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Takai_desu_yo
irish_eyes
ugh, i hate utah (or more, the people of utah in general) every time i come here... im stuck in st. george for a couple of days sweatdrop

I'm stuck in St. George for a couple of years. I know how you feel. What are you doing here, anyway?


ehh, im already gone (phew sweatdrop ). i was just stopping on a road trip to visit some relatives.

very glad im back in california 3nodding
Woodlock
I have 2 questions:

1)
2 Cor. 11:12-15
12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


How does one KNOW that a vision is from God? Or an angel? Or a being claiming to be God Himself?

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Can't go on feelings.

2)
Can you reconcile this for me?

BoM - Jacob 1:15, 2:24, 3:5; Mosiah 11:2 God condemns the very act of polygamy
D&C Section 132:1, 37-39, 61 God states the polygamy is a reward to the faithful

I have never gotten a good answer to either one.


Of course you haven't and you wont. Those are good points, neither of which can be easily reconcilled. But remember, TBM's have a rationalization for nearly every discrepency, since the LDS has had so many years to deal with them as they've come up. Really, unless a Mormon discerns problems on their own, there's really not much you can expect to accomplish by lobbying these 'tests' over and over. Just give them a copy of "Mormonism: Shadow or Reality?", which goes into nearly every significant problem and discrepency in Mormon history and theology, and leave it at that. blaugh
irish_eyes
Takai_desu_yo
irish_eyes
ugh, i hate utah (or more, the people of utah in general) every time i come here... im stuck in st. george for a couple of days sweatdrop

I'm stuck in St. George for a couple of years. I know how you feel. What are you doing here, anyway?


ehh, im already gone (phew sweatdrop ). i was just stopping on a road trip to visit some relatives.

very glad im back in california 3nodding


Hi Irish. I did a road trip to Utah of my own several weeks ago. It was great. We did the temple tour and everything... got to see the Conference center and go on the roof. I took plenty of pictures. We were visiting and staying with relatives as well, heh.
The fact of the matter is, that Mormons want their religion to be true, very badly, so they aren't going to let a few criticisms or "problems" get in the way of their unquestioning faith and loyalty. If you can't deal with it then you must lump it, cause that's the way it is. blaugh (I don't mean to sound so serious). Mormons love their religion... at least many seem to...and I think I am able to see things from their perspective to a degree and understand why. For me however, Mormonism is more fascinating than anything for a number of reasons I don't want to take time to recall at the moment, sorry. But on the other hand, I'm fairly rational, and when Mormonism claimed to be the truth faith, I spent over 9 months looking into it to see if it were so. No I did not look at only faith promoting material, or only that which is church sanctioned. I try to research both sides before making my conclusion.

For a long time, the Mormon church was extremely critical of the Christian world, claiming it was destitute of any truth, that all of Christianity was an abomination. Now suddenly, in recent times, it is trying to associate itself more and more with the so-called "church of abominations" and be seen as just another Christian denomination. The fact is, the Mormon theology is radically different from that presented in Bible-based Christianity. Either Mormonism is false or the rest of Christianity is false. Mormons teach salvation by works while Christians teach salvation by grace, two very different ideas. Either man is able to justify himself, or he is not. If he is not, then Mormonism could be a very dangerous practice. They say their faith is in Jesus but in practice, their faith rests upon doing those ordinances which they have been instructed they must perform if they are to be saved --that is, exalted into eternal life. There is no believing ON Jesus in Mormonism, they only believe in him inasfar as general resurrection is concerned. Mormonism teaches that God was once a sinner... a man, like any of us, in another time on another earth similar to this one, and that our God had to save himself by doing that which his God and the Gods before them had previously done. Mormons may deny this, or avoid talking about it, but it is central to their doctrine of eternal progression. If you are not progressing then you are damned. If the Lord God Elohim is not currently progressing still, then He is damned. Therefore there is no such thing as absolute "perfection" in Mormon theology, but an endless ladder of progression.

That is closer to Hinduism than the Biblically supported God. And this is only scratching the tip of the problems I see in Mormon doctrine and belief, historical or current.

That being said... I feel a sort of melancholy for those who were born and raised in the LDS and grow up having full trust in Joseph Smith and in their church. I like all the Mormons I've met, and don't ask me why, but despite it all, I still really like Mormonism, but I can't ignore that they are trusting in something to be true which isn't, and if I can feel pained on their behalf from that realization, think what those Mormons feel who "realize" for themselves that they've invested so much of their life into something that never was. Maybe the fear of that possibility is partially why many choose not to deal with their own doubts. There's more to it than that, of course...

Anyway, sorry to those Mormons here. I understand your need to rationalize everything away, even this post which you will undoubtedly do, because of the need to feel secure and right. That's fine. Things become confusing and complicated otherwise, as I should know.

Anyway, to conclude:

There are too many problems in Mormonism for it to be true, in my view.

I don't intend nor am I expecting to "convince" the Mormons here that they are wrong, because that's obviously not going to happen, no matter how many "problems" I present.

I am hoping that believing Mormons (and sincere, loving ppl of other faiths) are not automatically disqualified from being saved (having eternal life) (yes I know that sounds kinda rediculous to you LDS, since you have the opposite view). I'm probably still far from concluding one way or the other, and I'd like to hear from other Christians if they have any evidence one way or the other on whether they think Mormons can really be Christians, meaning, have saving faith. I'm really interested in solving this one.

Take care peeps.
By the way, on my question of whether Mormons can be Christians, I already know that much of the Mormon church's doctrine and theology runs counter to what is supported by the Bible. I'm asking about individual members and their faith, if despite some erroneous teachings, can they still have saving faith?
Mormons Rock!

I was up in Lancashire a few weeks ago on expedition and i met a group of Mormon-girls who were camping. A lot of it makes good sense, no caffeine means you're healthier. (Although i could never turn my back on my Earl Grey.)
No drugs is good for you, no smoking and no alcohol too. They'll sure as hell live longer than me!

Also they were very pretty girls indeed, good conversation too. Alas it seems such a waste that such tremendous girls lead such demure lives but they will do well from such a lifestyle.

Personally damn to the lot of it, roll on the Brandy and cigars. Run out the fine wine, the girls, the bebauchery. Goddamn it you only live once eh?

Regards,

Invictus
Invictus_88
Mormons Rock!

I was up in Lancashire a few weeks ago on expedition and i met a group of Mormon-girls who were camping. A lot of it makes good sense, no caffeine means you're healthier. (Although i could never turn my back on my Earl Grey.)
No drugs is good for you, no smoking and no alcohol too. They'll sure as hell live longer than me!

Also they were very pretty girls indeed, good conversation too. Alas it seems such a waste that such tremendous girls lead such demure lives but they will do well from such a lifestyle.

Personally damn to the lot of it, roll on the Brandy and cigars. Run out the fine wine, the girls, the bebauchery. Goddamn it you only live once eh?

Regards,

Invictus
Well thank you for the Mormons rock thing and Yes we do like to keep healthy but its also a matter of keeping our spiritual half clean of things which would impare our better thoughts. (thats the way I see it anyways)
Yup, it makes good sense. Purity of body, clarity of mind.

Although Sartre smoked a pipe so i'll use that to excuse my cigars. Not sure yet how to explain-away the womanising and alcohol though.

Damn i feel guilty,

Invictus
Invictus_88
Yup, it makes good sense. Purity of body, clarity of mind.

Although Sartre smoked a pipe so i'll use that to excuse my cigars. Not sure yet how to explain-away the womanising and alcohol though.

Damn i feel guilty,

Invictus
Well I suppose every man enjoys different aspects of life. I prefer the path I have chosen and you have chosen yours. I'm not tryin to convert anyone and thats probably the reason I wont be going on a mission. I don't see it as my place to tell people the way they should be living. I'm young I do stupid stuff from time to time everyone does, and frankly I'm not ok with leaving my family for 2 years with No priesthood member in the family around.
Aye, although the thinking behind abstinence from tea, coffee, alcohol..etc is to safeguard your health and to have emotio-psychological stability.

They kinda negated that by getting on sugar-highs to work around the scripture, lol. Respect to their resourcefulness though!
Hi everyone, I'm just dropping in to say hi to everyone (even the mormon bashers no reason we can't get along just cause of one despute am i right??) anyways I'm just chillin for now ttyl bye.
Apparently my last post was too long and got removed. grrr... Well here's the link... Exactly what I was looking for the other night:

<center>http://www.rossolson.org/religion/mormon.html</center>
excerpt from beginning:

"Are Mormons Christians?" by Stephen E. Robinson is a stimulating and well written book by a scholarly author well qualified for such an analysis. His work asks the right questions and, to my mind, answers them well with a couple of notable exceptions.

In brief summary, Robinson's thesis is that Latter Day Saints have been excluded from the larger Christian fold for a number of reasons he considers unfair. This is because the reasons are not based on facts or have been applied unevenly to other groups...


<center>http://www.rossolson.org/religion/mormon.html</center>
Apparently the Mormons gave up on their thread... sad
Yeah, it happens every once in a while. We won the internet.. But every once in a while a new level is released.
sheehandan

!!!!!

UTAH?! YOUR COMING TO UTAH?!

....

*coughs, and straightens his (non existant) tie*

Would you like to maybe... Go on a little date?

So sorry, I just left Utah yesterday.

*is very happy to be back in Sin City! * xp

Maybe next time I'm up there wink

Sidenote: They have a church music radio station. . . Why? Someone please tell me why!

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