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Anraleth's avatar

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xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxI will always be a pro choice person. Some people don't choose to get pregnant. Some people are lied to, deceived, raped, and alot of people are way too young and stupid to have children anyways, yet they do because they were too stupid to think about not having sex for five seconds and they don't want people who think 'oh hey this person is evil because they killed an unborn fetus' to bother them constantly.




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frozen_water

So is it not a baby until it can respond to stimuli?
based on the criteria to consider an organism living, it answered 6/8 questions so i think ill consider it now as living, ill consider fetus a baby. how about you? im still unsure though for i cant find the exact resource in the google if an embryo is a fetus and if a fetus is a baby. but they say fetuses cant feel pain until 28 weeks some say they start to respond stimuli at 5th week..
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20008829-10391704.html
Apoplexic
Lacarnum Inflamaurae
i know less sorry, so wanted to hear the stand of different people regarding this to get a more appropriate answers to my questions. what do you think will be the impact of abortion in a country, both good and bad (morality and economic basis?


Morality, as I stated in my first post, is largely defined by the religious views of the majority of the country (and peoples in general, as they tend to ignore arbitrary lines on pieces of paper).
If you want an example in the real world of the effects of abortion mandates in a country, look to China.

Economically, I don't see how it could be any different no matter which stance is taken. If abortion is to be outright banned everywhere, and people don't sneak off and get unsafe and unhealthy ones anyway (which they will, and have done since the dawn of man), then ostensibly you're worried about overpopulation.

But that, too, would work itself out eventually, through homelessness, poverty, and starvation.

To get back to the main point (I think), there should be no debate on the legality of abortions. Stigmatize the women all you want, but taking away the right of the individual choice is itself unethical. The only way a true resolution to this could occur would be either a precise definition of when a mass of cellular tissue is capable of sustaining itself outside of a host, or the dissolution of most religious beliefs.
Some chinese cook unborn babies and eat them, how would you consider them? and everything that has an opposition needs a debate to make the topic clearer for everyone.
heres a reference
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTTC_2OQ_XI
Jolie Maidele's avatar

Conservative Citizen

Apoplexic

Very true, but it can still extend further; that was more for the sperm/egg portion than the entirety of the development process, but you get that.

Still, take it out after a month and see what happens.

Granted, a fully healthy newborn baby isn't capable of living without the care and attention of others, but neither would it die instantly, such as an undeveloped fetus would. And if it is incapable of sustaining its existence outside of very specific conditions, it isn't alive.

I was going to mention newborn babies, since they are so dependent on others, but you're right there with me. I chose not to since, like you said, they won't die instantly.

Alright, so we've established that the zygote/embryo/early fetus is not capable of survival outside of the woman. If it is alive within her, taking it out would cause the death of it. So you're depriving it of life? If you're taking it out and causing it's death, when it would have otherwise still been alive, is that not killing?

This isn't really a point I was intending to make or even thought of earlier, but the life/inside -> death/outside made it come to mind
Anraleth
██I██Will██Forever██Be██Your██Kindest██Nightmare





xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxI will always be a pro choice person. Some people don't choose to get pregnant. Some people are lied to, deceived, raped, and alot of people are way too young and stupid to have children anyways, yet they do because they were too stupid to think about not having sex for five seconds and they don't want people who think 'oh hey this person is evil because they killed an unborn fetus' to bother them constantly.




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when will you consider a fetus as baby?
Apoplexic's avatar

Devoted Sweetheart

Lacarnum Inflamaurae
Some chinese cook unborn babies and eat them, how would you consider them? and everything that has an opposition needs a debate to make the topic clearer for everyone.
heres a reference
]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTTC_2OQ_XI


Sweetheart, that's not a reference. I could make a video just like that stating...I don't know, Play-Doh will grow to monstrous size and eat your children.

But, if that is true...the cannibalism and desecration of corpses are only taboo, again, due to religious beliefs. If they're not Christian (or most others, but still), then they can't be judged by the same standards, as those aren't the ones in which they believe.
frozen_water's avatar

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Lacarnum Inflamaurae
frozen_water

So is it not a baby until it can respond to stimuli?
based on the criteria to consider an organism living, it answered 6/8 questions so i think ill consider it now as living, ill consider fetus a baby. how about you? im still unsure though for i cant find the exact resource in the google if an embryo is a fetus and if a fetus is a baby. but they say fetuses cant feel pain until 28 weeks some say they start to respond stimuli at 5th week..
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504763_162-20008829-10391704.html
A fetus is not a baby, nothing technically speaking is a baby. Baby is not a technical term.

As to the question at hand, as baby isn't a technical term I don't have a point at which I believe cells become one. Although I suppose you'd find it helpful if I told you believe babies begin to develop their own existence during the second trimester. Although my understanding of this is not firm and my beliefs could be easily swayed on this point.
Anraleth's avatar

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Lacarnum Inflamaurae
when will you consider a fetus as baby?
██I██Will██Forever██Be██Your██Kindest██Nightmare





xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
When it comes out of a v****a? That's when I will say if you kill it, that's killing it.





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Apoplexic's avatar

Devoted Sweetheart

Jolie Maidele

I was going to mention newborn babies, since they are so dependent on others, but you're right there with me. I chose not to since, like you said, they won't die instantly.

Alright, so we've established that the zygote/embryo/early fetus is not capable of survival outside of the woman. If it is alive within her, taking it out would cause the death of it. So you're depriving it of life? If you're taking it out and causing it's death, when it would have otherwise still been alive, is that not killing?

This isn't really a point I was intending to make or even thought of earlier, but the life/inside -> death/outside made it come to mind


Nah, I'm not talking about a procedure to remove the organism, I'm making reference to some magical method whereby it is somehow outside the host, and only to facilitate that, as it is incapable of independent existence, it isn't really alive.

Extenuating circumstances aside, I wouldn't advocate abortion, especially not of my own offspring. But neither do I believe that the ability to make this choice should be taken away.
Apoplexic
Lacarnum Inflamaurae
Some chinese cook unborn babies and eat them, how would you consider them? and everything that has an opposition needs a debate to make the topic clearer for everyone.
heres a reference
]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTTC_2OQ_XI


Sweetheart, that's not a reference. I could make a video just like that stating...I don't know, Play-Doh will grow to monstrous size and eat your children.

But, if that is true...the cannibalism and desecration of corpses are only taboo, again, due to religious beliefs. If they're not Christian (or most others, but still), then they can't be judged by the same standards, as those aren't the ones in which they believe.those pictures were actually a protest about child cannibalism meaning it is happening
Anraleth
Lacarnum Inflamaurae
when will you consider a fetus as baby?
██I██Will██Forever██Be██Your██Kindest██Nightmare





xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
When it comes out of a v****a? That's when I will say if you kill it, that's killing it.





██Filled██With██Blood██Of██Beautiful██Colors
what do you think of people who say its ok to kill fetus because they cant feel pain yet?
Apoplexic's avatar

Devoted Sweetheart

Lacarnum Inflamaurae
those pictures were actually a protest about child cannibalism meaning it is happening


No. I'm sorry, but that was an amateur YouTube video. Show me factual proof that this is happening, and then we'll talk.
Apoplexic
Lacarnum Inflamaurae
those pictures were actually a protest about child cannibalism meaning it is happening


No. I'm sorry, but that was an amateur YouTube video. Show me factual proof that this is happening, and then we'll talk.
im making an assumption that it is happening
atleast i can show you these but theyre not 100% accurate as you said we can change stories in net
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/1986291-do-they-eat-babies-in-china
http://www.globaltruth.net/side112.html

smokes come out from fires
Apoplexic
is it ok if you abort a fetus who does not feel nothing but is actually living?
Anraleth's avatar

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Lacarnum Inflamaurae
what do you think of people who say its ok to kill fetus because they cant feel pain yet?
██I██Will██Forever██Be██Your██Kindest██Nightmare





xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
I think, since it's kind of still just like a little seed type thing and you can't hear it or feel it's pain, it doesn't really matter.
And sometimes, it's just better for the fetus. Some couples just make terrible parents, but they still keep the child because they're selfish and need to use it like an accessory. Like, "oh hey!~ This is such a cute little dress Imma buy it for my baby girl!" and yet they refuse to change the child's diaper until it's screaming and they just want it to stop screaming because they're on facebook trying to upload pictures of it so people can just be like, "oh my gosh congratulations your baby is so cute!" I'd rather something just not have existed than just have a non-important and uncared for existence.





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