Eizoryu
This is a different stance on the subject. I'd like to ask why you think considering a character to be a Sue/Stu is invalid.
I'm going to rephrase your statement to make sure we are talking about the same thing. Yes, there are characters that meet the Sue/Stu criteria - but think calling someone a Mary Sue as a
criticism is ridiculous.
Kaiser-chan (above) wrote out a pretty good summary of why I think it's ridiculous/invalid. Because "Sue-ism" is primarily about female characters - about people trashing and obsessing over the validity of a female character - it is sexist, and I practicing something sexist is ever a good way to evaluate the world, seeing as sexism is morally and intellectually wrong.
If you want to talk about why Bella Swan (for example) isn't a good/effective character, that's perfectly fine with me. I could give you reasons myself. But if your default argument is, "She's a Mary Sue," that's 1.) a lazy explanation seeing as MS tends to be so arbitrarily defined and received (literally, anything can make you a Sue), and 2.) because of aforementioned reasons, is riddled with sexist standards for a good character, and therefore I have little reason to believe anybody is judging the character with any sort of objectivity - that is, MS usually biases the critic from the start.
Also 3.) I think Mary Sue has created a phenomenon among certain writers/storytellers where they automatically devalue certain traits, characters, or kinds of stories (both their own, and others) simply because those things are associated with the Mary Sue, and not because those things are inherently invaluable or unlikable.
I didn't always think this way, but a few things opened up my eyes. The first was that this term is disproportionally applied to female characters and used to criticize female authors; the second was watching people all over the Internet stress out about whether or not their characters are Sues, especially female characters, such that it became about a bullet point list rather than what happens in the story. Thirdly, the minute I first saw a thread entitled, "Real-Life Sues" I threw up my hands. If primary objective of a good character is a believable character, and if real people meet the criteria of Mary Sue all the time (and they do, all the time), what does that say?
On the other hand, or in conjunction, if the primary objective of a good character is to create a character people can appreciate/enjoy and/or want to read about - Bella Swan, the current Hallmark of the Mary Sue, makes a fantastic character. Yeah, not
everyone loves her (including me), but enough people did and do. Not just the power-fantasy gets-all-the-men aspect; I actually have a friend who said she knew exactly what Bella meant when she described her feelings about certain matters. So how is being a Mary Sue suddenly such a terrible thing? How is that a criticism at all?
Actually, I recently found
this really excellent post on Tumblr that pretty well articulates the sexist nature of the Mary Sue, and why there is really nothing wrong with it. Sue or not, at the end of the day how many points your character racks up on the Mary Sue scale doesn't mean anything. Except for the crowd obsessed with finding and preventing Mary Sues, nobody is going to hate or love a character
because they are a Sue. People judge characters by how effectively those characters communicate with the reader in a story, and that communication is not defined by the all-encompassing (there's a Sue for every kind of character) definition of the Sue.
In fact, the term Mary Sue started as a result of an apparently ineffective character in a Star Trek fan fiction.
Characters aren't ineffective because they are Sues; characters are ineffective because they are ineffective. Mary Sue is no good way to term that ineffectiveness when it is 1.) sexist and therefore inconsistently applied with bias, 2.) routinely used to label characters whom a lot of people love and find effective anyway (Bella Swan, case in point).*
I should also add, that yes there are many things I don't like about Bella Swan, things that I think make her a somewhat ineffective character. I don't attribute any of those to Mary Sue. Also, as Kaiser-chan pointed out, some of us don't enjoy enjoy power-fantasies, which is perfectly alright:
Kaiser-chan
I don't much like Mary Sues, because I'm not usually into the same power fantasies as their creators are. I tend to dislike characters that are grossly perfect and powerful just because I can't find anything of purchase on them for myself.
But this is one type of reader. Some people really enjoy power-fantasies, myself included, and I hardly it makes sense to criticize a character for simply playing to those desires.
/god that is long. Hope it makes sense.