Altars, shrines and the differences

[RedHairjoe]

I do have my own altar in my room I use for rituals and such but as I got into researching proper offering etiquette I stumbled upon shrines which is used slightly differently (or so I was told and from what I found).

What I'm now curious about is what is a clear definition of an altar and a shrine as well as their uses and proper etiquette for them.  

[Esiris]

From the Oxford English Dictionary-
A shrine is " a. A place where worship is offered or devotions are paid to a saint or deity; a temple, church."
An altar is "a. A block, pile, table, stand, or other raised structure, with a plane top, on which to place or sacrifice offerings to a deity."

Both of the words have other definitions in the dictionary- but they're not as relevant because we're talking about religions and not in the more general uses of the words.

When I read these, I think it means that an altar is part of a shrine, but a shrine could include the walls and other tables and stuff too. I think how to "properly" use them is really about what your religion requires more than anything that I can say about them in general.  

[RedHairjoe]

Esiris

From the Oxford English Dictionary-
A shrine is " a. A place where worship is offered or devotions are paid to a saint or deity; a temple, church."
An altar is "a. A block, pile, table, stand, or other raised structure, with a plane top, on which to place or sacrifice offerings to a deity."

Both of the words have other definitions in the dictionary- but they're not as relevant because we're talking about religions and not in the more general uses of the words.

When I read these, I think it means that an altar is part of a shrine, but a shrine could include the walls and other tables and stuff too. I think how to "properly" use them is really about what your religion requires more than anything that I can say about them in general.

ok thats good to know. I also think I've seen people with shrines or alters set for specific deities like a patron or some such but doesn't that sorta insult other deities in a pantheon?

I have been trying to discover a patron god/goddess and I have several different forms that I'm researching into but if I pick a particular form from a certain pantheon would a shrine to only one be wrong?  

[Esiris]

caesar821

ok thats good to know. I also think I've seen people with shrines or alters set for specific deities like a patron or some such but doesn't that sorta insult other deities in a pantheon?

I don't think so- like in Voodoo, people have a Loa on their head, but not every Loa is on a persons head so there's no reason to try and have a shrine to every Loa. That way people tend to have a shrine to Papa because he opens the door for the other Loa, and then the Loa on their head- but not all of them.

Quote:

I have been trying to discover a patron god/goddess

I was reading up about this- so maybe I can help with it a little.

I think it is fair to say that Wicca had a huge influence on modern paganism- except for religions that base themselves on the lore of older pagan religions. Because the names of the Lord and Lady of Wicca are oathbound- many people who were exposed to the idea of a God and Goddess didn't have the names to call them so they started borrowing from other religions. I think some of this also comes form how some Wiccans use other names in open circles.

So if I get the histroy right- people adopted the idea that a Patron Deity was a God and Goddess that they liked from older pagan religions- but in ancient pagan religions like the one(s) in Greece, there were Tetelary Deities.

Going back to the Oxford English Dictionary, tetelary means "Of supernatural powers: Having the position of protector, guardian, or patron; esp. protecting or watching over a particular person, place, or thing."

So the Greeks would have household deities (the home is a place) they would have shrines to them, if they were married they might have one to Hera. Their job might have a specific tetelary deity they would honor for success. Their city might have one. The hearth would have one- and people would sometimes become priests or priestesses of these gods and go to serve them in the temples or not depending on too many things I don't understand or can't name.

Quote:

I have several different forms that I'm researching into but if I pick a particular form from a certain pantheon would a shrine to only one be wrong?

What do you mean by "form"?  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

An altar tends to be more of a working space. It's a focus of ritual and so on. A shrine is sort of a space you maintain in honour of a god (or ancestor or concept or spirit or whatever), with offerings or tokens on it. So a person might have a shrine to a particular deity, or maybe two or three, and a shrine dedicated to.... I don't know, world peace or something, and one to their ancestors. Maybe they'd go and make small offerings at the ancestor shrine once a day, and then this god's shrine on Tuesdays and that god's shrine on Wednesdays. But when they hold ritual to all the gods, they do it at their altar.

Ymmv, of course. That's just how I see the distinction myself. My altar is a fairly clear working space with small things on it from time to time, at which I can hold ritual or pray to a variety of deities and use for a variety of spiritual purposes. It is a "clean" space in that sense. Whereas I see a shrine as more of an item of devotion, the upkeep of which is a form of service; it's dedicated to a particular purpose and doesn't deviate from that purpose.

Additionally, an altar tends to be a larger space with a flat surface. A shrine can be larger, but it can also fit in a small box quite happily. Personal shrines tend towards the smaller, I think, particularly if you might have quite a few in your home.  

[RedHairjoe]

Esiris

What do you mean by "form"?

when I meant form I really meant along the lines of different versions of the same thing. i guess how different gods in pantheons represent similar things  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

caesar821

Esiris

What do you mean by "form"?

when I meant form I really meant along the lines of different versions of the same thing. i guess how different gods in pantheons represent similar things

I'm not really understanding sweatdrop  

[RedHairjoe]

Sanguina Cruenta

caesar821

Esiris

What do you mean by "form"?

when I meant form I really meant along the lines of different versions of the same thing. i guess how different gods in pantheons represent similar things

I'm not really understanding sweatdrop

like how the greeks and romans had gods that were pretty much the same things just different names  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

caesar821

Sanguina Cruenta

caesar821

Esiris

What do you mean by "form"?

when I meant form I really meant along the lines of different versions of the same thing. i guess how different gods in pantheons represent similar things

I'm not really understanding sweatdrop

like how the greeks and romans had gods that were pretty much the same things just different names

You're asking if you had an altar to..... um, Hera and Juno, or Diana and Artemis, would you have to have one to Diana AND Artemis?

I think that would be sort of odd, actually. I'd recommend viewing them within the context of their culture and religion just to simplify matters, at least at first.  

[RedHairjoe]

Sanguina Cruenta

caesar821

Sanguina Cruenta

caesar821

Esiris

What do you mean by "form"?

when I meant form I really meant along the lines of different versions of the same thing. i guess how different gods in pantheons represent similar things

I'm not really understanding sweatdrop

like how the greeks and romans had gods that were pretty much the same things just different names

You're asking if you had an altar to..... um, Hera and Juno, or Diana and Artemis, would you have to have one to Diana AND Artemis?

I think that would be sort of odd, actually. I'd recommend viewing them within the context of their culture and religion just to simplify matters, at least at first.

ok that makes sense. I have a list of deities that I've been looking into because of the things they represent so now im just seeing which speaks to me...but does that mean I have to pick the WHOLE pantheon?  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

caesar821

ok that makes sense. I have a list of deities that I've been looking into because of the things they represent so now im just seeing which speaks to me...but does that mean I have to pick the WHOLE pantheon?

You don't pick your deities, they pick you. Gods don't really "represent" things, it's more like they have areas of interest and areas of duty. Lists of the type you mention are OK for seeing the deities who are out there, but they're incredibly limited and often misleading. For example, such a list in "The Witch's Goddess" by the Farrars lists Freyja as a moon goddess, which is.... wrong.

It means you have to at least research the pantheon at large. Different gods will have different requirements when it comes to getting to know those with whom they interact.  

[RedHairjoe]

i see...well i seem to have a homework assignment to follow lol.

I was looking for a deity that works with history. I'm a history fanatic and plan on being a teacher (history is the ultimate teacher) and i was refereed to athena, minerva, bridget odin and saga. Although they did not represent history directly they did have an element involving poetry, which was the tool to teach history.  

[Esiris]

caesar821

i see...well i seem to have a homework assignment to follow lol.

I was looking for a deity that works with history. I'm a history fanatic and plan on being a teacher (history is the ultimate teacher) and i was refereed to athena, minerva, bridget odin and saga. Although they did not represent history directly they did have an element involving poetry, which was the tool to teach history.

I think that kind of loose association is good for some things and not others- like, poetry was a way to record history, but I bet more people were like "Hey son, that hill over there was where your great grandfather died protecting the village"- and at the same time, poetry was used to talk about lots of stuff and not just history- so if you're looking at a Venn Diagram of "History" and "Poetry", trying to shove a god or goddess into the overlap doesn't seem like ti would be respectful.  

[RedHairjoe]

Esiris

caesar821

i see...well i seem to have a homework assignment to follow lol.

I was looking for a deity that works with history. I'm a history fanatic and plan on being a teacher (history is the ultimate teacher) and i was refereed to athena, minerva, bridget odin and saga. Although they did not represent history directly they did have an element involving poetry, which was the tool to teach history.

I think that kind of loose association is good for some things and not others- like, poetry was a way to record history, but I bet more people were like "Hey son, that hill over there was where your great grandfather died protecting the village"- and at the same time, poetry was used to talk about lots of stuff and not just history- so if you're looking at a Venn Diagram of "History" and "Poetry", trying to shove a god or goddess into the overlap doesn't seem like ti would be respectful.

good point, ive picked those deities because of a lack of clear answer to "which gods represents history" lol There was no direct answer so that's what caused the loosed connection between history-> poetry

i still would like to continue searching for a patron god around my love of history but I just cant seem to find one other then Clio (who is a muse in greek mythology) but theres not much information on her  

[Morgandria]

http://morgandria.tumblr.com/post/16026556369/altars-and-shrines-are-different-from-one-another

That's my take on the subject. It doesn't really say anything that the others haven't.

You might want to approach deities who have influence over time, rather than looking at it purely as 'history'. Past, present, and future may not appear to the Gods in the same way they do to our current society. I personally don't believe in linear time, myself, but rather that things move in a spiral.

You can 'seek' a Patron all you like - it doesn't mean you have one, or ever will. We don't get to choose our patron deities, and not everyone will have one, or even need one. Not everyone is meant to be a priest or priestess. It's a vocation, and one that's about service. You shouldn't rush into it, and you can't push such a relationship onto a deity that you think is perfect, but wants nothing to do with you. You can't force it to be.

It's a very serious, life-changing relationship to have. It's not like having a super-powered divine buddy who fixes your life and then pisses off without wanting anything in return. You're there to provide for their needs, and if you give them what they need, they might reciprocate for you: a gift for a gift. Deities don't care if it's inconvenient, difficult, expensive, or embarrassing - they want what they want, when they want it.

The best you can do? Introduce yourself to the deities that interest you, politely. Create a working relationship. And don't expect or agitate towards a deeper or more intimate relationship than that - if a deity wishes that, they will initiate it. If not, at least you still have a polite, functioning working relationship!