Why are Catholic hospitals allowed to deny medications?

[Tragic Christmas]

nobhdy

Tragic Christmas

Yes, proclaiming to be a doctor or a pharmacist yet refusing to serve people according to personal prejudices NEVER hurt people. Don't put yourself in a position of authority to perform services for the public if you think you're too good for certain members. Religion is no ******** excuse for incompetence.

You win. You know better than everyone else in the world. Why don't you just be the supreme dictator and tell every business what to do based on what you think they should do and while we're at it, why don't you tell everybody what they should do with their person?

That's cute. Are businesses under a strict code that obligates them to impartially deal with human lives? This isn't a case where a convenience store owner is being told that he can't kick loitering people off his property. But if you are a doctor or a pharmacist, it is your duty to treat people or dispense the appropriate medicine. If you can't do that, then don't associate yourself with that particular profession and put others at risk. If you are a property owner who want to have an army of anti-birth control advocates, then form a goddamn club in a treehouse or something. But don't open up a so-called hospital and prevent medical professionals from doing what they're legally compelled to do.

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How can you be pro-choice when it comes to one's person, but not when it comes to their property?

If someone's actions on their property deliberately puts the health of others at risk, that is no longer protected under the right to bodily integrity. They are free to exercise their anti-birth control beliefs in a setting where they won't play around with human lives.

Quote:

That is called a reductio ad absurdium. Something we learned in logic class(yes, I am studying constituional law...)

I'm sure in logic class, you also learn about the rules of classification and definitions. Contrary to the beliefs of anti-choicers, it is not my duty to be pregnant for the good of others just because I have a uterus. However, it is a hospital staff's duty to use their medical training to better human life, regardless of how they feel about a patient's lifestyle.  

[nobhdy]

Tragic Christmas

Contrary to the beliefs of anti-choicers, it is not my duty to be pregnant for the good of others just because I have a uterus. However, it is a hospital staff's duty to use their medical training to better human life, regardless of how they feel about a patient's lifestyle.

To me, it is the exact same. You both are falsely defining something.  

[KoopaTroopa18]

I hope I never go to one of those hospitals for anything. gonk  

[nobhdy]

I didn't see this earlier, but I suppose I will answer these questions. I am very interested in what you are speculating:


1) How old are you?
-20 years old

2) Do you live with your parents?
-No.

3) Are you in full time education?
-Yes, I am at the University, studying law.

4) Where do you live?
-I live on campus, in Tempe, AZ.

5) Do your parents have insurance, and if so, are you included?
-Yes, my mother(only parent), has insurance. I am not included.

6) If you live on your own, do you have your own insurance?
-I have my own insurance policy which is entirely unrelated to my mother's policy.

7) If you have insurance, do you get it fthrough your job, or do you go somewhere else?

-I get it through the United States Government, as my father was a politican. What he did was that he paid some of his monthly salary into a fund so that in the event that he died, his son would get insurance until age 21. He did die, and the Government is granting me my own insurance policy until the end of my 21st year. It was a program that they used to do.

---------------
Now what are you getting at?  

[Tragic Christmas]

nobhdy

Tragic Christmas

Contrary to the beliefs of anti-choicers, it is not my duty to be pregnant for the good of others just because I have a uterus. However, it is a hospital staff's duty to use their medical training to better human life, regardless of how they feel about a patient's lifestyle.

To me, it is the exact same. You both are falsely defining something.

I love how you keep replying to little snippets of my post without bothering to actually comprehend the difference between a private business and a social service with legal obligations to the public.

Then tell me another reason why anti-choicers would want abortion banned if not for their skewed reasoning that forced pregnancy and birth contributes to the greater good. If you do somehow think that my definitions are wrong and that a woman has a duty to use her uterus to serve the public, what the ******** are you doing in the pro-choice guild?  

[nobhdy]

Tragic Christmas

I love how you keep replying to little snippets of my post without bothering to actually comprehend the difference between a private business and a social service with legal obligations to the public.

Then tell me another reason why anti-choicers would want abortion banned if not for their skewed reasoning that forced pregnancy and birth contributes to the greater good. If you do somehow think that my definitions are wrong and that a woman has a duty to use her uterus to serve the public, what the ******** are you doing in the pro-choice guild?

1. Show me these legal obligations that you are referencing.

2. I was disagreeing with your definition of hospital. I was saying that both you and the pro-lifer are falsely defining something. For crying out loud, it was one clear, concise sentence. Did you even read it?

I said both you and the pro-lifer are falsely defining something!  

[Tragic Christmas]

nobhdy

Tragic Christmas

I love how you keep replying to little snippets of my post without bothering to actually comprehend the difference between a private business and a social service with legal obligations to the public.

Then tell me another reason why anti-choicers would want abortion banned if not for their skewed reasoning that forced pregnancy and birth contributes to the greater good. If you do somehow think that my definitions are wrong and that a woman has a duty to use her uterus to serve the public, what the ******** are you doing in the pro-choice guild?

1. Show me these legal obligations that you are referencing.

If you insist on ignoring common sense that health care professionals are not permitted to discriminate based on their personal beliefs and put them over the well-being of their patients, then I will.

The Patients' Bill of Rights and Responsibilities

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The Right to Information. Patients have the right to receive accurate, easily understood information to assist them in making informed decisions about their health plans, facilities and professionals.

The Right to Choose. Patients have the right to a choice of health care providers that is sufficient to assure access to appropriate high-quality health care including giving women access to qualified specialists such as obstetrician-gynecologists and giving patients with serious medical conditions and chronic illnesses access to specialists.

Access to Emergency Services. Patients have the right to access emergency health services when and where the need arises. Health plans should provide payment when a patient presents himself/herself to any emergency department with acute symptoms of sufficient severity "including severe pain" that a "prudent layperson" could reasonably expect the absence of medical attention to result in placing that consumer's health in serious jeopardy, serious impairment to bodily functions, or serious dysfunction of any bodily organ or part.

Care Without Discrimination. Patients have the right to considerate, respectful care from all members of the health care industry at all times and under all circumstances. Patients must not be discriminated against in the marketing or enrollment or in the provision of health care services, consistent with the benefits covered in their policy and/or as required by law, based on race, ethnicity, national origin, religion, sex, age, current or anticipated mental or physical disability, sexual orientation, genetic information, or source of payment.

The World Medical Association - International Code of Ethics

Quote:

THE HEALTH OF MY PATIENT will be my first consideration;

I WILL NOT PERMIT considerations of age, disease or disability, creed, ethnic origin, gender, nationality, political affiliation, race, sexual orientation, social standing or any other factor to intervene between my duty and my patient;

So much for judgment according to religious bias and a patient's lifestyle.

Quote:

2. I was disagreeing with your definition of hospital.

I

it is a hospital staff's duty to use their medical training to better human life, regardless of how they feel about a patient's lifestyle

Did you honestly think that hospital staff have the right to discriminate against the ill by placing their beliefs above human lives?

As evidenced by government health policies and the international code of ethics, they clearly don't.

Quote:

I was saying that both you and the pro-lifer are falsely defining something. For crying out loud, it was one clear, concise sentence. Did you even read it?

I said both you and the pro-lifer are falsely defining something!

I defined the beliefs of anti-choicers, my duty (or lack thereof) as a woman with a uterus, and a hospital staff's duty for practicing medicine. Don't be petulant because you spouted a vague one-liner about how I was "falsely defining" something out of the three, a claim you have yet to even explain or prove.  

[MipsyKitten]

SterileNeedles and nobhdy,

NEITHER of you have to worry about your health needs. You can either get it for free, or extremely low cost. It's perfectly fine for you to say hospitals can do what they want, treat people how they want too, and that other's should just find another hospital when you don't have to worry about the cost.

I have NO insurence. I am broke most of the time due to me having to pay rent and bills. I can not drive myself anywhere. I dont' have the luxury of asking my parents to come over and help, as neither of them live in the same country as me. If I was in an area where there was only one private, Catholic hospital, and they denied my EBC I would be up s**t Creek without a paddle. I would have to abort myself, or find someone to do it for me, as I can not get to the nearest PP.

When you understand that it doesn't ******** matter what you have in YOUR town, what YOU'VE paid for services, how YOU get there or how YOU think they should be able to handle things. My body is not yours. I'm not you. I don't have your options. I have a limited number of things I can do, and I have to deal with that. You ahev no right to say medical professionals should be able to deny people treatment based on their own religious morals. When you do this people die, or have their lives seriously ******** up.

But then again, it's nice to just be able to sit back and have everything taken care of for you, isn't it?  

[SterileNeedles]

MipsyKitten

SterileNeedles and nobhdy,

NEITHER of you have to worry about your health needs. You can either get it for free, or extremely low cost. It's perfectly fine for you to say hospitals can do what they want, treat people how they want too, and that other's should just find another hospital when you don't have to worry about the cost.

I have NO insurence. I am broke most of the time due to me having to pay rent and bills. I can not drive myself anywhere. I dont' have the luxury of asking my parents to come over and help, as neither of them live in the same country as me. If I was in an area where there was only one private, Catholic hospital, and they denied my EBC I would be up s**t Creek without a paddle. I would have to abort myself, or find someone to do it for me, as I can not get to the nearest PP.

When you understand that it doesn't ******** matter what you have in YOUR town, what YOU'VE paid for services, how YOU get there or how YOU think they should be able to handle things. My body is not yours. I'm not you. I don't have your options. I have a limited number of things I can do, and I have to deal with that. You ahev no right to say medical professionals should be able to deny people treatment based on their own religious morals. When you do this people die, or have their lives seriously ******** up.

But then again, it's nice to just be able to sit back and have everything taken care of for you, isn't it?

Ok. Well I guess it's not enough that I apologized for what I said. Do you want me to get down on me knees and kiss your feet while I'm at it?

I didn't even know that hospitals dispensed birth control. I know they probably would give out emergency contraception for rape victims that walk in there (except possibly the Catholic hospital). But I got my birth control prescribed at my local doctor's office by my gynecologist. Not at a hospital. Are you serious about there being only a single hospital in these areas? They don't even have a regular doctor's office where they go to get check-ups and stuff? Or even a local pharmacy? Just a hospital? No walgreens pharmacy, or Wal-Mart or anything like that, just a hospital?

You're probably going to hate me more for saying this and I will probably have a petition for me being kicked out of the guild but: If you know that there is only one hospital in your area (not even a doctor's office or a pharmacy or anything else) and it's a Catholic hospital and you know that they will not give you BC/EC if you have an accident, then why would you want to take that risk? (god now I feel like a lifer rambling about risks xP ). Is it possible that your boyfriend/fiance/husband or another friend that has access to a vehicle could go out of their way to drive you to a different clinic/hospital/doctor's office/whatever where you can get your EC/BC if needed? Why don't people make out a plan and think these things through before the accident happens? That way you'd be prepared if it did.

Or I suppose you could picket/petition or do something in the community to get a different hospital built that offers these things (or at least get a freaking doctor's office built or a pharmacy, wow, I still am having trouble believing that there are none of these even in rural areas, I must be too sheltered) Or you could try and force the Catholics to go against their beliefs and have the government force them to dispense EC/BC. I don't know. I am just trying to help. Trying to throw out ideas for options that you could use in case anything like this happened. But You all seem so set on standing in a Catholic hospital and demanding they give you your BC/EC when they probably don't even have it stocked. So whatever, I tried to use my noggin here and give all sorts of options to help, but do what you want. I don't care anymore.  

[nobhdy]

MipsyKitten

SterileNeedles and nobhdy,

NEITHER of you have to worry about your health needs. You can either get it for free, or extremely low cost. It's perfectly fine for you to say hospitals can do what they want, treat people how they want too, and that other's should just find another hospital when you don't have to worry about the cost.

I have NO insurence. I am broke most of the time due to me having to pay rent and bills. I can not drive myself anywhere. I dont' have the luxury of asking my parents to come over and help, as neither of them live in the same country as me. If I was in an area where there was only one private, Catholic hospital, and they denied my EBC I would be up s**t Creek without a paddle. I would have to abort myself, or find someone to do it for me, as I can not get to the nearest PP.

When you understand that it doesn't ******** matter what you have in YOUR town, what YOU'VE paid for services, how YOU get there or how YOU think they should be able to handle things. My body is not yours. I'm not you. I don't have your options. I have a limited number of things I can do, and I have to deal with that. You ahev no right to say medical professionals should be able to deny people treatment based on their own religious morals. When you do this people die, or have their lives seriously ******** up.

But then again, it's nice to just be able to sit back and have everything taken care of for you, isn't it?

Oh, yes. What an extreme luxury I have. I have insurance because and only because my father died. Lucky me! You know, I come from a family that is technically below the poverty line. The only reason I even have insurance at all is because he died, and it expires next year. Don't patronize me.

I don't have everything taken care of. I have to pay for school all by myself, but its necessary. I know what its like to be poor, and in this country, if you put your mind to it, you can advance into a new economic class! That is what I'm doing at the University.

I'm making my life better by working hard. Why don't you do the same instead of demanding the government take care of you?  

[MipsyKitten]

nobhdy

Oh, yes. What an extreme luxury I have. I have insurance because and only because my father died. Lucky me!

Sprry, I didn't know you needed sympathy. I don't do that.

nobhdy

You know, I come from a family that is technically below the poverty line. The only reason I even have insurance at all is because he died, and it expires next year. Don't patronize me.

Grow up then. If you had to include 'technically', then you didn't have it as bad as you want us to think. You can go on about how poor you were, but it doens't change the fact that you think it's so easy to get health care now. That is not the case. If you looked outside your bubble, you'd see that.

nobhdy

I don't have everything taken care of. I have to pay for school all by myself, but its necessary. I know what its like to be poor, and in this country, if you put your mind to it, you can advance into a new economic class! That is what I'm doing at the University.

That's what they tell the white kids. Those of us who've actually lived on our own, struggled, eatten nothing but ramen and canned soup for two weeks know differently.

nobhdy

I'm making my life better by working hard. Why don't you do the same instead of demanding the government take care of you?

Please point out where I've ever said I wanted the government to do anything other than what they're supposed to do. 'Working hard' means s**t when you have people put obsticles in your way, and laugh when you can't overcome them. Don't even bother with "well if you just work hard, and put your mind too it!", because that's a crock of s**t. There are people out there who want to trip you up, and when you can't even get the help you need to recover, you're as good as ********.  

[October Cross]

MipsyKitten:

"That's what they tell the white kids. Those of us who've actually lived on our own, struggled, eatten nothing but ramen and canned soup for two weeks know differently. "

I agree. I've lived off of a box of noodles for a month just to keep the lights on. Nothing beats figuring out how many different sauces you can put on plain a** noodles, including ranch dressing and hot sauce.  

[nobhdy]

Firstly, I wasn't calling for sympathy. I was just stating a simple conditional statement. I wouldn't have health insurance unless that condition was fufilled, so I can respect how difficult it is to get. Please don't patronize me.

Secondly, the HHS Poverty guidelines state that for a family of three, the poverty line is below $16,600. Well, when I lived with my mother and brother, we were below that. Hence the technically. I no longer live with them, you see, and since I left, they are now above the $13,200 yearly required for two people.

Thirdly, I wouldn't know what they told the "white kids," because you see, I am Cherokee. You think people haven't put obstacles in our way? Please don't patronize me. Please don't tell me about, "looking outside my bubble." I know what life is like, and I, of all people, would know that people can work hard, and it will work out for them.

I don't look for help when I fall, because I know that I will never get it. I only look to myself.

I also know that if a kid like me can work hard, and study law, and maybe some day become a lawyer, then that is truly a beautiful thing. My father didn't even graduate High School, and I'm studying to become a lawyer!

This nation works if you'd let it. You just need to stop looking for people to help you, and prop yourself up on your own two feet. That's what my experiences have taught me, and I now have a great life ahead of me.