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Okay im sorry if this is a repeat topic but I havent seen a thread on it as long as ive been hunting threw ED so....

Okay people say that everything that happens good or bad is part of God's plan. Well I have a question. What is god's plan and if god does have a plan and if everything that happens is part of his plan then dosent that take away our free will because he has already planned out what we are going to do? So if we dont have free will then we cant possibly choose to sin which means that no one ever sins as they are just fufilling another part of god's plan. Also no one would go to hell as it is not a person's choice to accept jesus because god has already planned that they will or wont. So now im confused. If we cant choose to accept jesus then no one goes to hell and if we cant choose to sin then no one actually sins. Im so confused anyone want to clear things up for me?
Well, I don't know if this clears it up any for you, but William James, prominent psychologist and philosopher, weighed in on free will in a pragmatist perspective:

Quote:
Free-will prgamatically means novelties in the world, the right to expect that in its depeest elements as well as in its surface phenomena, the future may not identically repeat and imitate the past. ... It holds up improvement as at least possible; whereas determinism assures us that our whole notion of possibility is born of human ignorance, and that necessity and impossibility between them rule the destinies of the world.

Free-will is thus a general cosmological theory of promise, just like the Absolute, God, Spirit, or Design. ... Elation at mere existence, pure cosmic emotion and delight, would, it seems to me, quench all interest in those speculations, if the world were nothing but a lubberland of happiness already. Our interest in religious metaphysics arises in the fact that our empirical future feels to us unsafe, and needs some higher guarantee. If the past and present were purely good, who could wish that the future might possibly not resemble them? Who could desire free-will? ... "Freedom" in a world already perfect could only mean freedom to be worse, and who could be so insane as to wish that? (William James, Pragmatism)


Generally, we have free will so that we can improve ourselves. In such a perspective, God gives free will as well as an atonement so that mankind can do the heavy lifting themselves. Whether they actually do or not is entirely beside the point; the provisions for salvation has been made and mankind has only the choice whether to accept it or not.
Boxy
Well, I don't know if this clears it up any for you, but William James, prominent psychologist and philosopher, weighed in on free will in a pragmatist perspective:

Quote:
Free-will prgamatically means novelties in the world, the right to expect that in its depeest elements as well as in its surface phenomena, the future may not identically repeat and imitate the past. ... It holds up improvement as at least possible; whereas determinism assures us that our whole notion of possibility is born of human ignorance, and that necessity and impossibility between them rule the destinies of the world.

Free-will is thus a general cosmological theory of promise, just like the Absolute, God, Spirit, or Design. ... Elation at mere existence, pure cosmic emotion and delight, would, it seems to me, quench all interest in those speculations, if the world were nothing but a lubberland of happiness already. Our interest in religious metaphysics arises in the fact that our empirical future feels to us unsafe, and needs some higher guarantee. If the past and present were purely good, who could wish that the future might possibly not resemble them? Who could desire free-will? ... "Freedom" in a world already perfect could only mean freedom to be worse, and who could be so insane as to wish that? (William James, Pragmatism)


Generally, we have free will so that we can improve ourselves. In such a perspective, God gives free will as well as an atonement so that mankind can do the heavy lifting themselves. Whether they actually do or not is entirely beside the point; the provisions for salvation has been made and mankind has only the choice whether to accept it or not.
That still dosent adress the fact of that the idea of "gods plan" is in itself a self defying idea.
tallfraekonleash
That still dosent adress the fact of that the idea of "gods plan" is in itself a self defying idea.
I'm arguing that God's plan is free will - that the self needs to choose salvation, otherwise salvation is meaningless.

Can you have safety if there is no danger?
Boxy
tallfraekonleash
That still dosent adress the fact of that the idea of "gods plan" is in itself a self defying idea.
I'm arguing that God's plan is free will - that the self needs to choose salvation, otherwise salvation is meaningless.

Can you have safety if there is no danger?
No but the thing is that if that was in theory gods plan do you think people choose to die painful slow deaths? Do you think people choose to be killed in a crash? No they dont so when someone says its all part of gods plan it cant be true because we dont choose everything that happens to us.
tallfraekonleash
No but the thing is that if that was in theory gods plan do you think people choose to die painful slow deaths? Do you think people choose to be killed in a crash? No they dont so when someone says its all part of gods plan it cant be true because we dont choose everything that happens to us.
I wasn't aware that death wasn't a natural solution to life. Nor that "God's plan" did not eventually include some sort of "redistribution" and reward for those who were unjustly "punished" while in mortality.

All in all, death is about as essential to living as birth. The circumstances in which they occur and the pain exacted on the individual are unavoidable, although will theoretically be "justified" in the sense of being made right.

At least the theory of "God's plan" goes. You want to get started on how the Fall was part of "God's plan"?
tallfraekonleash
Okay people say that everything that happens good or bad is part of God's plan.


That's what people say. I wonder if this is Biblical.
When I asked one of my leaders here is what they said...sorry if it doesn't help much....


Part of God's plan is free agency. However he knows us so well that he knows how we would react in certain sittuations. So he knew how we would act and planned accordingly...

It kinda made sense to me, but even then, I am also kinda confused.
If there is a god he doesn't have on...he gave humans free will.
If God has a plan, it means we don't have free will. We're damned, or saved, because He deems it so. It's a very Calvinist approach you have there.
So all of our actions are determined by God, if he's got this plan. This means even the bad stuff. This means God can send you to hell of his own will because of His plan. This throws a wrench into the system of the benevolent, loving God because now he's sending his own people to hell (depending on your reading of God's people - is it all of us, or just Jewish people - his chosen people?)
You can not choose to sin and still sin - you'd be sinning as a part of God's will.


Or, we have free will to act within his eventual plan. Yet still, that leaves some 'pre-ordained' issues left about.
I never was one for the "God's Plan" idea, it gives the idea that god will do what he wants with our lives, it makes us pawns. I refuse to think that some higher power does that to me, and if such a thing is actually happening, I'm very sickened by the very notion of my existance then. "God's Plan" sounds like "Dictator" to me because then I'm just his pawn on a chessboard, and other people and beings are of course the other pieces, with him as the player, and the Devil as the other.
Leilee said: (sorry. i don't know how to quote.)
"I never was one for the "God's Plan" idea, it gives the idea that god will do what he wants with our lives, it makes us pawns. I refuse to think that some higher power does that to me, and if such a thing is actually happening, I'm very sickened by the very notion of my existance then. "God's Plan" sounds like "Dictator" to me because then I'm just his pawn on a chessboard, and other people and beings are of course the other pieces, with him as the player, and the Devil as the other."

for some reason that puts a really cool picture into my head. eek
I'm freaked out by the idea of someone controling me, knowing my thoughts and stuff. all of our actions create an effect, which influences others to do things. maybe thats god's plan.
This is the way I see it.

God is so infinitely powerful, He can work around whatever decisions people choose to make. His plan, to us, is very vague. It is simply this: Eventually, in the end, everything will be okay.

I believe that God inspires people to do things sometimes - He doesn't take away their free will to choose something.

For instance...there was a guy who was planning to shoot a bunch of people. A dog came up to him and started playing with him. The man was so touched by this dog's innocence that he turned himself in and never killed anyone.

God could very well have told the dog, "Why don't you go play with that man?" Not in words, but sort of...well, a feeling. Then he might have told the man, "Look at this adorable dog. Why don't you play with him instead of killing a bunch of innocent people."

Could the man still have chosen to shoot up the neighborhood? Yes. But he didn't, because he was inspired to play with the dog instead.

Sadly, history is full of examples where people decided to do the wrong thing. But I think God can still work with whatever humans decide to do. 3nodding
It sounds to me like this:

IF GOD EXISTS...

He knows how the movie will end, because the characters are so predictable for him, but yet, he enjoys the characters so much that he will see the movie till the end.
I assume you mean the Christian God.

You can essentaily blame God for everything if you believe in Him. God is supposed to be all knowing therefore He had to know that when He placed us in the Garden of Eden that we would eat the fruit, unless free will exsists. If free will exists then God would not know everything and as such could not have a plan that is guaranteed to work. However God could make a sort of general plan in which He predicts what will happen more or less.

If free will doesn't exist then there is nothing you can do about it so don't worry about it.

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