how many times I do correct people directly in PMs. Your assertion is disproportionate.

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Or try putting the phrase "The word 'gypsy' is an ethnic slur" or something more your style in your sig, since you probably want to sound forceful.

I will not. My battles are fought where they fall. I need not go looking for them.

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Get angry and indignant as much as you want, you have a right to, but keep it away from unrelated discussion.

There is an organic nature to discussion you seem to be ignoring.  

[Deoridhe]

Manhattan

You seem to be very good at steering threads away from the original intent by getting indignant over other people not getting that "gypsy" is a slur.

Actually, I'd say whether a community condones using racial slurs or not is a big part of manners. The question is whether one considers "disruption" - defined as informing someone their behavior is fundamentally offensive due to centuries of ingrained discrimination - less mannerly than bigotry.

I think that, unfortunately, a lot of fluffy pagans would fall on the side of disruption being more rude; when the focus of the community is on everyone feeling good about themselves, pointing out a member of the community is a bigot - however ignorant they are of it - would be unwelcome.

The question is how this is different from other possible scenarios; what about a person of Northern European descent, born and raise in the USA, dancing around in block-dyed cloth saying, "I'm a ******!!!" or that same person wearing a black wig and a kimono saying, "I'm a Jap!!!"? Since more people are aware that "******" and "jap" are racial slurs, does that make it appropriate for the community to step up? Should only well publicised bigotry be combatted? Is a community that condones bigotry for the sake of getting along any kind of community worth having? Is it good manners to not express bigotry in a public place?  

[Starlock]

Deoridhe

Since more people are aware that "******" and "jap" are racial slurs, does that make it appropriate for the community to step up? Should only well publicised bigotry be combatted? Is a community that condones bigotry for the sake of getting along any kind of community worth having? Is it good manners to not express bigotry in a public place?

Hah. At the time Tea braught this whole thing up I had no clue what she was getting so uppity about with the slur thing, frankly. I'd agree it is relevant to the topic but I suppose had it been presented differently I would have seen that more clearly.

Pointing out bigotry is a real touchy thing. When doing so, the main thing is to do what I mentioned earlier: be polite about it. Otherwise, there's a good chance the person won't listen to you (and plus if you're an a** about it you become, in some respects, as bad as they are). Sometimes the sittuation might warrant differently, but its good to err on the cautious side.

As for which prejudices to combat... any of them. However, I'd suggest for Tea, as a fighter against use of the term "gypsy" that she instead present the education in the form of a question: "Did you know that word is an ethnic slur?" and my guess is that most people will say something like "No, I'll remember that; what's the polite term for those people?" While we may all be prejudiced in some way, sometimes through lack of knowledge or awareness we don't know it. I like to give people a break and the benefit of the doubt until they decidedly prove themselves to be asses. And even then I tend to forgive them for it. People make mistakes.  

[TeaDidikai]

Starlock

Hah. At the time Tea braught this whole thing up I had no clue what she was getting so uppity about with the slur thing, frankly. I'd agree it is relevant to the topic but I suppose had it been presented differently I would have seen that more clearly.

The reason it was presented as such is because it extends to Lineaged Wicca as well as far as the Lineaged Wiccans are concerned.

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Pointing out bigotry is a real touchy thing. When doing so, the main thing is to do what I mentioned earlier: be polite about it. Otherwise, there's a good chance the person won't listen to you

As both the ethnicity of the Rroma and the nature of Wicca have shown, they don't. They justify their use. "Oh- well, that's not really what that word means- it's just a lifestyle" "I don't care about what Gardner had to say- The Lord and The Lady are the ones who make me Wiccan no matter what you tell me."

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(and plus if you're an a** about it you become, in some respects, as bad as they are).

Foul. I will never be as bad as a member of Aryan Nation. It's that whole anti-racism thing I got goin'.

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As for which prejudices to combat... any of them. However, I'd suggest for Tea, as a fighter against use of the term "gypsy" that she instead present the education in the form of a question: "Did you know that word is an ethnic slur?" and my guess is that most people will say something like "No, I'll remember that; what's the polite term for those people?"

You would be amazed. I mean, in just another thread yourself you attempted to justify the use of the word after all. I don't think you're a bigot. I just think that people like being unaware because it means they don't have to change.

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And even then I tend to forgive them for it. People make mistakes.

My path doesn't ask such of me.