"Universal Laws"

[ncsweet]

Lately I have been coming across quite a few people who think for whatever reason that certain principles (in this case the Three-fold Law, and Karma), that are more or less associated with specific practices/religions are "universal laws", and that for some reason they should apply to everyone (even if one is not a member of that particular path).

Examples...

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I've always known the TFL to apply to everyone

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I personally believe the TFL applies to everyone, no exceptions.

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Why would she need to make sure karma works? It is a law of the universe?

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Every religion believes in the three fold law. It is basically known as Karma

My question is how did we get to this point? Where has it ever been stated that these apply to everyone, and more to the point why would someone think that they would apply to everyone? I realize that different religions have similar concepts/principles, but I don't see the need to lump it all together.

Also if anyone has any good links/resources on what Karma actually is, and on the TFL, I would greatly appreciate it.  

[rmcdra]

Mama Silver, popular media, and ill trained/learned authors misusing Hindu/Buddhist concepts and TFL coupled together with soft polytheism theories. But that's just a guess.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Karma in Buddhism is considered to be a universal law by Buddhists since Buddhism is a religion that is intended to apply to everyone.  

[Sanguina Cruenta]

You'll have to ask Lokigoma about Karma. As far as I understand it - and I may be wrong - it has to do with living your dharma properly. The more your actions are in line with your dharma, the better off you are and the more likely you are to be reincarnated higher in your next life. When your actions are out of line with your dharma, you accrue karma, which acts as a sort of weight when it comes to your next incarnation, pulling you down the rungs if you've gained too much of it. You can reduce it by living well.

That's all I know, and that might be wrong, and I don't actually understand it properly because I haven't looked into dharma enough.

I was always under the impression from Gardner's wording of the Threefold Law that it was relevant only to Wiccans, or at least only to magical workings. That's one reason why I find it quite bizarre when people say "don't kick that puppy because of the threefold law". (Although I should point out that I certainly don't condone the kicking of puppies.)

The only part that's really the vexing element of this whole kerfuffle is that these individuals don't just believe that their law applies to everyone, they seem to think that other Pagans believe in it also and that they should be reminded of it every time an ethical subject is mentioned. And they get quite surprised and upset if you remind them that the ancient Pagans they are attempting to emulate were actually rather fond of headhunting/raping and pillaging/forcing people to fight bears for their amusement/cutting out hearts at the top of temples.

I don't think there's anything like a mystical spiritual wotsit that means doing bad means bad things come to you. There are too many rich douchebags for that to be true. No, if you act like a d**k to people, they will treat you like a d**k. That's not a universal law. That's standard social common sense. Happens in every social species. You live according to social norms or you end up out on your arse.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Sanguina Cruenta

You'll have to ask Lokigoma about Karma. As far as I understand it - and I may be wrong - it has to do with living your dharma properly. The more your actions are in line with your dharma, the better off you are and the more likely you are to be reincarnated higher in your next life. When your actions are out of line with your dharma, you accrue karma, which acts as a sort of weight when it comes to your next incarnation, pulling you down the rungs if you've gained too much of it. You can reduce it by living well.

That's all I know, and that might be wrong, and I don't actually understand it properly because I haven't looked into dharma enough.

I feel this is a fair general assessment of Karma within Hinduism, but it wouldn't be accurate for most forms of Buddhism.

It might be worth noting that within Hinduism, it's possible to have parts of your dharma conflict with one another, in which case you can't avoid karma, and instead are called to pick the action that will accrue the least karma.

Sanguina Cruenta

I don't think there's anything like a mystical spiritual wotsit that means doing bad means bad things come to you. There are too many rich douchebags for that to be true.

If it is of any interest, some Dharmic religions would say that such a life would mean that the choices they are making are going to cause those people to relive experiences they had previously overcome in their next life in order to relearn certain lessons. Other Dharmic religions would say that they were entranced by certain parts of their soul's journey to this incarnation and that the idea of greater or lesser incarnations isn't as accurate as appropriate and inappropriate incarnations, and that such an existence is an attempt to expose the current soul to situations they can learn from, and the soul is merely doing a poor job of learning.

Sanguina Cruenta

No, if you act like a d**k to people, they will treat you like a d**k. That's not a universal law. That's standard social common sense. Happens in every social species. You live according to social norms or you end up out on your arse.

It's also possible to be treated like you're a d**k when you do not act as one.  

[mechanical kitsy]

I'll ask my aunt when she's in town. She's a practicing Buddhist. She'll probably know more than me.  

[Wrath of Ezekiel]

Sanguina Cruenta

You'll have to ask Lokigoma about Karma. As far as I understand it - and I may be wrong - it has to do with living your dharma properly. The more your actions are in line with your dharma, the better off you are and the more likely you are to be reincarnated higher in your next life. When your actions are out of line with your dharma, you accrue karma, which acts as a sort of weight when it comes to your next incarnation, pulling you down the rungs if you've gained too much of it. You can reduce it by living well.

That's karma in Hinduism in a nutshell. That's actually how I know it as well. Karma, as a Hindu concept, deals with the cosmic ladder of reincarnation and moving through different forms, so it can't be universal if the faith of another doesn't believe in reincarnation.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

True Colours of Destiny

That's karma in Hinduism in a nutshell. That's actually how I know it as well. Karma, as a Hindu concept, deals with the cosmic ladder of reincarnation and moving through different forms, so it can't be universal if the faith of another doesn't believe in reincarnation.

I feel it can be applied as a universal law if the concept isn't limited to Hinduism itself, but is simply a Truth.

If it is a universal truth, other faiths would simply be misunderstanding this Truth. In this way, it would be the same as Buddhism.  

[Wrath of Ezekiel]

Brass Bell Doll

True Colours of Destiny

That's karma in Hinduism in a nutshell. That's actually how I know it as well. Karma, as a Hindu concept, deals with the cosmic ladder of reincarnation and moving through different forms, so it can't be universal if the faith of another doesn't believe in reincarnation.

I feel it can be applied as a universal law if the concept isn't limited to Hinduism itself, but is simply a Truth.

If it is a universal truth, other faiths would simply be misunderstanding this Truth. In this way, it would be the same as Buddhism.

I can't see it as a universal truth at all. You have faiths that believe in a set afterlife and ones that believe in reincarnation. Since karma is ultimately linked with reincarnation, since karma is meant to be a learning experience (you make a mistake you try again). Set afterlifes are one chance and one chance only.  

[Woa-Namzi]

Though there are some "universal laws" that I think are good for some people to hold in the backs of their skulls, I certainly wouldn't expect everyone to follow them and obey them. My view on such things tends to make them something akin to guidelines rather than laws.

For instance, it's common decency to be commonly decent to your fellow man. The repercussions of not being so? You're liable to get a boot jammed a good distance into your derriere. I wouldn't call this karma or "TFL" at all, rather, it's what happens when one person of free thinking is an a*****e to another person of free thinking. But this is neither here nor there.

Back to guidelines versus law.

The problem I have with people who walk around and preach such things, is that they're normally the number one culprit when it comes to breaking the laws they preach. The way they go about it with such intensity and vigor, it leads me to believe that even just arguing their point is enough to TFL their rears. Especially since many of these people tend to get a bit graphic with their pet-names for the person they're arguing with ninja

At any rate, I shall sum up my post: Guidelines, not universal law.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

True Colours of Destiny

I can't see it as a universal truth at all. You have faiths that believe in a set afterlife and ones that believe in reincarnation. Since karma is ultimately linked with reincarnation, since karma is meant to be a learning experience (you make a mistake you try again). Set afterlifes are one chance and one chance only.

I feel that this isn't an actual dichotomy, and instead when we study reincarnation in Dharmic faiths, we notice that incarnation into these after life manifestations can be described by some of the Dharmic traditions.

I feel that there is also a misunderstanding in that from the perspective of some of the Dharmic sects, those who deny reincarnation are merely mistaken. This is particularly the case for a number of Buddhist traditions.

In that sense, it is a Universal Law according to those sects.  

[warhead1029]

religion aside i think that no matter who you are you should believe that if you do a bad thing it will eventually come back at you and usually it comes back stronger than when you did it  

[Woa-Namzi]

joseph m 102

religion aside i think that no matter who you are you should believe that if you do a bad thing it will eventually come back at you and usually it comes back stronger than when you did it

This is not reality. There are many people who do bad things all the time, and they appear to be doing quite well for themselves.

Universal laws, such as these, are religious by nature, or at least deal with moral aspects of life. Not everyone follows the same religious doctrines and not everyone holds true to the same morals. Therefore it is impossible to insist that everyone should believe in such a thing.  

[Koigokoro Konjou]

"Everything one is bound by the Sacred Laws. No one is a exception to it."

That's what the Shamanism practice believes as do I.  

[Brass Bell Doll]

Nekico

"Everyone is bound by the Sacred Laws. No one is a exception to it."

That's what the Shamanism practice believes as do I.

I'm not familiar with the source of your quotation, could you tell me where you came across that and perhaps explain the sacred laws it mentions?