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LoveLoud837
Hi.

While the bible does not explicitly give a date for the Earth, it is reasonable that the Earth is from a biblical perspective 6,000 years old, give or take.

A nice timeline is provided in Henry Morris' study bible, but of course I'm probably the only one that has a copy of it.

The Earth was biblically created in 6 days, and there are detailed chapters of geneology throughout scriptures that lead to an estimate of about 6,000 years.

There have been attempts to reconcile these theories together, but they are incompatible. The day-age theory, the gap theory, etc. The Earth is either very old or very young (relatively).

For instance, you have orders of events mixed up. Plants and light come before the sun in scripture is probably most notable. Most importantly, until Adam and Eve, you did not have sin, which meant there was no death. Evolution requires death as natural selection is one of its main drives. Also, God's book is inerrant, and if it were errant anywhere, its errant everywhere (at least in a salvation message, there may be general facts like Rome and Israel exist).

Creationism is something of a worldview, an interpretation of evidence. Scientists interpret the evidence in a scientific way, and usually state that by definition a God could not be the driving force, so they must resort to finding other ways it could have happened. When something is dated like the Earth as '4.6 billion years,' you then have to analyze that. If God made the Earth in 6 days, how old is the Earth when you date it? How old is the tree that has already produced fruit? Certainly a tree cannot grow in 6 days and have fruit on it. The Earth would be dated much older than it actually is. What effect would a flood of a global magnitude have that was on the Earth for about a year, and flood the Earth so high as to land the ark on a mountain 17,000 feet tall on the studied age of the Earth, and fossil placement, and the geographic outlook of a map.

It is a different viewpoint of evidence. However, science-minded people will say 'this earth is 4.6 billion years old because of this dating method, and that is more than 6,000, so the bible isn't true.'


The Biblical narrative is not an interpretation of any evidence before 4,000 years ago (when the Bible was invented). Furthermore, the creation myth implies that the earth was created at a later time than when certain provinces in Asia were already domesticating dogs.

It doesn't say much for the Biblical narrative when we can prove that some forests and trees are older than 6,000 years old.
Does the Biblical narrative or the creationist myth account for these 'interpretations' of the evidence as you put it? If not, then how do you account for this lack of evidence within the Biblical narrative, let alone the lack of interpretable data from that narrative?

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LoveLoud837
A nice timeline is provided in Henry Morris' study bible, but of course I'm probably the only one that has a copy of it.
What kind of silly assumption is that...? Do you seriously think you're the only person with a copy of this book?

EDIT: Amazon lists having 50 copies for $18.99 or less.
LoveLoud837
The Earth was biblically created in 6 days, and there are detailed chapters of geneology throughout scriptures that lead to an estimate of about 6,000 years.
...which has already been said several times on page 1, in greater detail.
LoveLoud837
There have been attempts to reconcile these theories together, but they are incompatible. The day-age theory, the gap theory, etc. The Earth is either very old or very young (relatively).
There is no "either"; The earth is 4.54 billion years old. Period.
LoveLoud837
... until Adam and Eve, you did not have sin, which meant there was no death.
Really? Wow... How big of an a*****e was your "omniscient" God, then, since he allowed it into the world by looking the other way as it was first introduced?
LoveLoud837
...For instance, you have orders of events mixed up. Plants and light come before the sun in scripture...

...God's book is inerrant, and if it were errant anywhere, its errant everywhere...
So... you're acknowledging that there's errors in there... then saying that there isn't any only three sentences later. You can't have your cake and eat it, too, so which is it?
LoveLoud837
Creationism is something of a worldview, an interpretation of evidence.
No; Creationism is religious dogma disguised as science.
LoveLoud837
Scientists interpret the evidence in a scientific way, and usually state that by definition a God could not be the driving force, so they must resort to finding other ways it could have happened.
It's not "by definition", idiot; There is no evidence for the existence of a supernatural being with the power to create matter at will. Such a thing defies numerous scientific laws and truths, such as physics, thermodynamics, and space-time. That's why science denounces "Goddit" as an explanation for things; definition has nothing to do with it.
LoveLoud837
When something is dated like the Earth as '4.6 billion years,' you then have to analyze that.
Right - that's the reason we know that the Earth is 4.54 billion years old.
LoveLoud837
If God made the Earth in 6 days, how old is the Earth when you date it?
That's irrelevant, since he didn't.
LoveLoud837
How old is the tree that has already produced fruit? Certainly a tree cannot grow in 6 days and have fruit on it.
Certainly, trees need sunlight for photosynthesis, so them being created before sunlight existed makes no sense at all.

Also, God and his kid have issues when it comes to fruit-bearing trees, so using them as an example might not... wait for it... bear fruit.
LoveLoud837
What effect would a flood of a global magnitude have that was on the Earth for about a year, and flood the Earth so high as to land the ark on a mountain 17,000 feet tall on the studied age of the Earth, and fossil placement, and the geographic outlook of a map.
A global flood of the magnitude you're suggesting would leave a little thing called "evidence" - and in spite of what your trumped-up pseudo-geologists claim, there isn't any. On the contrary, there is an overwhelming abundance of evidence against Noah's Flood - so much that even entertaining the idea that it is even a possibility is basically rendered moot without special pleading:
Physical Scale
Assuming that there was no magical transformation of the landscape between the time of the Flood and now (which is reasonable, considering the time frame they project), the floodwaters would have to raise the sea-level to height of Mount Everest to be in line with the Biblical description stating that the waters came up higher than the highest mountains. This is around 8.84 km above current sea level. Since the volume of land is small compared to the total volume of water that would be required for such a flood (oceans cover 71% of the Earth's surface and the average height of land is only about 800 meters), an easy calculation shows the amount of water needed to achieve this would be at least 4.5 billion km³. The current volume of the Earth's oceans combined is estimated at only 1.3 billion km³. This raises the question of where did that much water come from - and more importantly, where did it all go?

Precipitation
The Flood story states that the flood waters came from rain that lasted "40 days and 40 nights". Rain appears when the atmosphere can no longer support water in the vapor phase, and it becomes saturated. So... what about the amount of water vapor suspended in air needed for the 4.5 billion cubic kilometers of water needed for the flood? The water vapor currently in the air is only around 2-3% on average, with a maximum of 4% limited by temperature and pressure. The change in atmospheric conditions required to support enough vapor for 112 million cubic kilometers of rain per day - about 120,000 times more than the current daily rainfall worldwide - would have rendered the air unbreathable; If the conditions were right for that much water to be in the atmosphere, humans and virtually every other animal would have drowned through the simple act of breathing - as well as turning the Earth into a pressure cooker, with atmospheric pressure at nearly a thousand PSI, instead of the standard 14.7 or so that we have today.

The atmosphere simply couldn't sustain that much water even under the most extreme temperature and pressure conditions the planet can produce - period. Barring the "goddidit" escape hatch (a tried and tested fallback for creationists everywhere), this is impossible.

Hydroplate "theory", and other nonsense
More recent "theories" (note that I'm using the term as loosely as they do) have seen Creationists try to get around the above issues by either placing the water underground, positing an ice or vapor canopy above the atmosphere, having the water being contained in "sealed chambers", or by having comets bring it. This is despite the Bible not really describing the flood as such - in fact, they have to make a very loose interpretation of the "firmament" noted in Genesis for this to work. They still ignore several factors, however:

* When placing the water beneath the earth, the only viable method for releasing it is as steam (which proceeds to sterilize the planet regardless of whether or not one is in a giant wooden boat).

* Aside from having no physically possible method to exist in the first place, an ice or vapor canopy would convert all of its orbital energy into kinetic energy when it collapsed, thereby poaching Noah and all the critters like eggs.

* Cometary impacts on the order needed to provide the water would have been many times the energy of the Cretaceous-Tertiary Extinction Event, making the resultant flood unnecessary in wiping out life on the planet.

Then there's Hydroplate "theory", which is a Creationist hypothesis that Earth once had huge chambers of water sandwiched between the earth's crust and its mantle. It was ironically invented to provide a naturalistic reason to throw naturalism to the winds. (The obvious answer, that a God capable of creating the universe in a single week can conjure the requisite water out of thin air, was apparently not up for consideration.) The hypothesis claims that before the Flood, the Earth's crust floated on a thick layer of water, above the mantle. Walls and tendrils connected the mantle and crust, allowing the inner and outer reaches of the planet to rotate on its axis at the same speed.

According to the hypothesis, the pre-deluge Earth had one super-continent (but not that one) which covered about 75 percent of the surface. Oceans were really giant lakes (like the Sea of Galilee, the Red Sea, etc). To maintain consistency they are obliged to argue that Earth's mountains rarely reached more than 5000 feet (1524 meters) above what was then sea level and the highest mountain was probably much lower than 9000 feet (2743 meters). When it came time to flood the Earth, God cracked the crust (which allegedly formed underwater mountain ranges like the Mid-Atlantic Ridge), releasing the water like a soft-boiled egg. The subterranean water sprayed upward with such great force that it caused worldwide rainfall for 40 days and 40 nights (and also made comets, lunar craters, and anything else they don't understand).

It goes on to say that the water left its subterranean encasements so quickly that many land masses immediately began to sink, and that these rapidly sinking land masses uplifted other land masses, thus causing deep-sea fossils to appear at the tops of mountain peaks (which Creationists always point to as "proof" of the flood, naturally wanting to wish away the vast amount of evidence for slow-motion tectonic forces taking millions of years to raise mountains from the ocean floor).

In another display of obtuse ignorance, Creationists claim these sudden movements caused the super-continent to develop tectonic ridges and mountain ranges that run parallel to Earth's coastlines. (Naturally, these movements also created the illusion that led scientists to develop the theory of Pangaea.)

LoveLoud837
It is a different viewpoint of evidence.
For there to be a different viewpoint of evidence, you'd have to actually have some, first; shoehorning things to fit doesn't count.
LoveLoud837
However, science-minded people will say 'this earth is 4.6 billion years old because of this dating method, and that is more than 6,000, so the bible isn't true.'
If "science-minded people" say that because of scientific research and analysis, does that make you (as someone who opts to go with the word of a book written in the Bronze Age) a "primitive-minded person"...?

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That's why science denounces God;


No, not really. There is no evidence for or against God, it really has no say in God's existance, just his participation in reality. Though creationism, the great flood and some other Bible stories are proven false. Not claiming he does or does not exist, just saying science doesn't claim to know what we have yet to prove. Now there is a chance you simply meant science is secular, in which case apologies for the misunderstanding.

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That's why science denounces God...
No, not really. There is no evidence for or against God, it really has no say in God's existance, just his participation in reality. Though creationism, the great flood and some other Bible stories are proven false. Not claiming he does or does not exist, just saying science doesn't claim to know what we have yet to prove. Now there is a chance you simply meant science is secular, in which case apologies for the misunderstanding.
Looking at it, I can see how you'd read it that way, but it's not what I meant sweatdrop By "denounce", I was saying that science doesn't give the notion of "goddidit" any credence as an explanation for things.

Thanks for pointing that out. I edited the post to reflect what I was saying more clearly.

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That's why science denounces God...
No, not really. There is no evidence for or against God, it really has no say in God's existance, just his participation in reality. Though creationism, the great flood and some other Bible stories are proven false. Not claiming he does or does not exist, just saying science doesn't claim to know what we have yet to prove. Now there is a chance you simply meant science is secular, in which case apologies for the misunderstanding.
Reading it, I can see how you'd read it that way, but it's not what I meant sweatdrop By "denounce", I was saying that science doesn't give the notion of "goddidit" any credence as an explanation for things.

Does that make more sense?



Yeah that makes sense, I have a habit of misunderstanding text lol.

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That's why science denounces God...
No, not really. There is no evidence for or against God, it really has no say in God's existance, just his participation in reality. Though creationism, the great flood and some other Bible stories are proven false. Not claiming he does or does not exist, just saying science doesn't claim to know what we have yet to prove. Now there is a chance you simply meant science is secular, in which case apologies for the misunderstanding.
Reading it, I can see how you'd read it that way, but it's not what I meant sweatdrop By "denounce", I was saying that science doesn't give the notion of "goddidit" any credence as an explanation for things.

Does that make more sense?



Yeah that makes sense, I have a habit of misunderstanding text lol.
No, no; I misspoke. Don't worry about it.

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It doesn't; it's just an estimate by those who follow creationism

Timid Seeker

The bible doesn't claim this anywhere (nor does it ever imply it). The origin, as I've read years ago, was literally some random low ranking catholic priest sitting down and summing all the genealogies.

As a Christian, I think that taking the word of that priest is ridiculous. The better arguments exist in interpretation of Genesis and how it may or may not relate to evolution as a theory (the revised, not outdated Darwinian evolution and associated evidence). I am also excited for scientists (who are Christians and I personally know) in the fields of biology to continue in their research and to talk with them about what they think.

I don't think an atheist, especially uneducated in science, can provide a fair interpretation of Genesis in relation to evolution. This is because they also never understand Christianity, so they cannot easily run on intuition and have insights into the same things a scientist ( who is a Christian ) will have.

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I don't think an atheist, especially uneducated in science, can provide a fair interpretation of Genesis in relation to evolution. This is because they also never understand Christianity, so they cannot easily run on intuition and have insights into the same things a scientist ( who is a Christian ) will have.


Most atheists come from religion...and in America, that tends to be christianity. It is disingenuous of you to dismiss someone else because they don't believe the same thing you do, even if they have done more research into it than you have (which, I know of a lot of atheists who have done extensive research into the bible).

So the right time to not believe someone's claims is when they cannot validate their claims...not based on the source of the claim.

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