Moffat Issues (Contains Discussion for Series 8 and prior)

[I-Stole-the-TARDIS]

The Telekinetic Toad

I don't think that's being sloppy at all. River comes to the library and sees a Doctor in a different regeneration. I don't think she assumes it's an earlier regeneration just because she notes he has a younger-looking face. And she doesn't just go around analyzing everything in seconds the way you have in retrospect. She's a person, not a calculator.

Oh, wait, my bad. You're right. She doesn't even realize how much younger he is until after she pulls out the diary. (I was going from memory and thought the younger line was first.) Thank you for making me rethink it. I didn't like being all disappointed with that bit, because Silence In the Library/Forest of the Dead is one of my favorite episodes. biggrin

The Telekinetic Toad

Agreed. As someone else put it, "The problem with the Smith era story arc, as far as I'm concerned, isn't that it's too complicated (although I still don't know why River needed that spacesuit). The problem is that it doesnt crescendo. Series 5 and 6 pile on mysteries one after another but then those mysteries are ignored until the series 7 finale, after which there's a mad rush to resolve everything in a couple of episodes."
It is very complicated, but I think the bigger issue is they didn't spend enough time resolving it.
What questions, particularly, though?

We are in agreement on this, I couldn't have put it better myself. The particular question that bugs me (and I may need to watch again to make sure I didn't miss anything) is: after Eleven regenerated, what happened to Trenzalore? He starts to regenerate, ending the siege, but then they just get in the Tardis and take off. We don't really know if the Time Lords stopped trying to get through or if the oldest question is still being asked. They obviously had control over the crack in the universe, would they have just sealed it after that? Or does Trenzalore just go back to being the way it was before the Doctor showed up? I like your theory at the top of the page, though, and they already set a precedent for it with Amy and Rory, but I still wouldn't mind seeing it come up again at some point. Preferably before we forget about it. (I totally would have forgotten about "the Moment" reference from The End of Time if it weren't for my fellow fans on the internet. blaugh

The Telekinetic Toad

The Doctor ended the Time War because Rassilon and the Time Council were planning to enact the Ultimate Sanction; their plan to destroy time and everything and survive past it into the next universe. They were still trying to do that when they came back in End of Time. I think that's a pretty good reason for the Doctor to do what he did.

That's also something I'd forgotten about, and explains a lot. I'd have thought that by ending the siege of Trenzalore there would be no enemies amassed to restart the Time War, and that it would have been safe to let Gallifrey return, but those crazy Time Lords can't be trusted, so I don't blame him for leaving them where they are. However, I'm surprised we've gotten this far into Capaldi's run without so much as a mention of it. The Doctor may have gotten a little too addled during regeneration for it to be fresh in his mind, but if I were Clara I'd be all over him about it. razz

The Telekinetic Toad

I feel like Moffat has a tendency to have quick, game-changing resolutions to major plot lines without enough explanation, and expects Whovians to be able to figure it out. Which is fine, we can figure it out. But his stories suffer for it.

^^^This, exactly. If I didn't have to try to figure so much of it out, I probably wouldn't nit pick it so badly. wink

[Recca Hino]

TheFourthDoctor

Edit: Also didn't notice the "the Doctor's true hearts"..... Nice cool

I add that last minute before submitting the post. A lot of times I preview them before posting.

To you point, that Dalek origin is a Retcon. As the origin in that episode didn't match the previous origin. You can't Blame the Doctor on the Dalek. He didn't stop their birth, but he is not their creator. That is actually a story that kind of annoyed me in Old Who. Still in a story about time travel things are bound to change. How many different ways has the earth been destroyed.

As to the Time Travelers, yeah now that you point it out, it does seem to be a recurring theme, but until proven otherwise I just think Moffat lacks originality. I have a whole topic as to why I hate Listen.

The Telekinetic Toad

The Doctor ended the Time War because Rassilon and the Time Council were planning to enact the Ultimate Sanction; their plan to destroy time and everything and survive past it into the next universe. They were still trying to do that when they came back in End of Time. I think that's a pretty good reason for the Doctor to do what he did.

That something that strikes me as ood, wait odd. Why? They new the Doctor had the Moment, they knew the result if he uses it so what was the point of destroying everything? For all they knew the Doctor was about to do that anyway. The Moment is that powerful isn't it?

[I-Stole-the-TARDIS]

Recca Hino

I have a whole topic as to why I hate Listen.

Ooh, I need to go find that. Glad I'm not the only one. wink

Recca Hino

That something that strikes me as ood, wait odd.

rofl heart

[Recca Hino]

I-Stole-the-TARDIS

Recca Hino

I have a whole topic as to why I hate Listen.

Ooh, I need to go find that. Glad I'm not the only one. wink

Recca Hino

That something that strikes me as ood, wait odd.

rofl heart

Ood was a typo that I fixed and then decided to put back because it was like the hearts thing. Anyway here you go:
http://www.gaiaonline.com/forum/doctor-who/spoilers-listen-spoilers/t.94107385/

[The Telekinetic Toad]

Recca Hino

The Telekinetic Toad

The Doctor ended the Time War because Rassilon and the Time Council were planning to enact the Ultimate Sanction; their plan to destroy time and everything and survive past it into the next universe. They were still trying to do that when they came back in End of Time. I think that's a pretty good reason for the Doctor to do what he did.

That something that strikes me as ood, wait odd. Why? They new the Doctor had the Moment, they knew the result if he uses it so what was the point of destroying everything? For all they knew the Doctor was about to do that anyway. The Moment is that powerful isn't it?

The Moment was going to destroy everything in the Time Lock that was placed around the Time War zone.

The Time Council during the Time War decided to use the Ultimate Sanction to not only "win" the war, but to win the universe. They were going to destroy EVERYTHING and be the only survivors.
The Doctor was going to use the Moment to stop this and end the time war first.
The Time Council predicted this, and made their plan to survive it. They implanted the signal in The Master's head as a young boy. That signal was the 4 drum beats. It allowed them to return, specifically to the Master's location, in The End of Time.
There, they were STILL planning on using the Ultimate Sanction, so Tennant's Doctor had to get rid of them again.

[The Telekinetic Toad]

I didn't like Listen either. Mostly because it didn't seem to have a real conflict or resolution.

I-Stole-The-TARDIS

We are in agreement on this, I couldn't have put it better myself. The particular question that bugs me (and I may need to watch again to make sure I didn't miss anything) is: after Eleven regenerated, what happened to Trenzalore? He starts to regenerate, ending the siege, but then they just get in the Tardis and take off. We don't really know if the Time Lords stopped trying to get through or if the oldest question is still being asked. They obviously had control over the crack in the universe, would they have just sealed it after that? Or does Trenzalore just go back to being the way it was before the Doctor showed up? I like your theory at the top of the page, though, and they already set a precedent for it with Amy and Rory, but I still wouldn't mind seeing it come up again at some point. Preferably before we forget about it. (I totally would have forgotten about "the Moment" reference from The End of Time if it weren't for my fellow fans on the internet.

Ooh, that's a good question. I hope we revisit Trenzalore in the future.

And thanks. I don't really think my theory will come true though. There's way too many possible ways they can go, it's almost impossible to predict. I just love this kinda timey-wimey stuff though, so I can't help but think it through.

[COCKATRlCE]

Ms Spork

🐾 Your sigpic made me giggle. cat_whee

[Recca Hino]

Missy being the Master is just another Moffat thing that annoys me. I mean for crying out loud it leaked as far back as Deep Breath. He knew if leaked. I know the first few episodes were finished, but he should have changed the final few. Something to surprise us.

[Recca Hino]

Well the season is over and Moffat didn't fix a damn thing. Instead they're even more convoluted and annoying.

So was the Doctor a lonely child or was the Master his best friend. Moffat can't even keep his own bloody continuity strait.

[The Telekinetic Toad]

I liked the finale. The only things that bugged me were;

1. Missy's plan didn't make much sense. I mean, I guess it might just be because she's crazy... but I was disappointed when she just

gave the Doctor control of the Cybermen.

Anti-climactic.
2. The Nethersphere was a poorly explained concept. She called it a Matrix time slice. The Matrix existed in Classic Who stories. There, the way it worked was that the Time Lords used it to store copies of the consciousnesses of people at different points in their own timelines, as just data without their bodies. And Time Lords themselves could enter the Matrix physically, with their bodies, to interact with these "records".
Presumably,

Missy and Seb were entering the Matrix time slice physically, while the rest of the people there were just stored minds/consciousnesses, since their bodies were still seen coming out of graves and morgues when they were turned into Cybermen. Then, how does the kid magically have a body at the end, when Danny sends him back?

3. I still don't like Clara. Danny was alright this episode. Clara is not a good person.

[Kizu-Ato]

The Telekinetic Toad

Presumably,

Missy and Seb were entering the Matrix time slice physically, while the rest of the people there were just stored minds/consciousnesses, since their bodies were still seen coming out of graves and morgues when they were turned into Cybermen. Then, how does the kid magically have a body at the end, when Danny sends him back?

Seb was an AI interface. . so he had no physical body. . .and I think they showed those in the Nethersphere with bodies so that we wouldn't be watching and listening to data click through the matrix data slice — a Gallifreyan hard drive. . .

When the Doctor met Clara he mentioned that he was glad that Danny figured out how he could return. . .since Danny's real body had been destroyed when he and the Cybermen blew up the clouds, so the bracelet must have had a way to restore his body. . or in this case, the kid's body.

[The Telekinetic Toad]

Kizu-Ato

The Telekinetic Toad

Presumably,

Missy and Seb were entering the Matrix time slice physically, while the rest of the people there were just stored minds/consciousnesses, since their bodies were still seen coming out of graves and morgues when they were turned into Cybermen. Then, how does the kid magically have a body at the end, when Danny sends him back?

Seb was an AI interface. . so he had no physical body. . .and I think they showed those in the Nethersphere with bodies so that we wouldn't be watching and listening to data click through the matrix data slice — a Gallifreyan hard drive. . .

When the Doctor met Clara he mentioned that he was glad that Danny figured out how he could return. . .since Danny's real body had been destroyed when he and the Cybermen blew up the clouds, so the bracelet must have had a way to restore his body. . or in this case, the kid's body.

Yeah, maybe the data stored in the matrix time slice is sufficient to recreate the person's body in the real world using the bracelet. That would mean the afghani kid was in a new body that had just been created, from his stored genetic information. That makes sense.
But we saw Seb in the real world next to Missy when she was watching the Doctor fall out of the plane. That could have been a projection. But I thought that scene showed he was a real person.

[Kizu-Ato]

The Telekinetic Toad

Kizu-Ato

The Telekinetic Toad

Presumably,

Missy and Seb were entering the Matrix time slice physically, while the rest of the people there were just stored minds/consciousnesses, since their bodies were still seen coming out of graves and morgues when they were turned into Cybermen. Then, how does the kid magically have a body at the end, when Danny sends him back?

Seb was an AI interface. . so he had no physical body. . .and I think they showed those in the Nethersphere with bodies so that we wouldn't be watching and listening to data click through the matrix data slice — a Gallifreyan hard drive. . .

When the Doctor met Clara he mentioned that he was glad that Danny figured out how he could return. . .since Danny's real body had been destroyed when he and the Cybermen blew up the clouds, so the bracelet must have had a way to restore his body. . or in this case, the kid's body.

Yeah, maybe the data stored in the matrix time slice is sufficient to recreate the person's body in the real world using the bracelet. That would mean the afghani kid was in a new body that had just been created, from his stored genetic information. That makes sense.
But we saw Seb in the real world next to Missy when she was watching the Doctor fall out of the plane. That could have been a projection. But I thought that scene showed he was a real person.

Missy was standing next to him in the Netherworld, watching the Doctor plummeting on a big screen. . .Seb never left the Netherworld

[The Telekinetic Toad]

Kizu-Ato

The Telekinetic Toad

Kizu-Ato

The Telekinetic Toad

Presumably,

Missy and Seb were entering the Matrix time slice physically, while the rest of the people there were just stored minds/consciousnesses, since their bodies were still seen coming out of graves and morgues when they were turned into Cybermen. Then, how does the kid magically have a body at the end, when Danny sends him back?

Seb was an AI interface. . so he had no physical body. . .and I think they showed those in the Nethersphere with bodies so that we wouldn't be watching and listening to data click through the matrix data slice — a Gallifreyan hard drive. . .

When the Doctor met Clara he mentioned that he was glad that Danny figured out how he could return. . .since Danny's real body had been destroyed when he and the Cybermen blew up the clouds, so the bracelet must have had a way to restore his body. . or in this case, the kid's body.

Yeah, maybe the data stored in the matrix time slice is sufficient to recreate the person's body in the real world using the bracelet. That would mean the afghani kid was in a new body that had just been created, from his stored genetic information. That makes sense.
But we saw Seb in the real world next to Missy when she was watching the Doctor fall out of the plane. That could have been a projection. But I thought that scene showed he was a real person.

Missy was standing next to him in the Netherworld, watching the Doctor plummeting on a big screen. . .Seb never left the Netherworld

Ah... Right you are. Looking back on it now, that was really clear. I guess I wasn't paying much attention to their surroundings.

[Recca Hino]

While I still haven't finished 8, I did see the season ender. I didn't care for it. Unit showing up as they did....the Osgood dieing. "The Brig" I don't even think that was the Brig since we now have confirmation in Season Nine's trailer that as we suspected Missy is alive.