Teen sex with 18+ people and abortion? Discuss.

[[gossamer]!smile.]

So. Here's the long story:

CandyPanda

[gossamer]!smile.

Pastoral

[gossamer]!smile.

IndividuallyFrostedCakes

Love between two consenting adults is fine.

Between a man/woman and a child who can not legally give consent, is wrong. They are too young to know what they are doing at that age.

You can't prove that they can't consent.
neutral

If you say that,, then the converse is true: you can't prove that a child CAN consent.
Look, if you had a good thing with a twenty year-old, whatever. Pursue that relationship privately, but don't you DARE ask for it to be freely legalized. It sets a devastating precedent in regards to kids that might not be as prepared as you and adults that might not have intentions as good as your older partner's. What works in YOUR life will not work for a NATION. If you think otherwise, you're the most self-centered person I've ever encountered.

Then maybe abortion should be illegal? A person could end up regretting it. If you want an abortion, get it privately (wirehangersLOL) but don't you DARE as for it to be freely legalized. You're setting a dangerous precedent for women and teen girls that are hormonally controlled and can't think straight. They could regret it. If you say abortions should be legalized, you're the most self-centered person I know.





Now do you see how <********> stupid you sound?

Please, don't turn this into an abortion debate. talk2hand

I'm for abortion. Idiot.

Quote:

Abortion and ***** are ENTIRELY DIFFERENT DEBATES!!! scream

Like how?

They're practically the same. The majority once thought abortions were wrong, so it was outlawed. But since people actually like being able to chose what they want to do with their bodies, they un-banned it.

I don't know about the other 14 year olds out there, but I enjoy sex. And if you don't, then fine! Just don't force me into submission with laws that say I can't ******** who I want to ******** is it that pro-choicers advocate a teenaged girl's right to get an abortion (a major choice that the teenager has no life expirience about, and could possibly mentally scar them forever) but say it's sick for them to want to screw a person over eighteen? Hypocrites.

Quote:

But, in reply to your post, why don't we make pregnancy illegal? So that teenagers and young women who are hormonally controlled and can't think stright, don't go through with the pregnancy and regret it because they are too young, uneducated and poor to raise the baby properly?

Because it's their choice.
So allow them to ******** why they want to-
because it's their choice.
Jesus Christ.
By your definition, a teenaged girl can't
consent to an abortion seeing as she isn't
mentally developed enough.


And here's the short story. If a teen girl cannot have sex with a man over 18 years of age because she isn't mentally capable- what makes her mentally capable to make a choice like abortion? If you support a teen's right to an abortion then you must support her right to sexing up whoever she wants to at any age, because she can make her own choices about her own body. If not, then you're a horrible hypocrite.  

[MipsyKitten]

WRONG. You have shown on more than one occasion that you believe that your life choices should be respected. Adults ******** young teenagers is illegal, pointless and moronic. Your responces are filled with ad homs, because you can't see past your own childish logic. Everything that person said is correct. Underage children and young teens having sex with older teens is not the same as abortion. I find it ******** retarded when people have to link everything with abortion, the second their stance is challenged with actual logic.

"Well, you say we shouldn't be able to run in front of a car to kill ourselves, beause it's our own choice. You're not pro-choice!"

By doing something that is harmful to another human being, and can hurt their future, you are not making your own choice. You are in control of that other person's life.

And just because that person said adults having sex with children is wrong, doesn't mean they don't enjoy sex, which is what you insinuated.  

[Aiko_Kaida]

There is a lot of evidence that shows that children are incapable of giving informed consent. The word "INFORMED" is the real important part here. Informed consent means that the person consenting is mentally capable of understanding the possible consequences of their actions. For example, when someone volunteers to be a part of a medical study they can't just say "Sure I agree". First they have to be informed of all the possible side effects of being in the study and what the study is going to involved.
Children are incapable of giving informed consent because of their cognitive, emotional, and social development. Because of their cognitive development they are unable to completely understand what sex consists of and what the possible consequences of sex are. Because of their emotional and social development and lack of life experience they are easily manipulated by adults and can be manipulated into saying yes to something that they do not really understand and/or want.

Research in psychology shows that it isn't until around the age of 16-18 that people have the cognitive, emotional and social development to give informed consent. Thats why we we have so many restrictions for teenagers (driving, consenting to medical care, tattoos, piercings, smoking, alcohol, etc).

Please don't make debates about the age of consent into abortion debates. The two issues should not be intertwined.
I am pro-choice and adamantly in favor of keeping the age of consent at age 16 and prosecuting adults who have sex with teenagers.

There is a huge difference between allowing a teenage girl to have an abortion and not allowing a teenage girl to have sex.
Forcing a girl to continue a pregnancy against her will is a violation of her body. It is an intrusion upon her body. It forces her to undergo the pain and risks of pregnancy.
Not allowing a girl to have sex is not a violation of her body. It does not intrude upon her bodily domain. It does not force her to undergo pain, suffering, or risk. Creating limits for teenagers/children is for their own protection and safety.

I thought a lot like you when I was a teenager. But since then I've had three years of education in psychology and I understand exactly why we can not allow adults to have sex with minors.  

[[gossamer]!smile.]

Aiko_Kaida

Not allowing a girl to have sex is not a violation of her body. It does not intrude upon her bodily domain.

It's not allowing that person to make a choice about/for their own body, which is technically against BD, correct?

Quote:

It does not force her to undergo pain, suffering, or risk.

But what if she wants the sex.
Supressing sexual desires could be potentially damaging.

Quote:

Creating limits for teenagers/children is for their own protection and safety.

Which is why teens shouldn't have abortions. How can they possibly know if they don't want the baby or not? They could be mentally scarred if they get it. After all, we're looking out for their protection, huh?

But wait- what happens when they don't want your protection?
Then you shouldn't force it down their throats. <3

Quote:

I thought a lot like you when I was a teenager.

Don't dare compare us again.

Quote:

But since then I've had three years of education in psychology

What you learn in school isn't always correct.
For a while they were teaching the sun revolved around the earth.
And I'm betting alot of the tests were highly biased.
It's like asking a Catholic if absitence is the best choice,
and they give you test results saying that it is-
but the place that did the tests were Catholic controlled.

Quote:

and I understand exactly why we can not allow adults to have sex with minors.

And that's because you think they cannot choose for themselves. Fine. But don't be a hypocrite about it and advocate their right to make other possibly damaging, life changing choices.  

[PersephoneMediocris]

Forced pregnancy violates a young girls bodily domain and can cause her harm and pain. Not being able to screw a 50 year old pervert won't hurt her one bit. In fact it'll help her because that way she might be less likely to get an STD a more experianced guy might have.  

[[gossamer]!smile.]

MipsyKitten

WRONG.

LOL GD much?

Quote:

You have shown on more than one occasion that you believe that your life choices should be respected.

What? You don't?

Quote:

Adults ******** young teenagers is illegal,

No s**t.

Quote:

pointless

Proof/how so?

Quote:

and moronic.

Good thing you're not biased or anything.
lol

Quote:

Your responces are filled with ad homs,

Blah blah blah your needs.

Quote:

because you can't see past your own childish logic.

Prove my logic is childish.

I already proved yours to be hypocritical.

Quote:

Everything that person said is correct.

Again-
good thing you're not biased.

Quote:

Underage children and young teens having sex with older teens is not the same as abortion.

Proof?

Or at least some logic behind that statment?

Quote:

I find it ******** retarded when people have to link everything with abortion, the second their stance is challenged with actual logic.

That was a pretty stupid response, milady.
But I'm the forgive and forget type.
I'll ignore that you're being stupid here. ;D

Quote:

"Well, you say we shouldn't be able to run in front of a car to kill ourselves, beause it's our own choice. You're not pro-choice!"

Hey. It's not my body. If they want to, they can. You disagree? Jesus you're a hypocrite. neutral

Quote:

By doing something that is harmful to another human being, and can hurt their future, you are not making your own choice. You are in control of that other person's life.

"Hey! Kinda like abortion on a teen, huh?
O:
Wow. Maybe this is why Mickey said such things...
good think I can think this through and not be a ******** and rant on like that kitty girl"
- My friend Andrew, just like...three seconds ago.

Quote:

And just because that person said adults having sex with children is wrong, doesn't mean they don't enjoy sex, which is what you insinuated.

Well they must have something against sex.  

[[gossamer]!smile.]

PersephoneMediocris

Forced pregnancy violates a young girls bodily domain and can cause her harm and pain. Not being able to screw a 50 year old pervert won't hurt her one bit. In fact it'll help her because that way she might be less likely to get an STD a more experianced guy might have.

What makes him a pervert?


Okay, new scenario.
The chick's preggors and wants to keep the baby.
Her parents want to force her into an abortion.
Hell, it won't cause her harm and it'll even help her!
Is this okay? Hell no, because it's not the teen's choice.

Same with sex. Durka durka durka.  

[PersephoneMediocris]

[gossamer]!smile.

Aiko_Kaida

Not allowing a girl to have sex is not a violation of her body. It does not intrude upon her bodily domain.

It's not allowing that person to make a choice about/for their own body, which is technically against BD, correct?

No, BD has more to do with the right to control what goes on in your own body. If it applied to everything you do with your body we might as well apply it to strangling whoever you don't like.

Quote:

Quote:

It does not force her to undergo pain, suffering, or risk.

But what if she wants the sex.
Supressing sexual desires could be potentially damaging.

She can masturbate or have sex with someone her own age.

Quote:

Quote:

Creating limits for teenagers/children is for their own protection and safety.

Which is why teens shouldn't have abortions. How can they possibly know if they don't want the baby or not? They could be mentally scarred if they get it. After all, we're looking out for their protection, huh?

But wait- what happens when they don't want your protection?
Then you shouldn't force it down their throats. <3

But not being allowed getting abortion violates her body and causes harm to her person. Not sleeping with some old ***** won't take away from her bodily domain one bit. And even if she doesn't want protection later on she'll probably be glad she had it. Sleeping with some old freako is bad for her because she's too young to be able to give informed consent so chances are she doesn't actually want to sleep with him. It's like when you were two and you wanted to touch the stove. Had you been informed of the situation and the consequences of your action you wouldn't have wanted to. Do you think toddlers should be allowed to get themselves killed?

Quote:

Quote:

I thought a lot like you when I was a teenager.

Don't dare compare us again.

I thought the same way when I was like 12. I'm 14 now and I see why those laws are there and agree with them now.

Quote:

Quote:

But since then I've had three years of education in psychology

What you learn in school isn't always correct.
For a while they were teaching the sun revolved around the earth.
And I'm betting alot of the tests were highly biased.
It's like asking a Catholic if absitence is the best choice,
and they give you test results saying that it is-
but the place that did the tests were Catholic controlled.

Basic facts of psycology are pretty hard to bias as they come directly from real research and statistics.

Quote:

Quote:

and I understand exactly why we can not allow adults to have sex with minors.

And that's because you think they cannot choose for themselves. Fine. But don't be a hypocrite about it and advocate their right to make other possibly damaging, life changing choices.

But the right to choose abortion is choosing the less harmful option! And again with the BD! She's controlling what goes on her own body.  

[PersephoneMediocris]

[gossamer]!smile.

PersephoneMediocris

Forced pregnancy violates a young girls bodily domain and can cause her harm and pain. Not being able to screw a 50 year old pervert won't hurt her one bit. In fact it'll help her because that way she might be less likely to get an STD a more experianced guy might have.

What makes him a pervert?


Okay, new scenario.
The chick's preggors and wants to keep the baby.
Her parents want to force her into an abortion.
Hell, it won't cause her harm and it'll even help her!
Is this okay? Hell no, because it's not the teen's choice.

Same with sex. Durka durka durka.

He's a pervert because he wants to have sex with a child. Maybe ***** is a better word. And her wanting to give birth is different. It's going on in her body and it effects the fetus as well as herself. She can use to give fetus life but ******** a ***** is only helping his perverted desires.  

[[gossamer]!smile.]

PersephoneMediocris

[gossamer]!smile.

PersephoneMediocris

Forced pregnancy violates a young girls bodily domain and can cause her harm and pain. Not being able to screw a 50 year old pervert won't hurt her one bit. In fact it'll help her because that way she might be less likely to get an STD a more experianced guy might have.

What makes him a pervert?


Okay, new scenario.
The chick's preggors and wants to keep the baby.
Her parents want to force her into an abortion.
Hell, it won't cause her harm and it'll even help her!
Is this okay? Hell no, because it's not the teen's choice.

Same with sex. Durka durka durka.

He's a pervert because he wants to have sex with a child. Maybe ***** is a better word. And her wanting to give birth is different. It's going on in her body and it effects the fetus as well as herself. She can use to give fetus life but ******** a ***** is only helping his perverted desires.

All I see from you is "perverted old man" and "******** *****", so chances are that you're entirely too biased to even continue debating with. If you can even call this debating. It's more like you're saying your personal opinion (***** is perverted and sick and wrong) and so it therefore should be outlawed.

Prove to me than a fifteen year old girl is any less capable to give consent to sex with a twenty year old male than an eighteen year old female. You really can't, seeing as how everyone developes differently. It takes a special person to be smart enough to actually think that far ahead and figure it out.

You're fourteen? So am I. Maybe if you gave it thought, then you'd understand. Instead you go off of what you've been told, and you've been taught by obviously biased persons.

"***** harms people" is a bullshit excuse, seeing as drinking, abortion, child birth and smokeing (as well as millions of other things) can harm you mentally, physically and socailly. Saying the person can't consent is also bullshit, because there's no proof that not all teens can't give consent.

Also, prove to me that a teen can make a better choice with abortion than they can with sex. That really ******** pisses me off. It makes no sense. "Uh...she's too stupid to allow a man to stick his peen0r in her vagoo, but she's smart enough to lie to her parent's about spending the night at Sally-Sue's house and go out to get a fetus sucked out of her womb". It's not even remotely ******** logical.  

[Aiko_Kaida]

[gossamer]!smile.

Aiko_Kaida

Not allowing a girl to have sex is not a violation of her body. It does not intrude upon her bodily domain.

It's not allowing that person to make a choice about/for their own body, which is technically against BD, correct?

No. Forced pregnancy violates bodily domain because it is a physical violation of the body.

[gossamer]!smile.

Quote:

It does not force her to undergo pain, suffering, or risk.

But what if she wants the sex.
Supressing sexual desires could be potentially damaging.

Support for your argument please?
Not allowing teens to have sex with adults is not damaging. It does not physically harm them and I have seen no evidence in my three years in college that it could cause psychological harm. All of their physical and social needs can be met without having sex. Sexual release can still be achieved through masturbation.

[gossamer]!smile.

Quote:

Creating limits for teenagers/children is for their own protection and safety.

Which is why teens shouldn't have abortions. How can they possibly know if they don't want the baby or not? They could be mentally scarred if they get it. After all, we're looking out for their protection, huh?

Again, forcing a woman to continue a pregnancy violates her bodily domain because it physically violates her body. In cases of bodily domain teens are allowed to make decisions for themselves. For example, a teen can not be forced to submit to a pelvic exam because it is a violation of their body.
If you would like to argue that we should eliminate restrictions on sex then perhaps we should start taking away all those other restrictions we place on teens for similar reasons. Should we let anyone drive a car as soon as they can reach the peddles? Should they be able to smoke and drink as young as they like? Should a thirteen year old be able to make the choice to drop out of school?
Right now the way things work is that if it violates the child/teens body they have the right to refuse it (pregnancy, pelvic exams etc). If it does not violate their body, then their parents and/or government have the authority to make the decisions because the child does not have the mental capacity for informed consent.

[gossamer]!smile.

But wait- what happens when they don't want your protection?
Then you shouldn't force it down their throats. <3
My friend's two year old doesn't want to sit in her car seat. Should we stop forcing that down her throat?

[gossamer]!smile.

Quote:

I thought a lot like you when I was a teenager.

Don't dare compare us again.?

Don't worry about that. Now that I have seen the rest of your arguments it's very clear that I we are nothing alike.

[gossamer]!smile.

Quote:

But since then I've had three years of education in psychology

What you learn in school isn't always correct.
For a while they were teaching the sun revolved around the earth.
And I'm betting alot of the tests were highly biased.
It's like asking a Catholic if absitence is the best choice,
and they give you test results saying that it is-
but the place that did the tests were Catholic controlled.?

What kind of education do you have? Are you even out of high school.
Maybe you don't understand how a college level education works.
In psychology you don't study one theory or one view. You study dozens, and sometimes they contradict one another. I have studied dozens of brilliant theorists from around the world and from different times. Nearly all agree, children are incapable of consent. Modern psychology research is done very carefully and is held to very high standards. Research is constantly reviewed and repeated to ensure that bias is not interfering. Psychology is a science. Comparing it to catholicism is just ridiculous.

[gossamer]!smile.

Quote:

and I understand exactly why we can not allow adults to have sex with minors.

And that's because you think they cannot choose for themselves. Fine. But don't be a hypocrite about it and advocate their right to make other possibly damaging, life changing choices.

Are you still incapable of seeing the difference between forcing a girl to remain pregnant and not allowing a girl to have sex with an adult?
Honestly, I'm surprised that someone who calls themselves pro-choice could be so ignorant about the issues surrounding abortion and consent.

 

[Half Baked SF]

I'm not so sure about how I feel with ***** (though technically what you're talking about isn't *****), but in general I wouldn't care if I found out that a 14-year-old was having sex with someone overage.

I see where you were going with that debate and bringing abortion into it. I bring in analogies all the time in debates. Unfortunately, people in the ED can't seem to look past the concrete scope of the debate and look at comparisons between two different events.

Oh, by the way? Anyone who uses this emote --> scream in a semi-serious discussion is childish, IMO.  

[Talon-chan]

I haven't read everything....

There is empirical datat that shows that the brain develops a whole hell of a lot after the age of 12, and then gradually slows until it is where it shall be for all adulthood. Think of the natural log curve, drastic growth in the begining that slows until development is barely noticable. It's like that.

I don't know what consent is (defined in location of the brain), or how consent abilities develop in the brain, but there is compelling reason to believe that 12 year olds do not have it, but by the age of 18-20 most have acquired it (though some may be slow and take longer than that).

18 is arbitrary. There may be no difference between a 16 year old girl and a 18 year old boy (since girls are typically 2 years ahead of boys in mental growth), but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

I do not believe that the vast majority of 14 year olds are able to consent to sex anymore than they are able to consent into entering a legally binding contract. I do not think, though, that 18 is some rigid magical number that grants that ability.  

[Aiko_Kaida]

Talon-chan

I haven't read everything....

There is empirical datat that shows that the brain develops a whole hell of a lot after the age of 12, and then gradually slows until it is where it shall be for all adulthood. Think of the natural log curve, drastic growth in the begining that slows until development is barely noticable. It's like that.

I don't know what consent is (defined in location of the brain), or how consent abilities develop in the brain, but there is compelling reason to believe that 12 year olds do not have it, but by the age of 18-20 most have acquired it (though some may be slow and take longer than that).

18 is arbitrary. There may be no difference between a 16 year old girl and a 18 year old boy (since girls are typically 2 years ahead of boys in mental growth), but the line has to be drawn somewhere.

I do not believe that the vast majority of 14 year olds are able to consent to sex anymore than they are able to consent into entering a legally binding contract. I do not think, though, that 18 is some rigid magical number that grants that ability.

The ability to give informed consent would be determined by reasoning and risk assessment abilities. Reasoning and risk assessment take place primarily in the frontal lobe of the brain. It just happens that the frontal lobe of the brain is the very last part of the brain to develop (it isn't completely finished until 25!) By 18 the frontal lobe is reasonably well developed (which is why 18 is a reasonable age for adulthood to officially begin) , but during the teen years it's pretty under developed. You've probably heard people talk about how teens thing they are going to live forever and always things "that can't happen to me", well thats because the frontal lobe isn't developed enough for teens to see that it is very likely that things are going to happen to them and they aren't going to live forever.
This lack of frontal lobe development means that a kid who is 13 is much less skilled than someone who is 18 at assessing how risky it may be to have sex. An 18 year old is going to be better able to assess how likely they are to get pregnant, contract an STD, or end up heartbroken because of their choice of mate. A 13 year old is far more likely to believe that they will be ok without using a condom "just this once" because they don't have the brain development to think through the issue completely. They are way more likely to take unnecessary risks.

18 isn't some rigid magic number. It's really hard to know exactly when someone's brain is developed enough to give informed consent. But our best guess is that it's somewhere between 16 and 18.  

[Electric Kool-Aid]

My two cents for what it's worth-

Maturity- is relative. I know college kids who act more immature than my friend who's a kindergartner. So mental maturity must be taken into account. the problem here as i see it is that what's right for some people isn't right for others. Example-I'm 16. My best friend is 18. Technically if I had sex with him , he could get in a truckload of trouble with statutory. But I know that if that happened it'd be by MY consent and he wouldn't pressure me. So basically you're having an argument over a case sensative thing and trying to squeeze everyone into a box that makes sense for the laws. Laws tend to be black and white (good. bad.) But in a case like this it's difficult because everything is shades of grey. But the other thing is-take it to court. When my friend was 16, he lost his virginity with his 18 year old girlfriend. She had to go to court with him and explain that it wasn't statutory because of the circumstances and it was by his consent and he has no misgivings.

But yes, it's best not to mix issues while debating, it just gets people confusted.>.<