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[Philosophy] Where Do Idea's Come From? Idea Of God?

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How Did The Idea Of God/A Perfect Being Emerge?
We created him, the idea of him/a perfect being
72%
 72%  [ 13 ]
We were influenced by a perfect being to have the idea of a perfect being, aka, god.
27%
 27%  [ 5 ]
The Bible Says So, AKA, I don't know where the idea originally came from.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 18


Syntria
Captain

PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:04 am


I'm really not great with wording things, or using the correct terms but.

Where do Idea's come from? How are they created and maintained.

Do we innately have any when we are born or are we born 'blank slate'

Are all of our idea's from material things we see and thus think about and develop idea's concerning, or do we have some that are simply there, free from material/external influence?

Where does the idea of a all perfect being come from, given that we ourselves are not perfect and thus shouldn't beable to create an idea out of something we ourselves are not?
Examples
From nothing, nothing comes.
From flawed, only flawed or nothing come of it
If so, there for From perfection, only perfection can come, or can from perfection, something flawed be created?
PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:34 pm


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I believe that ideas come from conciousness. With conciousness, comes self-conciousness. With self-conciousness comes the longing for being better. From being better, a definition of 'perfect' emerges.Then people want to become that perfect being. So they create a being that is considered 'perfect.' Eventually they start believeing that this person is allmighty (in whatever field they specialize in). One of the few examples against this would be the Greek gods having flaws. Even though they were perfect in what they did, they weren't in other things. But for completely all-mighty gods, they are the follower's definition of 'perfect.' Eventually this leads tto a religion with people thinking that whatever the idea they created might say is law. And it just keeps on going until a religion is made. This is in a sense of the gods.

Regular ideas on the other hand I believe come from yourself. From others come the basic skills to gain ideas and knowledge. Once you get the basics down, you can let your mind run free and think of new things. Those ideas have then both come from outside knowledge combined with imagination, which is completely unexplainable.

-[[Yreka!]]-
Crew


Starlock
Crew

PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:53 am


(grins) Well, Starlock has some rather unusual but well-thought out explanations for this, but instead of dribbling on with them, I'll throw out a common parable I use to get across the thrust of the concept.

Quote:
If the pencil never existed before we as a species invented it, it would not be here.
PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:44 am


This guild's little quote or headline can answer or lead to answers to your question. Cogito Ergo Sum
I think therefore I am. Don't misinterpret that statement. It's not like the little engine that could "if I believe I can do it" or "I believe I can be anything I wanna be."
Cogito Ergo Sum is a proof for your existance. I think therefore I am. Where do my ideas come from? They come from me . They are not coming from god or another all-powerful being. Cogito Ergo Sum proves that you exist, it doesn't prove that anything else exists. So if you've ever doubted your existance, here's proof that you exist. I'm short on time so I can't elaborate but if you want more info you should read Decarte's Meditations. I think they can answer lots of your questions. I'm pretty sure you can find them on the internet somewhere.

One more thing. From nothing comes nothing, from flawed only flawed comes. But from perfection, can only perfection come? If something is perfect then it has everything and is not lacking anything, right? If it was lacking something, then it wouldn't be perfect. So if something that is perfect cannot create something flawed, then that something that is perfect lacks something. It lacks the ability to create something flawed, and that would make it imperfect.
Conclusion: Flawed things CAN come out of perfection.

Thank you for listening

linxx85


Starlock
Crew

PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 12:47 pm


I have never baught "cogito ergo sum" as proof of one's existence. If thinking is being done, that's it. It does not prove that there is some individual discreet entity doing the thinking, only that the thoughts exist and are being thought of. The argument itself strikes me as circular.

linxx85

One more thing. From nothing comes nothing, from flawed only flawed comes. But from perfection, can only perfection come? If something is perfect then it has everything and is not lacking anything, right? If it was lacking something, then it wouldn't be perfect. So if something that is perfect cannot create something flawed, then that something that is perfect lacks something. It lacks the ability to create something flawed, and that would make it imperfect.
Conclusion: Flawed things CAN come out of perfection.


A few questions to raise. You say that from flawed only flawed comes. This in itself is flawed as we know scientifically due to a phenomena called the 'emergent property.' A structure is more than the sum of its parts alone. Also, 'flawed' is a somewhat arbitrary description. To say something is 'flawed' is to incorrectly assume that there is a 'whole' or 'perfect' state. Perfection has many definitions, but they all still boil down to the eye of the beholder. What if all is in reality perfect and whole but it is our choice to see everything as flawed?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:02 pm


Starlock
What if all is in reality perfect and whole but it is our choice to see everything as flawed?
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Let me add something to this argument. Do people seem to have flaws? Yes. Do some people choose not so see those flaws? Yes. Reality is basically as warped as the mind is, but there is a chance for reality to be 'perfect,' whenever we can figure out what reality and perfect are.

In the sense of Starlock's last line, seeing the possibly superficial flaws would make the observer flawed. For if we could not see reality, then we wouldn't be anything until definitions for everything have been solidified.

-[[Yreka!]]-
Crew


linxx85

PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:16 am


Starlock
I have never baught "cogito ergo sum" as proof of one's existence. If thinking is being done, that's it. It does not prove that there is some individual discreet entity doing the thinking, only that the thoughts exist and are being thought of. The argument itself strikes me as circular.

linxx85

One more thing. From nothing comes nothing, from flawed only flawed comes. But from perfection, can only perfection come? If something is perfect then it has everything and is not lacking anything, right? If it was lacking something, then it wouldn't be perfect. So if something that is perfect cannot create something flawed, then that something that is perfect lacks something. It lacks the ability to create something flawed, and that would make it imperfect.
Conclusion: Flawed things CAN come out of perfection.


A few questions to raise. You say that from flawed only flawed comes. This in itself is flawed as we know scientifically due to a phenomena called the 'emergent property.' A structure is more than the sum of its parts alone. Also, 'flawed' is a somewhat arbitrary description. To say something is 'flawed' is to incorrectly assume that there is a 'whole' or 'perfect' state. Perfection has many definitions, but they all still boil down to the eye of the beholder. What if all is in reality perfect and whole but it is our choice to see everything as flawed?


I'm sorry starlock, but cogito ergo sum is a proof. It proves you exist. I'm the one that thought up cogito ergo sum, it was descartes. So if you doubt me, then you can go ahead and read his Meditations.
PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 10:22 am


Starlock

A few questions to raise. You say that from flawed only flawed comes.?


I was only quoting the person that started this topic.

linxx85


-[[Yreka!]]-
Crew

PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:33 pm


linxx85

I'm sorry starlock, but cogito ergo sum is a proof. It proves you exist. I'm the one that thought up cogito ergo sum, it was descartes. So if you doubt me, then you can go ahead and read his Meditations.
-[User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show. domokun User Image - Blocked by "Display Image" Settings. Click to show.]-

Then we'd have to define cogito ergo sum. As with everything else known and unknown which would be impossible until everything was known, whatever everything is. Besides, it started off just as a thought and remains so. There is no answer to this.
PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 12:08 am


I don't know where idea's come from and all that, biology and brainology isn't my strong point.

However, I feel intelligent and informed enough to talk about the concept of a perfect being.

Religion, and god, is the science of early years, or rather, it was developed (more like, realized) to explain the unexplainable. Whether or not "God" originally started out as a perfect being is debatable. Certianly in many polytheist religions their gods have weaknesses and vulnerabilities, so they can hardly be called perfect. Even in Judaism, espcially if you know Hebrew and read the original text, God is hardly portrayed as perfect. Omnipotent, but perfectly able to make mistakes.

Physics (at least to my knowledge) seems to support the idea of "From nothing, nothing comes," and I see no reason to dispute the laws that govern the universe.

Obviously, since a flawed thing cannot know perfection, it cannot make perfection. Thus follows, a perfect being does not know flaw, and cannot make a flawed thing.

You could say humans are flawed, but than i'd have to ask, what is perfection? Aren't we perfectly suited for our world? Evolution would imply as such, as we should be the "fittest" to survive. Does the fact that people kill and steal and act human count as a flaw? Of course, were that true, we'd always make perfect things, which obviously isn't the case.

Therefore, the concept of perfection is false, since everything can only be measured according to our minds. I suppose then, that using logical process, the concept of a perfect being is also false.

Lieutenant_Charon


nightwing773

PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:51 pm


I believe we created gods in our need for something to be there for us to lean on and talk to for hope in seemingly hopeless times. As a friend of mine so crudely put it, God is an imaginary friend for adults. I'm ok with religions, so please don't jump on me for this, but I love religions and am fairly religious, but I've been praying for two decades and never got anything from it. I believe that just like a lonely child creates an imaginary friend, lonely and troubled adults created god, the perfect being to rely on and lean on, but also to place blame without fear of retribution.

And going completely off from the previous paragraph, and continuing the talk...
From nothing comes nothing, from flawed only flawed comes. From perfection, only perfection can come.
From nothing, everything comes, from flawed comes perfection, and from perfection comes flaws.

Everything came from nothing originally, and from the so called flawed comes the opinion of perfection from something. From the opinion of perfection comes seeing the beauty of the flaws.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:57 pm


linxx85
From nothing comes nothing, from flawed only flawed comes. But from perfection, can only perfection come? If something is perfect then it has everything and is not lacking anything, right? If it was lacking something, then it wouldn't be perfect. So if something that is perfect cannot create something flawed, then that something that is perfect lacks something. It lacks the ability to create something flawed, and that would make it imperfect.
Conclusion: Flawed things CAN come out of perfection.
I think that says it...

[Madoc]


maybecca

PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 10:31 pm


Lieutenant_Charon
You could say humans are flawed, but than i'd have to ask, what is perfection? Aren't we perfectly suited for our world? Evolution would imply as such, as we should be the "fittest" to survive.

Evolution implies no such thing. Evolution doesn't make creatures perfectly suited to their environment - it makes them good enough to survive and reproduce. There are many improvements which could be made to the basic human body - our eyes, for example, have significant design flaws which some other species do not have - squid have a different (superior) design to us.

It's about being fit enough compared to your competitors, not perfectly fit.
PostPosted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:41 am


chrisoya
Lieutenant_Charon
You could say humans are flawed, but than i'd have to ask, what is perfection? Aren't we perfectly suited for our world? Evolution would imply as such, as we should be the "fittest" to survive.

Evolution implies no such thing. Evolution doesn't make creatures perfectly suited to their environment - it makes them good enough to survive and reproduce. There are many improvements which could be made to the basic human body - our eyes, for example, have significant design flaws which some other species do not have - squid have a different (superior) design to us.

It's about being fit enough compared to your competitors, not perfectly fit.


Just to add another bit to this wounderful post... it isn't always about competition either... it is sometimes about cooperation. Organisms working together in a collective to better their chances of survival as a whole is also an important element. Often that gets missed by those who don't study evolutionary theory.

Starlock
Crew

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