Ritual Question?

[Bastemhet]

Fiddlers Green

Okay, let's assume a universal ebb and flow of energy.
I shall call it Vis.
Vis is in all things, it is a part of all things. It flows about the world, and pools and eddies in areas or beings.
The Geomancy of an area is the natural currents alongst which it flows. Not unlike naturally occurring rivers and streams.
In some such areas, water may be added to or taken away in certain quantities without appreciably damaging the ecosystem. Especially if it is the same kind of water (fresh or salt).
However, take too much, or introduce too much, or of the wrong kind, and you can damage the ecosystem in horrible ways.
The same works with Vis and Geomancy.
Instead of fish getting disturbed by their now dehydrated or saline environ, however, it is anything that is part of the local Geomancy.
Does that help at all?

How would one measure this?  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

How would one measure this?

Geomancy for a start. wink  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

How would one measure this?

Geomancy for a start. wink

*ignorant alarm* eek

OK, where do I learn about this?  

[TeaDidikai]

Sophist

TeaDidikai

Sophist

How would one measure this?

Geomancy for a start. wink

*ignorant alarm* eek

OK, where do I learn about this?

Depends on the system.

I'm not familiar with any Kemetic practice that could be called Geomancy. Not to say there isn't one. I just don't have one that comes to mind at the moment.  

[Bastemhet]

TeaDidikai

Sophist

TeaDidikai

Sophist

How would one measure this?

Geomancy for a start. wink

*ignorant alarm* eek

OK, where do I learn about this?

Depends on the system.

I'm not familiar with any Kemetic practice that could be called Geomancy. Not to say there isn't one. I just don't have one that comes to mind at the moment.

I guess an even better question would be what is it. Maybe with a description I can find something similar.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Sophist

I guess an even better question would be what is it. Maybe with a description I can find something similar.

Fair warning, this is going to be a little fluffy and involve a small amount of misappropriation, as my communication talents and skills are limited, but I wish to attempt to address this. In other words, take a grain of salt and forgive any offense in this.
Feng Shui might be considered a type of applied geomancy.
Any sacred architecture is geomancy.
Not building your home in a flood plain is geomancy.

The beginnings of studying geomancy are of the utmost ease. Learn geology. Study the interactions of the natural world, winds, rain, rivers, earthquakes, fire-plains. See how they interact with one another. Internalize the connection between flooding in a cave in Arkansas and the water table in a state hundreds of miles to it's north. It is all about comprehending the interaction between observables. Once you have a solid grasp there, then attempt to reduce your understanding to an interplay of energies. The essential energy of the river, the way it brings energy from elsewhere to a forest downstream. This is what we(exclusive) call Vis. The river and the trees are the observable components, but look how they interact with the vis that moves thru them. Use these observables, render natural interactions down to their Vis interactions. Apply this. Quicksilver reacts easily to pressure, heat gives rise to more pressure in the air. A tool to measure heat in the air can be engineered from liquid cinnabar using these principles. Now, look for other correlations and apply them. This is how anyone can measure many different aspects of geomancy.
Now, if you are a functional animist, you can circumnavigate this a bit and just ask the Geni what's going on. Then again, their answers may be difficult to parse for awhile, but that is tangential.
There are other ways one can study this, but I suggest mastering the most widely available and most universally observable first.  

[TeaDidikai]

In addition to Fiddler's comments, I would add there are actual forms of divination that exist solely to measure and respond to "Vis" or what would be appropriate for the tradition.  

[Bastemhet]

OK. I do understand that there would necessarily be different flows of energy depending on the environment. I think by reading your comments I begin to question what a spell is. Where would the energy raised go? I don't understand the moving from an abstract concept to a physical outcome. e.g. If someone did a spell to help them find a job that suits their needs, where would this energy go? Would it disperse? Would it stay contained? Or is it only functional because one believes it to be true?  

[Fiddlers Green]

Sophist

OK. I do understand that there would necessarily be different flows of energy depending on the environment. I think by reading your comments I begin to question what a spell is. Where would the energy raised go? I don't understand the moving from an abstract concept to a physical outcome. e.g. If someone did a spell to help them find a job that suits their needs, where would this energy go? Would it disperse? Would it stay contained?

And those are my worries exactly!
All these people, poking around and prying at things, neither knowing nor caring what damage their alteration of the delicate balance of Vis in the area may cause. I am ill with the frequency that I had to repair the fabric of my environ from such irresponsible experimentation. Which is why I largely don't allow people to do much in my area anymore.
Also, you are working in reverse. Do not start at the abstract concept. Start with the observables. Observe them. Understand them. Now, look for constants that exist between the interactions. Always remember there is no coincidence, merely the illusion thereof. Find the pattern. I am forbidden from spelling this out directly, however, once you have it, it is the simplest of all things. You might think it cannot be because of how very obvious and easy it seems.
There is a reason snowflakes are hexagonal. There is a reason loadstone seeks the poles. There is a reason our Sun burns. Find these reasons, and distill them down to the same reason.
I can say little else other than it is so very beautiful, I am moved to tears.

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Or is it only functional because one believes it to be true?

Will-working tends to use an internalized Vis, your own. You batter the local Vis into reacting. For some people, it is as intuitive as a child biting the head off a gummi bear. For others, it is a highly trained and understood effect. Batter isn't always the correct word, just what I have had to clean up after most.  

[Aino Ailill]

What are load stones? What poles do they seek? The North and South, or physical poles such as that hold up telephone wires?  

[Bastemhet]

Fiddlers Green

All these people, poking around and prying at things, neither knowing nor caring what damage their alteration of the delicate balance of Vis in the area may cause. I am ill with the frequency that I had to repair the fabric of my environ from such irresponsible experimentation. Which is why I largely don't allow people to do much in my area anymore.

How was it damaged, and what did you do to fix it, if you don't mind my asking?

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Also, you are working in reverse. Do not start at the abstract concept. Start with the observables. Observe them. Understand them.

For me that's a difficult thing to do. I start with theory first, and once I understand that, I apply it to a functional process. I don't know if I can observe without understanding the why first. Otherwise I might not understand what I'm observing.

Quote:

Always remember there is no coincidence, merely the illusion thereof.

What is your justification for this?

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I am forbidden from spelling this out directly, however, once you have it, it is the simplest of all things. You might think it cannot be because of how very obvious and easy it seems.
There is a reason snowflakes are hexagonal. There is a reason loadstone seeks the poles. There is a reason our Sun burns. Find these reasons, and distill them down to the same reason.
I can say little else other than it is so very beautiful, I am moved to tears.

OK, so there are patterns in nature, but aren't there random things as well? How do we account for that?

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Or is it only functional because one believes it to be true?

Will-working tends to use an internalized Vis, your own. You batter the local Vis into reacting. For some people, it is as intuitive as a child biting the head off a gummi bear. For others, it is a highly trained and understood effect. Batter isn't always the correct word, just what I have had to clean up after most.

Hmm...I think from a Kemetic spell working stand point, words themselves have power. So if I were to curse someone I would just have to utter things that would happen to them to help push fate into making them come true. I don't know if some of this energy would be a consequence of my will or the vibrating effect of the words coming into reality. I am not really an expert yet on this subject, though, but would like your input in this context.  

[TeaDidikai]

Aino Ailill

What are load stones?

Also known as lodestones? Naturally occurring magnets with the structure of Fe3O4.

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What poles do they seek? The North and South, or physical poles such as that hold up telephone wires?

confused I can't tell if you're joking or not! gonk

Ferromagnetic materials don't so much seek as they orient their poles to the surrounding magnetic fields.  

[Fiddlers Green]

Okay, we are starting to get into some territory that is bound by oath of secrecy, and part of it I consider inappropriate to post in the realm of lightning and innovation, so my answers may seem brief or vague.

Sophist

How was it damaged, and what did you do to fix it, if you don't mind my asking?

So, the channels that were accustom to wind and water were being forced to accommodate vis in configurations they were never meant to. Sorta like if you pump oil thru a water line, then you must clean it out so it doesn't taint the water. As far as fixing, first I isolated those lines, by establishing temporary divergent lines and then went thru and picked the vis apart and laid the ground work so the natural web could mend over time. I could have done it quicker, but it would have been less harmonius with the environs. Now, as for the specifics of what I did, that involves a few iron stakes, planting 5 trees, cutting two down, readjusting the path of a small stream and about a months worth of moving rocks.

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For me that's a difficult thing to do. I start with theory first, and once I understand that, I apply it to a functional process. I don't know if I can observe without understanding the why first. Otherwise I might not understand what I'm observing.

In geomancy, that is dangerous.
How is the predecessor to Why in this case. Working in reverse is like a blind person asking why light behaves the way it does. Taking geomancy in the purely abstract divorces it from most of what it is.
Even if I had not given my word not to (yet) teach what I have been taught, I would not directly divulge it. The process of learning is just as important as the end result, if the knowledge comes without a full appreciation for the system it works in, then it is a disaster waiting to happen.

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What is your justification for this?

Disregard that then.

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OK, so there are patterns in nature, but aren't there random things as well? How do we account for that?

No.
There are things we do not have the conventional tools for observing the system they function within.
Just because we fail to quantify something does not mean it does not exist.
That is the type of hubris I have to clean up after constantly.

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Hmm...I think from a Kemetic spell working stand point, words themselves have power. So if I were to curse someone I would just have to utter things that would happen to them to help push fate into making them come true. I don't know if some of this energy would be a consequence of my will or the vibrating effect of the words coming into reality. I am not really an expert yet on this subject, though, but would like your input in this context.

A "spell" works for one of three reasons (or some combination thereof).
1. You force your will upon the world and it reacts.
2. You perform an act that due to the specifics of the interplay of vis, has a reaction. Such as adding baking soda to vinegar, it is a matter of simple exchange once you know the formulae.
3. The act causes some other entity to act on your behalf using "powers" that are native to it or that it has learned.
It may be the specific words, or the harmonic resonance, or it may be your will, or it may be some bored Geni deciding to enforce it on a whim. To tell you for certain, I would need to have you perform the curse several hundreds of times in a very controlled environ. Or I would have to subject you to incredibly invasive scrying.
Neither of which I am willing to do to another living being for matters so petty. further, the tools I would need are expensive, or involve debts I am not willing to take on right now.
Also, I find curses distasteful, so would not stomach the process.

Aino Ailill, Tea covered the questions fairly well.
Lodestones are natural magnets. The poles they seek are the magnetic North and South. The rest is a riddle, so no more clues from me. wink  

[TeaDidikai]

Hey Fiddler, I did forget to mention that said stones could seek other poles, especially if they were ferrous. rofl  

[Bastemhet]

Fiddlers Green

Okay, we are starting to get into some territory that is bound by oath of secrecy, and part of it I consider inappropriate to post in the realm of lightning and innovation, so my answers may seem brief or vague.

Thank you for sharing what you have.

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Sophist

How was it damaged, and what did you do to fix it, if you don't mind my asking?

So, the channels that were accustom to wind and water were being forced to accommodate vis in configurations they were never meant to. Sorta like if you pump oil thru a water line, then you must clean it out so it doesn't taint the water. As far as fixing, first I isolated those lines, by establishing temporary divergent lines and then went thru and picked the vis apart and laid the ground work so the natural web could mend over time. I could have done it quicker, but it would have been less harmonius with the environs. Now, as for the specifics of what I did, that involves a few iron stakes, planting 5 trees, cutting two down, readjusting the path of a small stream and about a months worth of moving rocks.

This does help me to understand it more concretely.

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For me that's a difficult thing to do. I start with theory first, and once I understand that, I apply it to a functional process. I don't know if I can observe without understanding the why first. Otherwise I might not understand what I'm observing.

In geomancy, that is dangerous.
How is the predecessor to Why in this case. Working in reverse is like a blind person asking why light behaves the way it does. Taking geomancy in the purely abstract divorces it from most of what it is.
Even if I had not given my word not to (yet) teach what I have been taught, I would not directly divulge it. The process of learning is just as important as the end result, if the knowledge comes without a full appreciation for the system it works in, then it is a disaster waiting to happen.

I'm confused- it's dangerous to do spellworking without interacting with the lay of the land, but on the other hand you're saying it's dangerous to do this without understanding the lay of the land before this?

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OK, so there are patterns in nature, but aren't there random things as well? How do we account for that?

No.
There are things we do not have the conventional tools for observing the system they function within.
Just because we fail to quantify something does not mean it does not exist.
That is the type of hubris I have to clean up after constantly.

I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, but isn't it dangerous to make a positive claim as well if there isn't a conventional way of measuring it that is peer reviewed? Are you referring to something like those metal bars you hold that waver when there's a disturbance (can't remember what they're called) or a pendulum?

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A "spell" works for one of three reasons (or some combination thereof).
1. You force your will upon the world and it reacts.
2. You perform an act that due to the specifics of the interplay of vis, has a reaction. Such as adding baking soda to vinegar, it is a matter of simple exchange once you know the formulae.
3. The act causes some other entity to act on your behalf using "powers" that are native to it or that it has learned.
It may be the specific words, or the harmonic resonance, or it may be your will, or it may be some bored Geni deciding to enforce it on a whim. To tell you for certain, I would need to have you perform the curse several hundreds of times in a very controlled environ. Or I would have to subject you to incredibly invasive scrying.
Neither of which I am willing to do to another living being for matters so petty. further, the tools I would need are expensive, or involve debts I am not willing to take on right now.
Also, I find curses distasteful, so would not stomach the process.

Could you tell me more about harmonic resonance? This seems to be in line with the idea of "word power." How would this affect Vis?

What about stones or other natural items that people use to make amulets? Do they have inherent Vis or does Vis work through them in an altered flow once they have been tampered with to produce a desired effect?

Are you familiar with Reiki? Would you say Reiki is synonymous to Vis or is it different?

I am not prone to curses either. I figure those people, through their stupidity, suffer enough as it is. But there are other instances in which using a spell as an added boost to whatever effort I'm already undertaking would be helpful. On the other hand I don't want to do anything that would be harmful to my environment.

Thank you for your patience thus far!
sweatdrop