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 Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:57 am
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too2sweet If the Trad coven decided that these other people had studied sufficiently and that they all had the makings of being a "proper person", then it is within their right to initiate the members. Obviously it's not the most orthodox way of doing things, but experience can count for something if it is the right experience. I would point out however, that if they were indeed initiated by the Trad coven, then that is what gives them the right to claim lineaged Wiccan status. Also it is not the coven itself that would be initiated, but the members of the coven. I would also say that just because a coven or person claims to be Wiccan, doesn't necessarily make it so. Do you possibly have a link to the coven or an article on the subject, I'd really be interested in looking into it.
I agree with you, that claiming to be is not enough, but they did not have any other opportunity, and yes it was a shortcuts with "initiating coven" but what I meant was that they where initiated and got the right not to joining the mother coven but already to create (continue) the new one.
Unfortunately I have no link as I got a personal relation about it from the woman from the trad coven.
However my question was the beginning- can you take away from people the right of learning in wicca, who are very active on getting information and finding reliable sources the right to call themselves wiccans if they did not even got a chance to be part of lineage coven?
Mea
btw again nice avie smile |
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Posted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:48 pm
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:07 am
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too2sweet Thanks biggrin The problem is that there are certain oath bound aspects of the Wiccan practices (such as the mysteries themselves and the names of the God and Goddess) that have never been published in books or on the internet. So there is no way that you would just randomly come across the information unless you knew someone who was an oath breaker. You can only learn them when you are initiated. If you spend time studying the things that have been published, there is nothing stopping anyone from creating a Pagan coven, Eclectic coven, or just a coven of Witches. It just wouldn't be appropriate to call themselves Wiccan (and especially not call themselves Trad).
So if they don't call themselves trad, why can't they call themselves wiccans? They are no witches, and "pure pagans" if they follow all of publicized wicca beliefs. They accept and believe in things that witches and rest of pagans does not.
As about the names- they've been already changed from what I know, and I much agree with opinion that they were given by Gardner, so I don't think if it's so important. As for the oaths- I watched the interesting conversation, while two of initiated wiccans came to conclusion, that the worse in breaking the oath is not sharing the confidential info, but talking about ritual and in that way taking away from person chance to experience it purely. So I guess the weight of the oath is put somewhere else than you put it.
Mea |
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:55 pm
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Violet Song jat Shariff Crew
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Posted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:01 pm
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Verbeley However my question was the beginning- can you take away from people the right of learning in wicca, who are very active on getting information and finding reliable sources the right to call themselves wiccans if they did not even got a chance to be part of lineage coven?
I wouldn't say learning about Wicca is a right; if you can find a coven within reasonable traveling distance that will accept you, I'd say it was more of a privilege.
As Sweet said, they are at best getting outer-court information, which isn't really what Wicca is about. So while they might be getting reliable outer-court information, they still have no grounds to take on the title of Wiccan if they have not been initiated. They would be calling themselves something they have no right to call themselves, so really there isn't anything to take away; you can't take away what someone never had.
Quote: So if they don't call themselves trad, why can't they call themselves wiccans? They are no witches, and "pure pagans" if they follow all of publicized wicca beliefs. They accept and believe in things that witches and rest of pagans does not
Erm, because Wicca is something specific; I think one of the major reasons that the tag of "Traditional" was tacked on to Wicca was to differentiate real, actual Wicca from silly teenaged "whatever-you-want-it-to-be" "Wicca." If you don't meet the requirements of a religion, you don't really have any right to call yourself an adherent of that religion.
As for oaths, the Traditional Wiccans I know stick to their oaths hardcore. I wouldn't dare ask a one of them something that would cause them to betray their oaths. I would ask one to check his/her own moral compass if they think it's perfectly acceptable to ask someone to become an oath-breaker just to sate their own curiosity. I would also be wary of taking the word of someone who thinks it is okay to renege on their oaths and who are a-okay with being labeled an oath-breaker. |
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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:54 am
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too2sweet The word Pagan does not describe a specific set of beliefs or practices. It encompasses all paths/religions that are based on non-Abrahamic beliefs. Witchcraft also isn't a set practice and there are many things that make up the "practice" of witchcraft (many of which are found in Wicca). All Wiccans are pagans, and most Witches are pagans, if the coven were following what they read in the books then it would be perfectly acceptable for them to call themselves Pagans and/or Witches.
You're right, but witchcraft contrary to wicca is not a religion, someone who consider her/him self wiccan and tries to follow that path, by creating a coven does it in the right of his/her beliefs and so it's set in religion system, and as such no longer can be just a witchcraft.
I know paganism is very wide term, but again. The set of beliefs in wicca are common only for wicca, which means when you follow them then, you can be other.
Ultraviolett1127 I wouldn't say learning about Wicca is a right; if you can find a coven within reasonable traveling distance that will accept you, I'd say it was more of a privilege. As Sweet said, they are at best getting outer-court information, which isn't really what Wicca is about. So while they might be getting reliable outer-court information, they still have no grounds to take on the title of Wiccan if they have not been initiated. They would be calling themselves something they have no right to call themselves, so really there isn't anything to take away; you can't take away what someone never had. Erm, because Wicca is something specific; I think one of the major reasons that the tag of "Traditional" was tacked on to Wicca was to differentiate real, actual Wicca from silly teenaged "whatever-you-want-it-to-be" "Wicca."
I would say the distance of 700 km isn't fair one, not mention the language barrier for most (and I'm not talking about english).
Of course you can't loose what you had that's why you're cuckold, aren't you? But it's not like that. They're not calling themselves a trad wiccans, or try to pretend one the are not. But if you already made those two term... See here we are not a talking about 15 years old teenagers, but people who've been practicing magic (wicca) for ten or more years, who spend time and money on searching, learning and experiencing. And this is what you are talking from them, the years of practice and believe. From what I know, this is actually the most important in wicca. Plus those people are mostly not calling themselves wiccans directly, but people how follow the wicca path.
As for what's wicca is about, or rather what everything is about. You have no guarantee that even joining a lineage coven, makes you experience the "true" wicca, or whatever else. You can never be sure about some things.
Quote: As for oaths, the Traditional Wiccans I know stick to their oaths hardcore. I wouldn't dare ask a one of them something that would cause them to betray their oaths. I would ask one to check his/her own moral compass if they think it's perfectly acceptable to ask someone to become an oath-breaker just to sate their own curiosity. I would also be wary of taking the word of someone who thinks it is okay to renege on their oaths and who are a-okay with being labeled an oath-breaker.
I'm not pretty sure why have you put that. I know they are stick, and I don't even see a point in asking (it's simply stupid), But what I meant, was that we may consider the oaths from the wrong point.
One more thing if you already use the terms of trad wiccans and wiccans, why can't you allow to use the term wiccan for those who were not initiated. Cause then who's trad?
Mea |
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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:42 pm
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Posted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:02 pm
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Verbeley I would say the distance of 700 km isn't fair one, not mention the language barrier for most (and I'm not talking about english). Of course you can't loose what you had that's why you're cuckold, aren't you? But it's not like that. They're not calling themselves a trad wiccans, or try to pretend one the are not.
But they are trying to co-opt the term "Wiccan" which means something very specific; Wicca is a specific orthopraxic religion and if you do not practice in that certain way then you're simply not Wiccan. It doesn't matter how hard you believe you're Wiccan or how long you've been reading Cunningham and Buckland...if you're not initiated you're not Wiccan and have no rights to claim the title. If would be like if someone took a few Biology classes in college and really really wished they were a neuro-surgeon, so they go about calling themselves a neuro-surgeon.
Quote: But if you already made those two term... See here we are not a talking about 15 years old teenagers, but people who've been practicing magic (wicca) for ten or more years
Great then they practice magic.
Practicing magic =|=Wicca
Quote: who spend time and money on searching, learning and experiencing. And this is what you are talking from them, the years of practice and believe.
If all of this time money and effort spent doesn't actually teach them the Mysteries of Wicca, then they've unfortunately spent all of that time, money, and effort becoming ENPs. Time, effort and money spent pursuing a topic does not trump learning the actual information.
I sound heartless, but I really don't care if they've devoted 50 years to learning "Wicca." Wicca is not a feel-good hug-box for people.
If they're not initiated they're not Wiccan and they have no right to the terms. They don't know the Mysteries. They don't know the correct ritual structure. They don't know anything that a typical initiated Wiccan would know, so why in the world should they co-opt the title?
Quote: From what I know, this is actually the most important in wicca. Plus those people are mostly not calling themselves wiccans directly, but people how follow the wicca path.
No, initiation and then learning the correct practice is the most important in Wicca; it is only through the orthopraxy that one knows how to experience the Mysteries.
Unless they're initiated they're not following the "Wiccan path." They're following a perfectly valid ENP path, but it's certainly not Wicca, and they should call themselves ENPs.
Quote: As for what's wicca is about, or rather what everything is about. You have no guarantee that even joining a lineage coven, makes you experience the "true" wicca, or whatever else. You can never be sure about some things.
If you're practicing within the correct ritual structure then yes, you should be experiencing the Mysteries; practicing in the correct ritual structure for the Mysteries has a greater success rate than free-balling a ritual.
How would ENPs even know what Mysteries they needed to learn if they're not initiated? They would be taking huge stabs in the dark.
If people were 100% sure about the Mysteries and had facts to prove that one could indeed experience them, then it would cease to be faith and a religion.
Quote: I'm not pretty sure why have you put that. I know they are stick, and I don't even see a point in asking (it's simply stupid), But what I meant, was that we may consider the oaths from the wrong point.
From what you had typed, I thought you were saying that to the Wiccans in question, that the spreading of knowledge is more important than keeping their oaths.
A Wiccan is bound by oath to protect their faith and keep the Mysteries; how can there be different interpretations of that?
Quote: One more thing if you already use the terms of trad wiccans and wiccans, why can't you allow to use the term wiccan for those who were not initiated. Cause then who's trad?
It's not like the term "Trad Wiccan" was created for shits and giggles; it was, as I said earlier, to differentiate between actual Wiccans and pretending Wiccans. Just because the term was refined to tell the difference does not mean that now it's okay for people to take a title they have no right to. Those who have no rights to the word have no right to it because they don't practice in the correct way that is Wicca. |
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Violet Song jat Shariff Crew
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:54 am
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:25 am
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Ultraviolett1127 But they are trying to co-opt the term "Wiccan" which means something very specific; Wicca is a specific orthopraxic religion and if you do not practice in that certain way then you're simply not Wiccan. It doesn't matter how hard you believe you're Wiccan or how long you've been reading Cunningham and Buckland...if you're not initiated you're not Wiccan and have no rights to claim the title. If would be like if someone took a few Biology classes in college and really really wished they were a neuro-surgeon, so they go about calling themselves a neuro-surgeon.
So you’re saying neuro-surgeons are orthopraxic religion. I had some suspicions about that, but now you made me sure. twisted
Quote: Practicing magic =|=Wicca
Shortcuts- it meant- they were practicing wicca, but from you point it could not be called more that magic. And I know magic means no wicca and I was marking that several times already.
Quote: If all of this time money and effort spent doesn't actually teach them the Mysteries of Wicca, then they've unfortunately spent all of that time, money, and effort becoming ENPs. Time, effort and money spent pursuing a topic does not trump learning the actual information. I sound heartless, but I really don't care if they've devoted 50 years to learning "Wicca." Wicca is not a feel-good hug-box for people. If they're not initiated they're not Wiccan and they have no right to the terms. They don't know the Mysteries. They don't know the correct ritual structure. They don't know anything that a typical initiated Wiccan would know, so why in the world should they co-opt the title?
Wicca is a decelerated religion and in this declaration, they had to put the basics of their beliefs, so it’s not like you don’t know nothing, moreover there were at lest few black sheep in that happy family, and by comparing their works you are at least in 90% find some more about wicca. Seeking is one of virtue isn’t it?
Quote: No, initiation and then learning the correct practice is the most important in Wicca; it is only through the orthopraxy that one knows how to experience the Mysteries.
Quote: If you're practicing within the correct ritual structure
And how can you be sure it’s correct?
Quote: [..]then yes, you should be experiencing the Mysteries; practicing in the correct ritual structure for the Mysteries has a greater success rate than free-balling a ritual. How would ENPs even know what Mysteries they needed to learn if they're not initiated? They would be taking huge stabs in the dark. If people were 100% sure about the Mysteries and had facts to prove that one could indeed experience them, then it would cease to be faith and a religion.
Even in the dark you may find a way, but in the light it’s the easiest to lost it. You have no guarantee your coven haven’t changed something, add something, flowing away from the “great” beginning without your knowledge. And I know you will be opposing, but isn’t it like each high priest/ess got their own book? (how much own is thing you will never know).
Quote: From what you had typed, I thought you were saying that to the Wiccans in question, that the spreading of knowledge is more important than keeping their oaths. A Wiccan is bound by oath to protect their faith and keep the Mysteries; how can there be different interpretations of that?
Wrong impression- try to look few post ago, it would be unmannerly if I would write this same thing several time.
Quote: It's not like the term "Trad Wiccan" was created for shits and giggles; it was, as I said earlier, to differentiate between actual Wiccans and pretending Wiccans. Just because the term was refined to tell the difference does not mean that now it's okay for people to take a title they have no right to. Those who have no rights to the word have no right to it because they don't practice in the correct way that is Wicca.
Then what it doesn’t exists that way? Besides why it’s the title, is it connected with a social status, or esteem? Don’t you put to much weight on words rather than acts? Besides without those how did you call “pretending wiccans” for the mass opinion the “real wiccans” would be no more than suspicious devil-worshipers, so please hold at least a bit of respect for them, it’s not like they only take and give you nothing. Keep that in mind.
Mea |
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:15 am
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Verbeley It’s only through Jesus, one can enter the paradise. Please listen to yourself. You’re scaring.
Jesus has no place in Wicca, so I am not sure where you are coming from with this. Her statement was that since Wicca is orthopraxic - "how you practice" is one of the most important things in Wicca, and through that correct practice is how one properly experiences the Wiccan Mysteries. If you have not been taught the "correct practice", then you won't be able to experience the Mysteries as they were meant to be experienced. It is not something that can be taught from a book - it is an experience - simply describing the ritual won't work, since there is more than words that go into creating the proper "setting" for the Mysteries to be revealed.
Quote: And I know you will be opposing, but isn’t it like each high priest/ess got their own book? (how much own is thing you will never know).
Actually what determines if a coven can consider themselves true to the lineage is that they have to hold to the core practices. They can add certain things to the core, but they can't take away from it. Traditionally when a person was newly initiated into the coven they were required to hand write a copy of the coven's BOS, so that they would have "their own book". I don't know if they still have to hand copy it, but each person in a coven does have a copy of the coven's BOS. Each coven's will be a bit different, but the core material will be the same - or they can no longer claim to be Wiccan.
Quote: Besides without those how did you call “pretending wiccans” for the mass opinion the “real wiccans” would be no more than suspicious devil-worshipers.
There are still people out there that think this. Also, it's usually the "pretenders" who are misrepresenting the religion, that make it worse. Wiccans do not talk about their religion and their practices with non-Wiccans, and don't care what others think about it. The average person would have no way of knowing that someone was Wicca, because it's not something that would be talked about openly. |
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 3:48 am
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Sanguina Cruenta Vice Captain
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Violet Song jat Shariff Crew
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 4:07 am
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Verbeley So you’re saying neuro-surgeons are orthopraxic religion. I had some suspicions about that, but now you made me sure. twisted
It's called an analogy rolleyes
And I guess you could look at it that way, considering that there's a "right" and a "wrong" way to be a neuro-surgeon.
Quote: Shortcuts- it meant- they were practicing wicca, but from you point it could not be called more that magic. And I know magic means no wicca and I was marking that several times already.
No, no they weren't practicing Wicca at all. Not just from my standpoint, but from the standpoint of a lot of others as well.
Quote: Wicca is a decelerated religion and in this declaration, they had to put the basics of their beliefs, so it’s not like you don’t know nothing, moreover there were at lest few black sheep in that happy family, and by comparing their works you are at least in 90% find some more about wicca. Seeking is one of virtue isn’t it?
I think you mean, "Wicca is a declared religion"?
No, one does not simply declare they are Wiccan and -poof- OMGTHERWIKKUN!!! To be Wiccan it requires study, dedication, and initiation.
You seem to keep missing my point and I doubt you'll understand it any time soon: ENPs do not know what is required to be known to be a Wiccan, so how can they rightly label their beliefs Wiccan? So yes, in the grand scheme of Wicca, they don't know anything. Having knowledge of outer-court materials at best does not make one a Wiccan by any stretch.
And I have no idea what you're trying to say in the last part of this chunk.
Quote: It’s only through Jesus, one can enter the paradise. Please listen to yourself. You’re scaring.
OH NOES! THE EBIL OV FAKS!!!! gonk
The difference between Christianity and Wicca is orthodoxy v. orthopraxy. In orthodoxy "correct belief" is the most important, but as in the case of X-tianity there are so many splintered groups that it's hard to dig out a "correct belief." In Wicca, which is orthopraxic ( "correct practice" ) as set down by Gerald Gardner, initiation is required; he made the religion and the rules of the religion. If you want to argue with those rules, then you can really go find yourself another religion. It's not going to warp itself to fit the desires of rebellious teens or middle-aged women who are completely hung up on good, white goddess worship.
Quote: Even in the dark you may find a way, but in the light it’s the easiest to lost it. You have no guarantee your coven haven’t changed something, add something, flowing away from the “great” beginning without your knowledge. And I know you will be opposing, but isn’t it like each high priest/ess got their own book? (how much own is thing you will never know).
If they can trace their lineage back to Gardner, then it's a pretty good bet that they haven't changed anything. What is it that you're not understanding about orthopraxy? To change something would make their practice cease to be Wicca. MOST know this and it would be stupid of them to want to change up the ritual structures or whatnot.
There are some variations among the different branches of lineaged Wiccan, but the core is still the same. None of them went "ohhai guyz wer not drawin down the godess nemoar" or anything.
Quote: Wrong impression- try to look few post ago, it would be unmannerly if I would write this same thing several time.
I won't lie, it's hard to decipher your meaning sometimes, but I'll go back and have another look at it.
Quote: Then what it doesn’t exists that way? Besides why it’s the title, is it connected with a social status, or esteem? Don’t you put to much weight on words rather than acts? Besides without those how did you call “pretending wiccans” for the mass opinion the “real wiccans” would be no more than suspicious devil-worshipers, so please hold at least a bit of respect for them, it’s not like they only take and give you nothing. Keep that in mind.
What doesn't exist that way? It really wouldn't surprise me if before the likes of Cunningham and Buckland came about that lineaged Wiccans had no need to call themselves "Trad Wiccans" and just called themselves Wiccan. Because there was none of this ENP parading around as Wicca.
In the Wiccan community, I would say yes, there is a certain weight carried to being an actual lineaged Wiccan and being able to name off your lineage and your title. Words can be weighty; when they mean something to a person they can take on that weight and importance. A lineaged Wiccan who endured initiation and worked her a** off to learn the Mysteries and her degrees sees some 17 year old calling themselves a Wiccan and you know what? She's pissed that this little kid is calling themselves by a title that the kid didn't have to work for; to the lineaged Wiccan it's an affront to the actual work she had to put forth to learn and move ahead. The same thing would happen if this lineaged Wiccan came upon a 46 year old who claimed to be Wiccan.
I guess I also ask in return, if it's just a word with no weight, then why is it so important that "Wiccans" use the word Wiccan? If it's just a word, why not find some other word to use for themselves?
And those who call themselves by a title they have no right to really don't give me anything; it's like racists who claim to be true blue Asatru; they steal a title when they have no real knowledge of what it entails and by doing so drags down a whole faith. I hold ENPs in good regard-when they're approaching their practice from an intellectually and theological honest standpoint. If they're an ENP and call themselves Wiccan after reading a Fiona Horne book, then I don't see where or why they're entitled to the same level of respect as an ENP who is honest and calls their practice what it is - ENP. |
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 7:19 am
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Three times gosh, I’m not that stupid as you think I am.
(should I feel insulted now?)
too2sweet- Of course he doesn’t! She simply sound like haunted Christian, who walks from doors to doors with a bible in a hand. This is to what I was referring to.
Two, I know how it looks, and actually that’s much a beauty of that, that the book evolutes and this way has little chances to become anachronic, but on the other had it’s moving from the source, and you have to be aware of that too.
Third- I know, but there are less of them smile
Sanguina-chan- back to the first part of what I wrote to too2sweet, it was not about wicca, but about Ultraviolett1127 tone.
Once again- all I wrote was to Ultraviolett1127 was referring strictly to her words, and you got it misunderstood, (maybe by taking it out of context). All that you wrote is naturally true, but it doesn’t refer to my words anyhow.
As for the third part, bit in what I wrote to Ultraviolett- it’s in this post under, plus it’s the only way I see some terms useful and they don’t and should never guarantee you any merits.
So to your question- no, you always have to use them, ( but without the weight) cause in other way how would your mom know what to give you, when you are asking her to pass the salt. (Don’t treat that to serious, I’m a bit kidding now.)
Ultraviolett1127
You killed me. smile I got your point (honestly very exaggerated), What I wrote is call a joke. (not even a sarcasm, but if I wish it could be also, but it wasn’t)
Declared - to the government to be list as a religion. Sorry for wrong word, if that mislead you. English is my second or even third language, so it can happen I’ll make a mistake in writing.
Ultraviolett1127 The difference between Christianity and Wicca is orthodoxy v. orthopraxy. In orthodoxy "correct belief" is the most important, but as in the case of X-tianity there are so many splintered groups that it's hard to dig out a "correct belief." In Wicca, which is orthopraxic ( "correct practice" ) as set down by Gerald Gardner, initiation is required; he made the religion and the rules of the religion. If you want to argue with those rules, then you can really go find yourself another religion. It's not going to warp itself to fit the desires of rebellious teens or middle-aged women who are completely hung up on good, white goddess worship.
That’s the only difference? (now this is sarcasm, but it’s your fault, I’m really trying not too be sarcastic, I’m really trying)
The problem is you are not talking about teenagers or middle-aged women. If you haven’t noticed that before, try to read it all from the beginning and consider your statement once again. That would be I think fair.
Ultraviolett1127 If they can trace their lineage back to Gardner, then it's a pretty good bet that they haven't changed anything. What is it that you're not understanding about orthopraxy? To change something would make their practice cease to be Wicca. MOST know this and it would be stupid of them to want to change up the ritual structures or whatnot.
Face it whit what too2sweet wrote, and then tell me who doesn’t understand something, ok?
Ultraviolett1127 I won't lie, it's hard to decipher your meaning sometimes, but I'll go back and have another look at it.
I know, I’m sorry and I’ll appreciate that.
Ultraviolett1127 What doesn't exist that way? It really wouldn't surprise me if before the likes of Cunningham and Buckland came about that lineaged Wiccans had no need to call themselves "Trad Wiccans" and just called themselves Wiccan. Because there was none of this ENP parading around as Wicca.
You forgot about Alexa Sandersa and Robert Cochrane. As you see almost from the beginning there were some who claimed also to be the continuators of this same as Gardner traditions,. The term of curse may appeared later, but it’s actually normal, that we first notice something, then call it.
Quote: In the Wiccan community, I would say yes, there is a certain weight carried to being an actual lineaged Wiccan and being able to name off your lineage and your title. Words can be weighty; when they mean something to a person they can take on that weight and importance. A lineaged Wiccan who endured initiation and worked her a** off to learn the Mysteries and her degrees sees some 17 year old calling themselves a Wiccan and you know what? She's pissed that this little kid is calling themselves by a title that the kid didn't have to work for; to the lineaged Wiccan it's an affront to the actual work she had to put forth to learn and move ahead. The same thing would happen if this lineaged Wiccan came upon a 46 year old who claimed to be Wiccan.
Don’t you think there’s actually something wrong in that community? I’m serious now. No word makes a human, but it works both way. (but besides the white goddess –book, had some influence on shape of trad wicca too, as the ’60 cultural revolution wink )
Quote: I guess I also ask in return, if it's just a word with no weight, then why is it so important that "Wiccans" use the word Wiccan? If it's just a word, why not find some other word to use for themselves?
Quote: And those who call themselves by a title they have no right to really don't give me anything; it's like racists who claim to be true blue Asatru; they steal a title when they have no real knowledge of what it entails and by doing so drags down a whole faith. I hold ENPs in good regard-when they're approaching their practice from an intellectually and theological honest standpoint. If they're an ENP and call themselves Wiccan after reading a Fiona Horne book, then I don't see where or why they're entitled to the same level of respect as an ENP who is honest and calls their practice what it is - ENP.
This is not only problem of pagans, it appears in every where, referring to your former post, even in medical environment. But the only way to deal with it is coming out to people, educating and explaining. Not yelling, offending and umbraging.
Now I hope you don’t mind so long post and that I made myself clearer than I was. If any others misunderstanding, I’ll try to explain once again. Unfortunately as I wrote to Ultraviolett, English is not my mother tongue and I’m using many shortcuts in thinking. Plus I’m trying not to take it all to serious( other way it leads to fight, from my experience at least).
Peace
Mea
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Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:15 pm
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I really sometimes wish Gaia had voice chat - it's so hard to tell people's tone when writing (without emoting every single senence) blaugh
Quote: sweet Actually what determines if a coven can consider themselves true to the lineage is that they have to hold to the core practices. They can add certain things to the core, but they can't take away from it. Traditionally when a person was newly initiated into the coven they were required to hand write a copy of the coven's BOS, so that they would have "their own book". I don't know if they still have to hand copy it, but each person in a coven does have a copy of the coven's BOS. Each coven's will be a bit different, but the core material will be the same - or they can no longer claim to be Wiccan. Vi If they can trace their lineage back to Gardner, then it's a pretty good bet that they haven't changed anything. What is it that you're not understanding about orthopraxy? To change something would make their practice cease to be Wicca. MOST know this and it would be stupid of them to want to change up the ritual structures or whatnot. Face it with what too2sweet wrote, and then tell me who doesn’t understand something, ok?
The ritual structures are part of the core material that I mentioned. Those will be the same with little or no variation no matter what. As I said, the covens can add to the "core", but they cannot take away from it. Even then, only certain things have been allowed to be added. There comes a point if too many changes are made that even if you were originally a Trad coven, you are no longer able to claim to be Wiccan, since what you are practicing no longer meets the required elements.
Quote: That’s the only difference?
She was specifically talking about the "belief" structure - Orthopraxic vs. Orthodoxy. Obviously there are many other differences between the two. blaugh
Quote: Alexa Sandersa and Robert Cochrane
I think you are talking about Alex Sanders. He has claim to the Wiccan title through initiation into proper lineaged Wiccan covens. He later formed his own Tradition, but because the Alexandrian covens still maintain the core Gardnerian practices (they have only added to the core), they can still legitimately claim to be Wiccan. There are several valid "approved" lineaged Wiccan traditions besides Gardnerian and Alexandrian, they all can trace their lines back to Gardner though.
Robert Cochrane was simply a witch, and had nothing to do with Wicca or Gardner that I know of. His practices were more along the lines of traditional witchcraft. The only connection I can see is that Doreen Valiente was a member of his coven for a while, but that doesn't mean that it was a Wiccan coven. Everything I've seen links him only to witchcraft.
Quote: Don’t you think there’s actually something wrong in that community? I’m serious now. No word makes a human, but it works both way. (but besides the white goddess –book, had some influence on shape of trad wicca too, as the ’60 cultural revolution wink )
No one is forcing anyone to join the community, it is up to individual choice if they want to seek proper training and in seeking proper training they are agreeing to the "rules" of the community. In the religion of Wicca, you cannot claim the "title" until you have been initiated - that is one of the requirements of the religion. If there are people who think that is a silly requirement, then maybe Wicca is not for them. Wicca is a religion of priests and priestesses. It takes time and dedication to be properly trained for this "position". Like any job that requires a high degree of skilled work, you can't just read about it - you have to experience certain things in order to understand completely what it is all about.
Quote: how about self-definition
People self-define themselves all the time... "Hi, I'm Brandi. I'm a Eclectic Witch with an interest in Wicca." ...see it's not so hard. blaugh I still got to use the word Wicca, but I also let everyone know that I'm not initiated yet. biggrin
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