My rings make no sense...

[Nict]

Red Kutai

Drake LeFroy

Red Kutai

Drake LeFroy

Red Kutai

Drake LeFroy

Hornet's Nests is the mandatory useless skill that some people use because they don't know it's useless. All MMOs have them. You can't integrate everything!

And not accepting that daunting "fact" is the first rule of game design. Perhaps you can't integrate everything, but if you're not trying, you're doing it wrong... 3nodding

Thing is it makes sense though; you've got all of your bases covered, Hornet's Nest does 3 things, the rings you spoke of do all of those functions 1 at a time, so of course they are going to be stronger. There's no way you could integrate a multi-faceted ring into a game and make it stronger than the others of a very specific purposes.

If you make Hornet's nest just one or the other sure it will get very powerful, but other than that unless you came up with a new ability ( "Allergen" for example ) there's nowhere uncovered for it to cover.

I fear you've uncovered the very premise of my thread! gonk

But, realistically, yes; that's why I said that Hornet's Nest has no "job". It doesn't have its own niche, its own identity. The reason I'm here asking for suggestions is to determine what kind of role would feel most organic; that is, what single use for Hornet's Nest would feel most natural...

To be honest it should just be a highly extended DoT spell where RR4 gives a greater range of effect.

Well, I've stated my concern with extended DoT; Animated are not designed to live long. An extended DoT, even with a very high total damage, would likely wind up being inefficient as enemies die before its duration is up. Perhaps, though, that's more an issue with the enemies that exist in the game currently, and less with the concept of the effect...

It gives it value against bosses though. It would be the only "boss run" type ring there is.

[Red Kutai]

Drake LeFroy

Red Kutai

Drake LeFroy

Red Kutai

Drake LeFroy

Thing is it makes sense though; you've got all of your bases covered, Hornet's Nest does 3 things, the rings you spoke of do all of those functions 1 at a time, so of course they are going to be stronger. There's no way you could integrate a multi-faceted ring into a game and make it stronger than the others of a very specific purposes.

If you make Hornet's nest just one or the other sure it will get very powerful, but other than that unless you came up with a new ability ( "Allergen" for example ) there's nowhere uncovered for it to cover.

I fear you've uncovered the very premise of my thread! gonk

But, realistically, yes; that's why I said that Hornet's Nest has no "job". It doesn't have its own niche, its own identity. The reason I'm here asking for suggestions is to determine what kind of role would feel most organic; that is, what single use for Hornet's Nest would feel most natural...

To be honest it should just be a highly extended DoT spell where RR4 gives a greater range of effect.

Well, I've stated my concern with extended DoT; Animated are not designed to live long. An extended DoT, even with a very high total damage, would likely wind up being inefficient as enemies die before its duration is up. Perhaps, though, that's more an issue with the enemies that exist in the game currently, and less with the concept of the effect...

It gives it value against bosses though. It would be the only "boss run" type ring there is.

Like I said, it may just be a matter of having few applicable enemies in-game right now. Even bosses don't live very long, as it stands. sweatdrop

I could see it getting some use, though; for later bosses, and possibly Masks of Death and Rebirth. Perhaps that is just the niche it was looking for... 3nodding

[Miko Tadita]

Red Kutai

Miko Tadita

Red Kutai

Miko Tadita

kay tried the waterballoon and i still like hornet better it throws the enemies back so if they're getting you bad you at least have a change to regain stamina, and the water balloon only hits one enemy not multiplier neutral

No, Heavy Water Balloon does hit multiple enemies; I haven't used Hornet's Nest recently, so I don't know the comparative size of the AoE, but I can attest for its existence.

And if you're looking for something that causes enemies to run away, Scaredy Cat is designed for that. Unless what you're really looking for is dealing mediocre damage to a number of enemies, and making them run away, Hornet's Nest generally isn't your ideal ring.

If that is what you're looking for, though, I'm sure glad you found it... whee

well scaredy cat doesn't do damage which is why i use the nest, and the nest does more damage then the balloon.

Unless your Hornet's Nest higher CL than your Heavy Water Balloon, it shouldn't.

Heavy Water Balloon

You create a giant water ballon and hurl it at your foes, causing a colossal splash in a large area, damaging those affected. Higher Rage Ranks make bigger splashes and Taunt the enemies in the area to attack you instead of your friends.


Range: Medium
Stamina Cost: 6-7 Stamina
Cooldown: 6 seconds

RR1 -> 60-100 Damage (80 Damage) + ??? Hate + AoE
RR2 -> 80-120 Damage (100 Damage) + ??? Hate + AoE
RR3 -> 100-160 Damage (120 Damage) + ??? Hate + AoE
RR4 -> 140-190 Damage (180 Damage) + 4 Hate + AoE

Hornet's Nest

Hurl a nest of hornets at the ground, creating a swarm that attacks nearby foes. Higher Rage Ranks increase the area affected, as well as making the target sometimes panic and run away. (Fear)


Range: Long
Stamina Cost: 6-7 Stamina
Cooldown: 6 seconds

RR1 -> 60 (20*3) Damage + AoE
RR2 -> 90 (30*3) Damage + AoE
RR3 -> 120 (40*3) Damage + Fear (5s) + AoE
RR4 -> 120 (40*3) Damage + Fear (7s) + AoE

There are the stats on each, so you can compare them for yourself; but if Hornet's Nest is working for you, by all means, keep using it... 3nodding

interesting, i don't know maybe it's the fear that i like that works for me but ya stats don't lie but when you're underwater in ss the nest seems to be working better than the balloon i mean im trying it out now but I like the nest =)

[Red Kutai]

Miko Tadita

Red Kutai

Miko Tadita

Red Kutai

Miko Tadita

kay tried the waterballoon and i still like hornet better it throws the enemies back so if they're getting you bad you at least have a change to regain stamina, and the water balloon only hits one enemy not multiplier neutral

No, Heavy Water Balloon does hit multiple enemies; I haven't used Hornet's Nest recently, so I don't know the comparative size of the AoE, but I can attest for its existence.

And if you're looking for something that causes enemies to run away, Scaredy Cat is designed for that. Unless what you're really looking for is dealing mediocre damage to a number of enemies, and making them run away, Hornet's Nest generally isn't your ideal ring.

If that is what you're looking for, though, I'm sure glad you found it... whee

well scaredy cat doesn't do damage which is why i use the nest, and the nest does more damage then the balloon.

Unless your Hornet's Nest is higher CL than your Heavy Water Balloon, it shouldn't.

Heavy Water Balloon

You create a giant water ballon and hurl it at your foes, causing a colossal splash in a large area, damaging those affected. Higher Rage Ranks make bigger splashes and Taunt the enemies in the area to attack you instead of your friends.


Range: Medium
Stamina Cost: 6-7 Stamina
Cooldown: 6 seconds

RR1 -> 60-100 Damage (80 Damage) + ??? Hate + AoE
RR2 -> 80-120 Damage (100 Damage) + ??? Hate + AoE
RR3 -> 100-160 Damage (120 Damage) + ??? Hate + AoE
RR4 -> 140-190 Damage (180 Damage) + 4 Hate + AoE

Hornet's Nest

Hurl a nest of hornets at the ground, creating a swarm that attacks nearby foes. Higher Rage Ranks increase the area affected, as well as making the target sometimes panic and run away. (Fear)


Range: Long
Stamina Cost: 6-7 Stamina
Cooldown: 6 seconds

RR1 -> 60 (20*3) Damage + AoE
RR2 -> 90 (30*3) Damage + AoE
RR3 -> 120 (40*3) Damage + Fear (5s) + AoE
RR4 -> 120 (40*3) Damage + Fear (7s) + AoE

There are the stats on each, so you can compare them for yourself; but if Hornet's Nest is working for you, by all means, keep using it... 3nodding

interesting, i don't know maybe it's the fear that i like that works for me but ya stats don't lie but when you're underwater in ss the nest seems to be working better than the balloon i mean im trying it out now but I like the nest =)

Well, as general rule, if it works for you, use it. Trying to fit a playstyle that doesn't suit you is more likely cause problems than using a less-than-ideal piece of equipment; and who knows, maybe you'll find the situation Hornet's Nest was built for... whee

[Nict]

Red Kutai

Drake LeFroy

Red Kutai

Drake LeFroy

Red Kutai

Drake LeFroy

Thing is it makes sense though; you've got all of your bases covered, Hornet's Nest does 3 things, the rings you spoke of do all of those functions 1 at a time, so of course they are going to be stronger. There's no way you could integrate a multi-faceted ring into a game and make it stronger than the others of a very specific purposes.

If you make Hornet's nest just one or the other sure it will get very powerful, but other than that unless you came up with a new ability ( "Allergen" for example ) there's nowhere uncovered for it to cover.

I fear you've uncovered the very premise of my thread! gonk

But, realistically, yes; that's why I said that Hornet's Nest has no "job". It doesn't have its own niche, its own identity. The reason I'm here asking for suggestions is to determine what kind of role would feel most organic; that is, what single use for Hornet's Nest would feel most natural...

To be honest it should just be a highly extended DoT spell where RR4 gives a greater range of effect.

Well, I've stated my concern with extended DoT; Animated are not designed to live long. An extended DoT, even with a very high total damage, would likely wind up being inefficient as enemies die before its duration is up. Perhaps, though, that's more an issue with the enemies that exist in the game currently, and less with the concept of the effect...

It gives it value against bosses though. It would be the only "boss run" type ring there is.

Like I said, it may just be a matter of having few applicable enemies in-game right now. Even bosses don't live very long, as it stands. sweatdrop

I could see it getting some use, though; for later bosses, and possibly Masks of Death and Rebirth. Perhaps that is just the niche it was looking for... 3nodding

But that would be the beauty of the ring; it would be the first in a series of rings that would have late game value and still be attainable early game. It would become sophisticated, if you will, because it wouldn't have utility during the first half and people would write it off until someone said "Ah! But here!", it would become a staple in an attempt to beat some seriously difficult enemies. It also allows for the Devs to create tougher enemies or enemies that are immune to certain types of attacks such as Hack and Slash.

[Red Kutai]

Drake LeFroy

Red Kutai

Drake LeFroy

Red Kutai

Drake LeFroy

To be honest it should just be a highly extended DoT spell where RR4 gives a greater range of effect.

Well, I've stated my concern with extended DoT; Animated are not designed to live long. An extended DoT, even with a very high total damage, would likely wind up being inefficient as enemies die before its duration is up. Perhaps, though, that's more an issue with the enemies that exist in the game currently, and less with the concept of the effect...

It gives it value against bosses though. It would be the only "boss run" type ring there is.

Like I said, it may just be a matter of having few applicable enemies in-game right now. Even bosses don't live very long, as it stands. sweatdrop

I could see it getting some use, though; for later bosses, and possibly Masks of Death and Rebirth. Perhaps that is just the niche it was looking for... 3nodding

But that would be the beauty of the ring; it would be the first in a series of rings that would have late game value and still be attainable early game. It would become sophisticated, if you will, because it wouldn't have utility during the first half and people would write it off until someone said "Ah! But here!", it would become a staple in an attempt to beat some seriously difficult enemies. It also allows for the Devs to create tougher enemies or enemies that are immune to certain types of attacks such as Hack and Slash.

Well, as much as I hate the idea of balancing it based on enemies that don't exist yet, that may be the only space left for it to fill.

Making enemies immune (or, highly resistant to) Hack and Slash is simply a matter of giving them Armor, which no enemies have yet, if I'm not mistaken. Anyhow, Damage-over-Time bypasses Armor completely (again, if I'm not mistaken), so some heavily Armored boss might be an excellent target for long-term DoT...

[Nict]

And there you have it! A home for the homeless.

[Red Kutai]

Drake LeFroy

And there you have it! A home for the homeless.

Yeah; now, time to figure out what Shark Attack should be doing... gonk

[Myrielle]

I like doing splash damage and Hornet's Nest is a filler ring while my Hot Foot and Heavy Water Balloon are still loading. It does have a longer range than Hot Foot, so I actually use it for sniping.

[Atrash the Squidmonger]

Red Kutai

Drake LeFroy

Red Kutai

Drake LeFroy

Red Kutai

Well, I've stated my concern with extended DoT; Animated are not designed to live long. An extended DoT, even with a very high total damage, would likely wind up being inefficient as enemies die before its duration is up. Perhaps, though, that's more an issue with the enemies that exist in the game currently, and less with the concept of the effect...

It gives it value against bosses though. It would be the only "boss run" type ring there is.

Like I said, it may just be a matter of having few applicable enemies in-game right now. Even bosses don't live very long, as it stands. sweatdrop

I could see it getting some use, though; for later bosses, and possibly Masks of Death and Rebirth. Perhaps that is just the niche it was looking for... 3nodding

But that would be the beauty of the ring; it would be the first in a series of rings that would have late game value and still be attainable early game. It would become sophisticated, if you will, because it wouldn't have utility during the first half and people would write it off until someone said "Ah! But here!", it would become a staple in an attempt to beat some seriously difficult enemies. It also allows for the Devs to create tougher enemies or enemies that are immune to certain types of attacks such as Hack and Slash.

Well, as much as I hate the idea of balancing it based on enemies that don't exist yet, that may be the only space left for it to fill.

Making enemies immune (or, highly resistant to) Hack and Slash is simply a matter of giving them Armor, which no enemies have yet, if I'm not mistaken. Anyhow, Damage-over-Time bypasses Armor completely (again, if I'm not mistaken), so some heavily Armored boss might be an excellent target for long-term DoT...

Hack has DoT, though, so armor wouldn't stop it any more than it would stop Hornet's Nest.

I'd be a little hesitant about balancing rings just by making animated that weakened certain rings to any extreme event, especially if it was less about tactics and more "these rings are just awesome". I like that some rings are more useful in some areas than others, but not to a drastic event - I like the general versatility of most rings.

Quote:

Yeah; now, time to figure out what Shark Attack should be doing..

Um... a lightly armored opponent (or a couple opponents - not a large mob, though - more focused ones, if not bosses) that uses melee attacks with root, then retreats, in a confined area (need to make use of the range, but not too much)?
Makes the DoT somewhat useful, adds a minor use to the Root effect, and utilizes a poor ranged ring over a melee one.

[Red Kutai]

Atrash the Squidmonger

Red Kutai

Drake LeFroy

Red Kutai

Drake LeFroy

It gives it value against bosses though. It would be the only "boss run" type ring there is.

Like I said, it may just be a matter of having few applicable enemies in-game right now. Even bosses don't live very long, as it stands. sweatdrop

I could see it getting some use, though; for later bosses, and possibly Masks of Death and Rebirth. Perhaps that is just the niche it was looking for... 3nodding

But that would be the beauty of the ring; it would be the first in a series of rings that would have late game value and still be attainable early game. It would become sophisticated, if you will, because it wouldn't have utility during the first half and people would write it off until someone said "Ah! But here!", it would become a staple in an attempt to beat some seriously difficult enemies. It also allows for the Devs to create tougher enemies or enemies that are immune to certain types of attacks such as Hack and Slash.

Well, as much as I hate the idea of balancing it based on enemies that don't exist yet, that may be the only space left for it to fill.

Making enemies immune (or, highly resistant to) Hack and Slash is simply a matter of giving them Armor, which no enemies have yet, if I'm not mistaken. Anyhow, Damage-over-Time bypasses Armor completely (again, if I'm not mistaken), so some heavily Armored boss might be an excellent target for long-term DoT...

Hack has DoT, though, so armor wouldn't stop it any more than it would stop Hornet's Nest.

I'd be a little hesitant about balancing rings just by making animated that weakened certain rings to any extreme event, especially if it was less about tactics and more "these rings are just awesome". I like that some rings are more useful in some areas than others, but not to a drastic event - I like the general versatility of most rings.

Quote:

Yeah; now, time to figure out what Shark Attack should be doing..

Um... a lightly armored opponent (or a couple opponents - not a large mob, though - more focused ones, if not bosses) that uses melee attacks with root, then retreats, in a confined area (need to make use of the range, but not too much)?
Makes the DoT somewhat useful, adds a minor use to the Root effect, and utilizes a poor ranged ring over a melee one.

Hack only does, at most, 30% of its damage as DoT, meaning it's still 70% affected by Armor. The DoT helps, but a heavily Armored opponent would still be cutting into Hack's damage considerably.

And, no, I'm not saying that having those types of animated should be a concern in balancing the rings (that is, they should be balanced numerically, regardless), but some types of ring (like the long-term DoT we talked about) simply can't stand up with the enemies that exist right now. Making specific enemies in order to make specific rings useful is bad design, you're right; but I do like the idea of enemies that negate or hinder common strategies, as they require players to change their tactics. That kind of rethinking is a useful way to keep the game feeling new.

Er... eek That seems more than a little situational, friend. I know Shark Attack is supposed to be the "Short Range" ring, I just don't know how it should fit in that niche. I'd almost like to see it's Cooldown (and possibly Stamina) increased, and to see it hit for more damage than Hack, but that pushes it into "Damage-per-Hit Ring" range; not that zOMG! is generally concerned much with Damage-per-Hit, but if it becomes important later, I'd rather Shark Attack not take up more space than necessary...

[Red Kutai]

Myrielle

I like doing splash damage and Hornet's Nest is a filler ring while my Hot Foot and Heavy Water Balloon are still loading. It does have a longer range than Hot Foot, so I actually use it for sniping.

The range is actually my favourite part of the ring, as-is; it's the only real advantage over each of its alternatives. The problem is exactly what you said, though; it's filler. Excluding the range, it's simply a worse version of a number of other rings, rather than allowing itself to do one thing well. Personally, I'd keep the range the same, drawing out the DoT, and perhaps let it AoE with Rage. I'd also expect it to be much faster, and take less Stamina...

[Atrash the Squidmonger]

Red Kutai

Er... eek That seems more than a little situational, friend. I know Shark Attack is supposed to be the "Short Range" ring, I just don't know how it should fit in that niche. I'd almost like to see it's Cooldown (and possibly Stamina) increased, and to see it hit for more damage than Hack, but that pushes it into "Damage-per-Hit Ring" range; not that zOMG! is generally concerned much with Damage-per-Hit, but if it becomes important later, I'd rather Shark Attack not take up more space than necessary...

Situational, but it would definitely work xp . Like the timed minigame that releases unbeatable amounts of damage every 15 minutes for about 15 seconds, making Turtle an awesome ring!

I'm not sure if higher damage-greater costs is the way to go with Shark. Precedent there, with Turtle, makes me a bit wary. Maybe just expand its range a little, make it still attack powerfully, and cut all extras (no root, no debuffs, no AoE or odd crowd controls with rage). With a bit longer of a cooldown, it would become the 1 target luring tool for the more damage heavy style. It would be the Hack of ranged attacks - no ability to hit multiple targets like Slash (or, in Shark's case, most of the ranged attack rings), and slower speed of damage and higher costs than Mantis (Solar Rays and Hunter's Bow for Shark).

[Red Kutai]

Atrash the Squidmonger

Red Kutai

Er... eek That seems more than a little situational, friend. I know Shark Attack is supposed to be the "Short Range" ring, I just don't know how it should fit in that niche. I'd almost like to see it's Cooldown (and possibly Stamina) increased, and to see it hit for more damage than Hack, but that pushes it into "Damage-per-Hit Ring" range; not that zOMG! is generally concerned much with Damage-per-Hit, but if it becomes important later, I'd rather Shark Attack not take up more space than necessary...

Situational, but it would definitely work xp . Like the timed minigame that releases unbeatable amounts of damage every 15 minutes for about 15 seconds, making Turtle an awesome ring!

I'm not sure if higher damage-greater costs is the way to go with Shark. Precedent there, with Turtle, makes me a bit wary. Maybe just expand its range a little, make it still attack powerfully, and cut all extras (no root, no debuffs, no AoE or odd crowd controls with rage). With a bit longer of a cooldown, it would become the 1 target luring tool for the more damage heavy style. It would be the Hack of ranged attacks - no ability to hit multiple targets like Slash (or, in Shark's case, most of the ranged attack rings), and slower speed of damage and higher costs than Mantis (Solar Rays and Hunter's Bow for Shark).

My only concern is how far they could extend the range in keeping it "The Short Range Ring". And, I certainly wasn't talking about Turtle-level effects/costs, though even then I think there's a point at which you could balance an extremely high-cost ring (I still wouldn't wish 15 minutes of Cooldown on any ring), but Turtle's 15 seconds of invulnerability just isn't it.

Having it simply be the Slightly-Ranged Hack would be acceptable to me; honestly, that's what you expect from a Shark Attack. Any extras they add would detract from the damage, which would only detract from the intuitiveness of the ring itself...

[Atrash the Squidmonger]

Red Kutai

My only concern is how far they could extend the range in keeping it "The Short Range Ring". And, I certainly wasn't talking about Turtle-level effects/costs, though even then I think there's a point at which you could balance an extremely high-cost ring (I still wouldn't wish 15 minutes of Cooldown on any ring), but Turtle's 15 seconds of invulnerability just isn't it.

Maybe Short range, rather than poor (so it's more handy as a mobility ring, but still nothing you can really snipe with)? And certainly it wouldn't get to Turtle effects/costs, but a ring could be somewhat hobbled before getting anywhere near Turtle's problems. razz

Quote:

Having it simply be the Slightly-Ranged Hack would be acceptable to me; honestly, that's what you expect from a Shark Attack. Any extras they add would detract from the damage, which would only detract from the intuitiveness of the ring itself...

So something like

Stamina Cost: 4-5 Stamina
Cooldown: 4 seconds

RR1 -> 90-130 Damage (110 Damage)
RR2 -> 130-190 Damage (160 Damage)
RR3 -> 140-200 Damage (170 Damage)
RR4 -> 160-240 Damage (200 Damage)

? (I just stitched that together using Bump's damage with Hack's costs - the slightly higher costs compared to Bump, and the lack of Knockback would be balanced against its flexibility of [short] range) It would be one of the more powerful instant attack rings, while not getting too long or costly to use (especially since it's a 1 opponent ring - AoE's with higher costs are easier to justify, for the most part, I think). Maybe add 10,20,30,40 DoT for the rage ranks, for a tiny bleed. It would be costly to just spam it or use it on foes which would just get wiped out anyway, but not so much that a person would always have to hold back on it.