Why are Catholic hospitals allowed to deny medications?

[PhaedraMcSpiffy]

SterileNeedles

Nethilia

SterileNeedles

Well ok then. You're just gonna have to deal with that one hospital that you don't like then or drive way out to somewhere else to get what you want. xP

A woman should not be made to drive out of her way because the nearest hospital thinks that abortion and ECP is murder. Not to mention, not everyone can drive, has the money to drive that far, or is in an urban area that means going hundreds of miles out of her way to get health care because Catholics seem to think they have the right to make others follow their faith. Health care should not be based on the whims of a religion. In no other job is someone allowed to use their religion to not do a job whatsoever.

If Catholic Hospitals want to deny birth control and contraception, fine. But they should not be allowed to be the only hospital in the area.

As for the "hospitals aren't the only areas" situation--in many places, they are. Again, do not assume that people can easily access a Planned Parenthood or other clinic. In Only 13% of counties in the US have abortion services available. In Mississippi, there's ONE clinic that provides abortion, and they're trying to shut it down. There are thousands of women living there; they should not be made to drive to Louisiana or even further because some people think their faith overrides someone's rights.

Sticking stumbling blocks in front of women seeking health services and saying "sucks to be you" is not pro-choice. It's classist, racist, and divisive.

We've got enough "just suck it up and deal" assholes on the anti-choice side. I don't need them on my side too.

Then do something about it! God! Don't sit around whining about how women can't get there contraceptives in certain rural areas because of whatever. I already gave an example of what choicers could do, which is band together and make a charity and get donations, give donations etc. to help build public hopsitals or private hospitals or whatever that offer contraceptives, I'm sure that there are many other things choicers could do as well to help. And as soon as I give a suggestion of what people could do to help out these women I get the 'buts'. "But they won't band together blah blah." So I figured fine then, if you're just going to sit around and whine about how women can't get their contraceptives and blame Christians for all the s**t going on and imply that you want to force a private hospital to go completely against their morals and give abortions to women then whatever. I'm just going to be passive about the subject. I see no reason to argue about it if you're all just going to whine and b***h about Christians and how they're ******** everything up.

And don't give me that "Well pro-lifers will protest and stop us," "Their voices are louder than ours" bull-s**t because I've seen you guys in action and I have never seen you guys back down in the debate thread, so why would you ever back down in the real world?

Abortion became legal thanks to the strong and loud voices of choicers in the 60s-70s. I'm sure we could be just as loud again and get together and demand that the government, or whoever, or do it ourselves and build these hosptials/abortion clinics/pharmacies/etc. and get these women their contraception that they need in their areas.

While I agree 100% with what Nethilia said... I also agree with your call to action. The truth is, we do need to start acting up. But it's easier said than done. That's why people speak their minds online. It's easy. If you're harassed there you can escape. It would be suicide for some of us to out ourselves as pro-choice. And even for those who wouldn't lose that much, it's really hard to be called a "baby killer" by people you would otherwise treat you decent.

But I agree. When we're silent, we're helping the other side. That's why the pro-lifers have been so successful. The pro-choice side thinks their rights are guaranteed, and we're often shamed into silence. That leaves it wide open for the anti-choice side--a radical minority-- to overpower our voices. Our shame, our silence, out complacency is their power.  

[PhaedraMcSpiffy]

SterileNeedles

PhaedraMcSpiffy

Just as Nethilia said, sitting back and letting this happen is not pro-choice.

So what are you doing to help fix this then? Argue about it on the Internet? In fact I am curious, I see a lot of people complain about this stuff on here, what have you all done to try and help fix these problems that you all have such an issue with?

This brings up another reason why I can't do much: I'm seventeen! I'm just starting out and wet behind the ears. I suppose I can go to marches and do volunteer work, but... I don't have a car or a license and I'm miles away from public transportation.

I like to think of myself as dormant right now, waiting until I can do something. Building up. But I've got a lot of stuff going on right now.

And I don't know what my career should be, but I'd like to help protect, educate people about and provide reproductive/sexual health services. I'm just not sure if I'm headed for that.  

[nobhdy]

PhaedraMcSpiffy

There is a demand for abortion services everywhere that it not being met. Look at the examples of Mississippi just stated. And think of South Dakota! There must be a demand there, and yet it is illegal for there to be a supply.

Hospitals don't offer abortion services. That's not even what we were talking about, we were talking about offering contraceptives.

PhaedraMcSpiffy

Just as Nethilia said, sitting back and letting this happen is not pro-choice.

Depriving somebody the right to choose what to do with their private property is anti-choice. Its that simple. You can't honestly believe that forcing somebody to comply with you is promoting choice...

PhaedraMcSpiffy

Convenience is relative. And I really hope you aren't implying that women have abortions just for "convenience", because that's absurd and implies that women who have abortions have no moral standards. I'm sure women have used abortion "just for convenience", but that doesn't mean we all just go out and get them for the hell of it.

I was not even talking about abortion. This thread is not even about abortion. Why are you bringing abortion into it? The convenience that I was referencing is forcing hospitals to dispense contraceptives.

PhaedraMcSpiffy

Here's my suggested revision to that analogy: A HOSPITAL whose policy is to have no maternity ward or services to help pregnant women deliver babies because they are against overpopulation or something.

Or a hospital who refused to treat attempted suicides or people with illnesses caused by drugs, alchohol, or obesity because "it's their fault." Or something.

Alot of hopistals don't have maternity wards. There are all sorts of speciality hospitals. There are trauma centers, children's hospitals, geriatric hostpials and specialized surgical hospitals.

Hell, they even have hospitals that ONLY have maternity wards.  

[Nethilia]

SterileNeedles

*long stuff*

So what, talking on the internet about things that piss me off in a guild designed for that means I do NOTHING off line? Try again.  

[SterileNeedles]

Nethilia

SterileNeedles

*long stuff*

So what, talking on the internet about things that piss me off in a guild designed for that means I do NOTHING off line? Try again.

Well sorry. From the way you all complain about the Christians "OMG oh noes they're taking over!!!!!111one!1" "Aaahhh! The lifers won't let clinics be built" "They won't give me my contraception wahh!" You all make it sound like choicers are doing nothing to fix these problems. I mean honestly, if there are women being denied the medical care they need/want in certain areas why aren't choicers who are so concerned about it out there protesting?

But if you are doing things and complaining at the same time, then go you. I just hate it when people complain and don't do anything about it. But I suppose that is a personal pet peeve of mine, I probably shouldn't have brought it up. So I'm sorry, I apologize for making suggestions to help fix these problems. You are entitled to whine and be prejudice against Christians, so please continue.  

[Nethilia]

SterileNeedles

Well sorry. From the way you all complain about the Christians "OMG oh noes they're taking over!!!!!111one!1" "Aaahhh! The lifers won't let clinics be built" "They won't give me my contraception wahh!" You all make it sound like choicers are doing nothing to fix these problems. I mean honestly, if there are women being denied the medical care they need/want in certain areas why aren't choicers who are so concerned about it out there protesting?

"Oh no! People are complaining about things online! Clearly they're not talking about them offline as well and aren't doing anything but being whiny babies!"

As for protesting, my method of battling anti-choicers is not walking out to protest. I reform through education and knowledge. Marching does s**t all if people won't learn. Each of us have our own ways of protesting the march to take away abortion rights; just because I don't do it the way you think I should doesn't mean I don't do it at ALL.

You made the assumption, you own up to the assumption when you get called on it instead of backpedaling.  

[nobhdy]

Nethilia

You made the assumption, you own up to the assumption when you get called on it instead of backpedaling.

She is owning up to it. Since when is offering a rational explination for an opinion "backpedaling?" Did you read the last sentance of her most recent post? It expresses her initial concern AGAIN. She is owning up to it, and expressing where she is coming from at that.

No need to so adamantly defend yourself, friend. You personally weren't even under attack in the first place.

Please try to understand the issue. Alot of hospitals don't have birth control avaliable. Why? It isn't something hospitals traditionally do. Hospitals offer HEALTH CARE to people who have AILMENTS. Do you guys not know what a hospital is?

Now if you go to a OBGYN/Planned Parenthood/Pediatrition/General Practitioner you can get birth control/contraceptives. I did some research, and our local hospital here doesn't vend birth control. Know why? Because it is not the traditional role of hospitals.

Now please, stop bickering.

(for the record, our local hospital is run by a non-for-profit private owner, and not any church)  

[MipsyKitten]

SterileNeedles and nobhdy, answer these questions.

1) How old are you?
2) Do you live with your parents?
3) Are you in full time education?
4) Where do you live?
5) Do your parents have insurance, and if so, are you included?
6) If you live on your own, do you have your own insurance?
7) If you have insurance, do you get it fthrough your job, or do you go somewhere else?

I have an idea as to why you're both acting the way you are, so I'm asking these questions to confirm.  

[PhaedraMcSpiffy]

nobhdy

PhaedraMcSpiffy

There is a demand for abortion services everywhere that it not being met. Look at the examples of Mississippi just stated. And think of South Dakota! There must be a demand there, and yet it is illegal for there to be a supply.

Hospitals don't offer abortion services. That's not even what we were talking about, we were talking about offering contraceptives.

....My bad.

But I'm sure some do offer abortions.

[qoute]

PhaedraMcSpiffy

Just as Nethilia said, sitting back and letting this happen is not pro-choice.

Depriving somebody the right to choose what to do with their private property is anti-choice. Its that simple. You can't honestly believe that forcing somebody to comply with you is promoting choice...

They're a healthcare corporation! We have all sorts of laws that force companies to comply. They have to follow basic rules to qualify as a hospital or healthcare provider. You don't call those laws anti-choice. It's really not that extreme.

Quote:

I was not even talking about abortion. This thread is not even about abortion. Why are you bringing abortion into it? The convenience that I was referencing is forcing hospitals to dispense contraceptives.

Still, you can't just say that contraceptives are just for convenience. "No contraceptives? Too bad, no sex for you!" is not a responsible or reasonable attitude for a medical facility to take.

Quote:

PhaedraMcSpiffy

Here's my suggested revision to that analogy: A HOSPITAL whose policy is to have no maternity ward or services to help pregnant women deliver babies because they are against overpopulation or something.

Or a hospital who refused to treat attempted suicides or people with illnesses caused by drugs, alchohol, or obesity because "it's their fault." Or something.

Alot of hopistals don't have maternity wards. There are all sorts of speciality hospitals. There are trauma centers, children's hospitals, geriatric hostpials and specialized surgical hospitals.

Hell, they even have hospitals that ONLY have maternity wards.

If it's a SPECIALIZED hospital, that's fine. I'm not going to expect a podiatrist to give me birth control. I am, however, going to expect an OB/GYN or other specialist on reproductive/sexual health to give me birth control or AT LEAST accurate information on how I may get birth control elsewhere.

Healthcare Facilities do have choices as to what they will and won't offer. But it's not acceptable for them to deny people treatment for non-medical reasons.

Cutting off access to contraception is just going to make matters worse. Don't you understand that? To be in control of one's reproduction is a vital part of human health and human rights.  

[[Ernie]]

SterileNeedles

PhaedraMcSpiffy

Just as Nethilia said, sitting back and letting this happen is not pro-choice.

So what are you doing to help fix this then? Argue about it on the Internet? In fact I am curious, I see a lot of people complain about this stuff on here, what have you all done to try and help fix these problems that you all have such an issue with?

Funny, isn't it, how many of us who are "complaining" here are minors, and therefore are rather limited in what we can do offline? I mean, we have to go to school for 6+ hours a day, five days a week, not to mention extracurricular activities and homework. Also, many of us can't drive and/or lack a good public transportation system.

You cannot expect everyone who rants about problems in a guild designed to do just that to be able to do something great IRL. There are other ways of getting a message across other than protesting.  

[Tragic Christmas]

nobhdy

Nethilia

You made the assumption, you own up to the assumption when you get called on it instead of backpedaling.

She is owning up to it. Since when is offering a rational explination for an opinion "backpedaling?" Did you read the last sentance of her most recent post? It expresses her initial concern AGAIN. She is owning up to it, and expressing where she is coming from at that.

SterileNeedles

Well sorry. From the way you all complain about the Christians "OMG oh noes they're taking over!!!!!111one!1" "Aaahhh! The lifers won't let clinics be built" "They won't give me my contraception wahh!" You all make it sound like choicers are doing nothing to fix these problems. I mean honestly, if there are women being denied the medical care they need/want in certain areas why aren't choicers who are so concerned about it out there protesting?

But if you are doing things and complaining at the same time, then go you. I just hate it when people complain and don't do anything about it. But I suppose that is a personal pet peeve of mine, I probably shouldn't have brought it up. So I'm sorry, I apologize for making suggestions to help fix these problems. You are entitled to whine and be prejudice against Christians, so please continue.

I fail to see how aimlessly generalizing pro-choicers as a whole and waving around a persecution complex is somehow "owning up" to anything. If publically protesting against a crowd already known for violent and hostile behavior is the only thing she can come up with to counter a national problem, then she can kindly redeposit her "suggestions" back to where she pulled them from. Plenty of pro-choicers have educated people through spreading information and debating, which negates the notion that the internet is wholly useless for the pro-choice cause.

Quote:

No need to so adamantly defend yourself, friend. You personally weren't even under attack in the first place.

Seeing how "ALL" was used quite frequently in the post in question, I'd say she was very well under attack.

Quote:

Please try to understand the issue. Alot of hospitals don't have birth control avaliable. Why? It isn't something hospitals traditionally do. Hospitals offer HEALTH CARE to people who have AILMENTS. Do you guys not know what a hospital is?

Do you know what an ailment is? Believe it or not, there are instances where birth control pills and emergency contraceptives are needed to counter the impact of abnormal periods, broken condoms, or a rape. Hospitals are supposed to provide health care in all aspects, not just when a crazy runs you off the road or shoots you.

Quote:

Now if you go to a OBGYN/Planned Parenthood/Pediatrition/General Practitioner you can get birth control/contraceptives. I did some research, and our local hospital here doesn't vend birth control. Know why? Because it is not the traditional role of hospitals.

Now please, stop bickering.

(for the record, our local hospital is run by a non-for-profit private owner, and not any church)

What kind of hospital "vends" medication, but not birth control? Doctors don't dispense medication by themselves, not even OB/GYNs or general practitioners. It's called getting a prescription, something that's nearly impossible if there are no specialized women's health clinics around within a reasonable distance. If a Catholic hospital is the only source of health care in the area, they should be expected to provide a wide range of services, including prescribing birth control and stocking it if they have a built-in pharmacy. If they can't own up to their duties as pharmacists and doctors, they should not be called such, and the hospital in which they work should not be called a ******** hospital. The traditional role of a hospital to is to provide health care, not judge women based on arbitrary criteria and pathetic "I'm not going to do my job because I'm obeying my god" excuses.  

[nobhdy]

Tragic Christmas

nobhdy

Nethilia

You made the assumption, you own up to the assumption when you get called on it instead of backpedaling.

She is owning up to it. Since when is offering a rational explination for an opinion "backpedaling?" Did you read the last sentance of her most recent post? It expresses her initial concern AGAIN. She is owning up to it, and expressing where she is coming from at that.

SterileNeedles

Well sorry. From the way you all complain about the Christians "OMG oh noes they're taking over!!!!!111one!1" "Aaahhh! The lifers won't let clinics be built" "They won't give me my contraception wahh!" You all make it sound like choicers are doing nothing to fix these problems. I mean honestly, if there are women being denied the medical care they need/want in certain areas why aren't choicers who are so concerned about it out there protesting?

But if you are doing things and complaining at the same time, then go you. I just hate it when people complain and don't do anything about it. But I suppose that is a personal pet peeve of mine, I probably shouldn't have brought it up. So I'm sorry, I apologize for making suggestions to help fix these problems. You are entitled to whine and be prejudice against Christians, so please continue.

I fail to see how aimlessly generalizing pro-choicers as a whole and waving around a persecution complex is somehow "owning up" to anything. If publically protesting against a crowd already known for violent and hostile behavior is the only thing she can come up with to counter a national problem, then she can kindly redeposit her "suggestions" back to where she pulled them from. Plenty of pro-choicers have educated people through spreading information and debating, which negates the notion that the internet is wholly useless for the pro-choice cause.

I really just wanted to end this like a calm person. I don't know why you all are so inflamed. Could you all do me a favor and re-read her posts? She wants to help the cause, and to help preserve our rights to bodily integrity. She saw a problem within the community, and offered a solution. If you didn't think it was directly targeted toward you, then you probably think it was a rational idea. Now I'm going to leave this thread. I've said more than my two cents, and I keep being responded with by nonsensical rants.

Please. Owners of property can do whatever they want with that property so long as it doesn't hurt anybody else. Discussion over.  

[Tragic Christmas]

nobhdy

I really just wanted to end this like a calm person. I don't know why you all are so inflamed. Could you all do me a favor and re-read her posts? She wants to help the cause, and to help preserve our rights to bodily integrity. She saw a problem within the community, and offered a solution. If you didn't think it was directly targeted toward you, then you probably think it was a rational idea. Now I'm going to leave this thread. I've said more than my two cents, and I keep being responded with by nonsensical rants.

She just generalized an entire group of people as whining brats who do nothing by arguing on the internet, and you're asking me the cause of a heated debate? She assumed there was a problem with the community based on non-existent data. I don't see "just go somewhere else" as furthering the preservation of bodily integrity, and the same goes for blatant hinderances to women's health care based on religious bias.

I've said plenty, and it goes to show the validity of one's claims if they can't be assed to back them up.

Quote:

Please. Owners of property can do whatever they want with that property so long as it doesn't hurt anybody else. Discussion over.

Yes, proclaiming to be a doctor or a pharmacist yet refusing to serve people according to personal prejudices NEVER hurt people. Don't put yourself in a position of authority to perform services for the public if you think you're too good for certain members. Religion is no ******** excuse for incompetence.  

[nobhdy]

Tragic Christmas

Yes, proclaiming to be a doctor or a pharmacist yet refusing to serve people according to personal prejudices NEVER hurt people. Don't put yourself in a position of authority to perform services for the public if you think you're too good for certain members. Religion is no ******** excuse for incompetence.

You win. You know better than everyone else in the world. Why don't you just be the supreme dictator and tell every business what to do based on what you think they should do and while we're at it, why don't you tell everybody what they should do with their person? How can you be pro-choice when it comes to one's person, but not when it comes to their property?

That is called a reductio ad absurdium. Something we learned in logic class(yes, I am studying constituional law...)  

[SterileNeedles]

Alright I was wrong. I will say what you want to hear from me if it just stifles the flames that I have caused. So I am sorry, it was wrong of me to voice my irrational thoughts. I apologize.

To answer your questions Mipsy:
1) How old are you? 18
2) Do you live with your parents? Yes
3) Are you in full time education? Yes
4) Where do you live? Scottsdale, AZ
5) Do your parents have insurance, and if so, are you included? Yes they do and yes I am.
The second two questions do not apply to me.

Yes I live with my parents, yes I get all of those medical benefits etc. (I did however pay for my own emergency contraception one time and drove myself all the way out to the other side of town so that my parents wouldn't find out about it.) But that was just the one time.

So again, I apologize for making rash generalizations against everyone. Perhaps I just get too upset when I feel like everyone around me has complete religious intolerance and cannot stand Christians (which is what I am.) or even respect the fact that a majority of Christians believe that abortion is murder and expect them to do something that they find to be completely immoral.

For the sake of calming everyone down I will take back everything I have said and shove it up my a**. I was in the wrong. I got upset and said things I shouldn't have.

I still however stand by the fact that a privately owned/run businesses can run their business however it is that they want to. And that is all I have left to say.