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 Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:44 pm
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 In Catholic heraldry, papal coats of arms (those of individual popes) and those of the Holy See and Vatican City State include an image of crossed keys to represent the metaphorical keys of the office of Saint Peter, the keys of heaven, or the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, that, according to Roman Catholic teaching, Jesus gave to Saint Peter, empowering him to take binding actions. In the Gospel of Matthew 16:19, Jesus says to Peter, "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
The keys of heaven appear also on the coat of arms of Vatican City State.
The keys of heaven or keys of Saint Peter are seen as a symbol of papal authority.
There are an estimated 1.2 billion Roman Catholics in the world, according to Vatican figures.
The word catholic (with lowercase c; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning "universal").
Unlike most cults we have dealt with earlier here it is hard to pin-point when the Catholic Church emerged as a religious entity. It seems that it gradually had a snowball effect of doctrinal errors over time.
The Roman Catholic Church maintains that sometime after the recorded events of the book of Acts, the Apostle Peter became the first bishop of Rome, and that the Roman bishop was accepted by the early church as the central authority among all of the churches. It teaches that God passed Peter’s apostolic authority to those who later filled his seat as bishop of Rome. This teaching that God passed on Peter’s apostolic authority to the subsequent bishops is referred to as “apostolic succession.”
The Roman Catholic Church also holds that Peter and the subsequent popes were and are infallible when addressing issues “ex cathedra,” from their position and authority as pope. It teaches that this infallibility gives the pope the ability to guide the church without error. The Roman Catholic Church claims that it can trace an unbroken line of popes back to St. Peter, citing this as evidence that it is the true church, since, according to their interpretation of Matthew 16:18, Christ built His church upon Peter.
Before I examine the issue of Peter being the alleged 'first pope,' faithful students of Scripture and church history should be encouraged to ask why would a certain "ecclesiastical party" want anyone to give an affirmative yes to the question of Peter actually being in charge of the early church? If this can be substantiated and found in Scripture, then it might give some credence to the pope of Rome and therefore justify the authority the popes have enjoyed for many centuries; even though it is extremely difficult to find early Christians even discussing the 'primacy of Peter,' let alone a so-called unbroken apostolic chain leading to today's incumbent pope.
Interestingly, Gregory the Great (590-604 AD) rejected outright the title of 'pope,' but his successor Boniface II cherished it (Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol. II, p. 660).
Pope Damasus (366-384 AD) was the first to call himself pope (Catholic Encyclopaedia, Vol. IV, p. 614).
The same encyclopaedia makes the non-biblical claim that the pope is "lord of heaven, earth, and hell" (Vol. VI, p. 48.).
While Peter was central in the early spread of the gospel (part of the meaning behind Matthew 16:18-19), the teaching of Scripture, taken in context, nowhere declares that he was in authority over the other apostles, or over the church (having primacy). See Acts 15:1-23; Galatians 2:1-14; and 1 Peter 5:1-5. Nor is it ever taught in Scripture that the bishop of Rome, or any other bishop, was to have primacy over the church. Scripture does not even explicitly record Peter even being in Rome. Rather there is only one reference in Scripture of Peter writing from “Babylon,” a name sometimes applied to Rome (1 Peter 5:13). Primarily upon this and the historical rise of the influence of the Bishop of Rome come the Roman Catholic Church’s teaching of the primacy of the bishop of Rome. However, Scripture shows that Peter’s authority was shared by the other apostles (Ephesians 2:19-20), and the “loosing and binding” authority attributed to him was likewise shared by the local churches, not just their church leaders (see Matthew 18:15-19; 1 Corinthians 5:1-13; 2 Corinthians 13:10; Titus 2:15; 3:10-11).
Also, nowhere does Scripture state that, in order to keep the church from error, the authority of the apostles was passed on to those they ordained (the idea behind apostolic succession). Apostolic succession is “read into” those verses that the Roman Catholic Church uses to support this doctrine (2 Timothy 2:2; 4:2-5; Titus 1:5; 2:1; 2:15; 1 Timothy 5:19-22). Paul does NOT call on believers in various churches to receive Titus, Timothy, and other church leaders based on their authority as bishops or their having apostolic authority, but rather based upon their being fellow laborers with him (1 Corinthians 16:10; 16:16; 2 Corinthians 8:23).
What Scripture DOES teach is that false teachings would arise even from among church leaders, and that Christians were to compare the teachings of these later church leaders with Scripture, which alone is infallible (Matthew 5:18; Psalm 19:7-8; 119:160; Proverbs 30:5; John 17:17; 2 Peter 1:19-21). The Bible does not teach that the apostles were infallible, apart from what was written by them and incorporated into Scripture. Paul, in talking to the church leaders in the large city of Ephesus, makes note of coming false teachers. To fight against their error does NOT commend them to “the apostles and those who would carry on their authority”; rather, Paul commends them to “God and to the word of His grace” (Acts 20:28-32). It is Scripture that was to be the infallible measuring stick for teaching and practice (2 Timothy 3:16-17), not apostolic successors. It is by examining the Scriptures that teachings are shown to be true or false (Acts 17:10-12).
Was Peter the first pope? The answer, according to Scripture, is a clear and emphatic “no.” Peter nowhere claims supremacy over the other apostles. Nowhere in his writings (1 and 2 Peter) did the Apostle Peter claim any special role, authority, or power over the church. Nowhere in Scripture does Peter, or any other apostle, state that their apostolic authority would be passed on to successors. Yes, the Apostle Peter had a leadership role among the disciples. Yes, Peter played a crucial role in the early spread of the gospel (Acts chapters 1-10). Yes, Peter was the “rock” that Christ predicted he would be (Matthew 16:18.). However, these truths about Peter in no way give support to the concept that Peter was the first pope, or that he was the “supreme leader” over the apostles, or that his authority would be passed on to the bishops of Rome. Peter himself points us all to the true Shepherd and Overseer of the church, the Lord Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:25). |
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Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:34 pm
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A List of Popes Recognized by the Catholic Church
1 St. Peter, died c. 64 AD
2 St. Linus, 67-76.
3 St. Anacletus (Cletus), 76-88.
4 St. Clement I, 88-97.
5 St. Evaristus, 97-105.
6 St. Alexander I, 105-115.
7 St. Sixtus I, 115-125.
8 St. Telesphoros, 125-136.
9 St. Hyginus, 136-140.
10 St. Pius I, 140-155.
11 St. Anicetus, 155-166.
12 St. Soter, 166-175. Introduced Easter as an annual liturgical feast in Rome.
13 St. Eleutherius, 175-189. Served as a deacon to Anicetus.
14 St. Victor I, 189-198. The first African pope.
15 St. Zephrynus, 199-217.
16 St. Callistus I, 217-222.
17 St. Urban I, 222-230.
18 St. Pontian, 230-235.
19 St. Anterus, 235-236.
20 St. Fabian, 236-250.
21 St. Cornelius, 251-253.
22 St. Lucius I, 253-254.
23 St. Stephen I, 254-257.
24 St. Sixtus II, 257-258.
25 St. Dionysius, 260-268.
26 St. Felix I, 269-274.
27 St. Eutychian, 274-283.
28 St. Caius, 283-296.
29 St. Marcellinus, 296-304. The first Bishop of Rome shown in sources to have had the title "Pope" used of him.
30 St. Marcellus, 308-309.
31 St. Eusebius, 309-310.
32 St. Melchiades, 311-314.
33 St. Sylvester I, 314-335.
*Construction of St. Peter's Basilica begins in 330.
*Seat of the Roman Empire was moved to Constantinople in 331.
34 St. Mark, 336.
35 St. Julius I, 337-352. He strongly defended the Council of Nicaea's teaching on the divinity of Christ.
36 Liberius, 352-366.
37 St. Damascus, 366-384.
*Barbarian invasions begin in 375 and continue to 568.
38 St. Siricius, 384-399.
39 St. Anastasius, 399-401.
40 St. Innocent I, 401-417.
41 St. Zosimus, 417-418.
42 St. Boniface I, 418-422.
43 St. Celestine I, 422-432.
44 St. Sixtus III, 432-440.
45 St. Leo I (the Great), 440-461.
46 St. Hilary, 461-468.
47 St. Simplicius, 468-483.
48 St. Felix III. 483-492.
49 St. Gelasius, 492-496. He was first pope to be called "Vicar of Christ."
50 Anastasius II, 496-498.
51 St. Symmachus, 498-515.
52 St. Hormisdas, 514-523.
53 St. John I, 523-526. He was first pope to travel to the East (Constantinople).
54 St. Felix IV, 526-530.
55 Boniface II, 530-532.
56 John II, 533-535.
57 Agapitus, 535-536. He strongly opposed the Arian heresy, which held that that Jesus Christ was not the Son of God.
58 St. Silverius, 536-537.
59 Vigilius, 537-555.
60 Pelagius I, 556-561
61 John III, 561-574.
62 Benedict I, 575-579.
63 Pelagius II, 579-590.
64 St. Gregory I (the Great), 590-604.
65 Sabinian, 604-606.
66 Boniface III, 607.
67 Boniface IV, 608-615.
68 St. Deusdedit, 615-618.
69 Boniface IV, 619-625. Known for his compassion for the poor, he distributed his entire wealth to the needy.
70 Honorius, 625-638.
71 Severinus, 640.
72 John IV, 640-642.
73 Theodore I, 642-649.
74 St. Martin I, 649-655.
75 St. Eugene I, 654-657.
76 St. Vitalian, 657-672.
77 Adeodatus II, 672-676.
78 Donus, 676-678.
79 St. Agatho, 678-681.
80 St. Leo II, 682-683.
81 St. Benedict II, 684-685.
82 John V, 685-686.
83 Conon, 686-687.
84 St. Sergius, 687-701.
85 John VI, 701-705.
86 John VII. 705-707.
87 Sisinnius, 708.
88 Constantine, 708-715.
89 St. Gregory II, 715-731.
90 St. Gregory III, 731-741.
91 St. Zachary, 741-752.
92 Stephen II, 752-757.
93 St. Paul I, 757-767.
94 Stephen III, 768-772.
95 Adrian I, 772-795.
96 St. Leo III, 795-816.
*Charlesmagne is crowned the first Holy Roman Emperor in 800.
97 Stephen IV, 816-817.
98 St. Paschal I, 817-824.
99 Eugene II, 824-827.
100 Valentine, 827.
101 Gregory IV, 827-844.
102 Sergius II, 844-847.
103 St. Leo IV, 847-855.
104 Benedict III, 855-858.
105 St. Nicholas I, 858-867.
106 Adrian II, 867-872.
107 John VIII. 872-882. The first pope to be assassinated, poison was the cause of death.
108 Marinus I, 882-884.
109 Adrian III, 884-885.
110 Stephen V, 885-891.
111 Formosus, 891-896.
112 Boniface, 896.
113 Stephen VI, 896-897.
114 Romanus, 897.
115 Theodore II, 897.
116 John IX, 898-900.
117 Benedict IV, 900-903.
118 Leo V, 903. He was overthrown after less than two months in office.
119 Sergius, 904-911. He represents one of the most corrupt periods of the papacy.
120 Anastasius, 911-913.
121 Lando, 913-914.
122 John X, 914-928. He entire pontificate was filled with political intrigue.
123 Leo VI, 928.
124 Stephen VII, 928-931.
'
125 John XI, 931-935.
126 Leo VII, 936-939.
127 Stephen VIII, 939-942.
128 Marinus II, 942-946.
129 Agapitus, 946-955.
130 John XII, 955-964.
131 Leo VIII, 963-965.
132 Benedict V, 964-966. At one point, King Otto deported Benedict and reinstated the previous pope, Leo VIII.
133 John XIII, 966-972. There is confusion about the legitimate claims to the papacy from Leo III to John XIII.
134 Benedict VI, 973-974.
135 Benedict VII, 974-983.
136 John XIV, 983-984.
137 John XV, 985-996.
138 Gregory V, 972-999.
139 Sylvester II, 999-1003.
140 John XVII, 1003.
141 John XVIII, 1004-1009.
142 Sergius IV, 1009-1012.
143 Benedict VIII, 1012-1024.
144 John XIX, 1024-1032.
145 Benedict IX, 1032-1044.
146 Sylvester III, 1045.
147 Gregory VI, 1045-1046.
148 Clement, 1046-1047.
149 Damasus, 1048.
150 St. Leo IX, 1049-1054.
151 Victor II, 1055-1057.
152 Stephen IX, 1057-1058.
153 Nicholas, 1058-1061.
154 Alexander II, 1061-1073.
155 St. Gregory VII, 1072-1085.
156 Blessed Victor III, 1086-1087.
157 Blessed Urban II, 1088-1099.
*The first university with the authority to grant degrees is established in Italy in 1088.
*The Crusades, a series of attacks by Western Christians against the Muslims to take control over Jerusalem, continues for the next 92 years.
158 Paschal II, 1099-1118.
159 Gelasius II, 1118-1119.
160 Callistus, 1119-1124.
161 Honorius II, 1124-1130.
162 Innocent II, 1130-1143. He convened the Second Lateran Council in 1139.
163 Celestine II, 1143-1144
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164 Lucius II, 1144-1145.
165 Blessed Eugene II, 1145-1153. He proclaimed the Second Crusade in 1145.
166 Anastasius, 1153-1154.
167 Adrian IV, 1154-1159.
168 Alexander III, 1159-1181. He imposed penance on King Henry II for the murder of St. Thomas of Becket (1172).
169 Lucius III, 1181-1185.
170 Urban III, 1185-1187.
171 Gregory VIII, 1187.
172 Clement III, 1187-1191. He was preoccupied with plans for launching the Third Crusade.
173 Celestine III, 1191-1198.
174 Innocent III, 1198-1216. He was the highpoint of the medieval papacy and exercised considerable political and spiritual power.
*In 1215, King John issues the Magna Carta.
175 Honorius III, 1216-1227.
176 Gregory IX, 1227-1241. He canonized Francis of Assissi in 1226, Anthony of Padua in 1232, and Dominic in 1234.
177 Celestine IV, 1241.
178 Innocent IV, 1243-1254. He was first pope to approve the use of torture in the Inquisition to obtain evidence of heresy.
179 Alexander IV, 1254-1261.
180 Urban IV, 1261-1264.
*The highpoint of Gothic architecture, the massive Chartres Cathedral, is consecrated in 1260.
181 Clement IV, 1265-1268.
182 Blessed Gregory X, 1272-1276.
183 Blessed Innocent V, 1276. He was the first Dominican pope, the papal custom of wearing a white cassock probably originated with this pope.
184 Adrian V, 1276.
185 John XXI, 1276-1277.
186 Nicholas, 1277-1280. He was the first pope to make the Vatican Palace his residence.
187 Martin IV, 1281-1285.
188 Honorius IV, 1285-1287.
189 Nicholas IV, 1288-1292.
*The Crusades formally end in 1291.
190 St. Celestine V, 1294.
191 Boniface VIII, 1294-1303.
192 Blessed Benedict XI, 1303-1304.
193 Clement V, 1305-1314.
194 John XXII, 1316-1334.
195 Benedict XII, 1335-1342.
196 Clement VI, 1342-1352. He advanced the practice of indulgences, the abuse of which would contribute to the Protestant Reformation 200 years later.
*The bubonic plague kills one-third of Europe's population between 1348 and 1350.
197 Innocent VI, 1352-1362.
198 Blessed Urban V, 1362-1370.
199 Gregory XI, 1371-1378.
200 Urban VI, 1378-1389. He was the last non-cardinal to be elected pope. The years 1378-1417 are known as "the Great Western Schism," a period of crisis when rival popes claimed papal authority.
201 Boniface IX, 1389-1404.
202 Innocent VII, 1404-1406.
203 Gregory XII, 1406-1415.
204 Martin V, 1417-1431. His election to the papacy marked the end of the Great Western Schism.
205 Eugene IV, 1431-1447.
206 Nicholas V, 1447-1455.
207 Callistus III, 1455-1458.
*The Gutenberg Bible is printed.
208 Pius II, 1458-1464.
209 Paul II, 1464-1471. He reneged on promise to reform the Church.
210 Sixtus IV, 1471-1484.
211 Innocent VIII, 1484-1492.
212 Alexander VI, 1492-1503.
*Christopher Columbus lands in America.
213 Pius III, 1503.
214 Julius II, 1503-1513. He commissioned plans for the new St. Peter's Basilica.
215 Leo X, 1513-1521. The Protestant Reformation began during Leo's pontificate.
216 Adrian VI, 1522-1523. He was the first pope of the Catholic Counter-Reformation.
217 Clement VII, 1523-1534.
218 Paul III, 1534-1549. He convened the Council of Trent and worked for Church renewal.
219 Julius III, 1550-1555.
220 Marcellus II, 1555.
221 Paul IV, 1555-1559.
222 Pius V, 1559-1565. He reconvened the Council of Trent, after it had been suspended for ten years.
223 St. Pius V, 1566-1572. He enforced the decrees of the Council of Trent and published the Roman Catechism.
224 Gregory XIII, 1572-1585. He adopted the Gregorian calendar, which is still in use today.
225 Sixtus V, 1585-1590.
226 Urban VII, 1590.
227 Gregory XIV, 1590-1591.
228 Innocent IX, 1591.
229 Clement VIII, 1592-1605.
230 Leo XI, 1605.
231 Paul V, 1605-1621. Known for his positive accomplishments in Church renewal, ironically, he is best remembered as the pope who censured Galileo for teaching the Earth revolves around the sun.
232 Gregory XV, 1621-1623.
233 Urban VIII, 1623-1644.
234 Innocent X, 1644-1655.
235 Alexander VII, 1655-1667. He allowed missionaries in China to use Chinese rites.
*In 1666, Newton discovers the Law of Gravity.
236 Clement IX, 1667-1669.
237 Clement X, 1670-1676.
238 Blessed Innocent XI, 1676-1689.
239 Alexander VIII, 1689-1691.
240 Innocent XII, 1691-1700.
241 Clement XI, 1700-1721.
242 Innocent XIII, 1721-1724.
243 Benedict XIII, 1724-1730.
244 Clement XII, 1730-1740.
245 Benedict XIV, 1740-1758.
246 Clement XIII, 1758-1769
247 Clement XIV, 1769-1774.
248 Pius VI, 1775-1799.
*The American Declaration of Independence is signed in 1776.
249 Pius VII, 1800-1823.
*In 1804, Napoleon declares himself emperor of France.
250 Leo XII, 1823-1829.
251 Pius VIII, 1829-1830.
252 Gregory XVI, 1831-1846.
253 Pius IX, 1846-1878. His thirty-one year pontificate is the longest in history. He called the First Vatican Council, which defined papal infallibility and supremacy.
*The American Civil War takes place between 1861-1865.
*Charles Darwin publishes his theory of evolution.
254 Leo XIII, 1878-1903.
255 St. Pius X, 1903-1914.
*In 1908, Henry Ford introduces the world's first automobile.
256 Benedict XV, 1914-1922.
257 Pius XI, 1922-1939.
258 Pius XII, 1939-1958.
*In 1957, the Soviet Union successfully launches the first satellite.
259 John XXIII, 1958-1963.
260 Paul VI, 1963-1978.
261 John Paul I, 1978.
262 John Paul II, 1978-2005. |
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Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:51 pm
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What About All The Bad Popes?
Do the good outweigh the bad? Are these things symptomatic?
What about a little leaven leavens the whole lump (Galatians 5:9)?
You can find many lists online of Popes who acted morally reprehensible. Some Popes had lovers, children, committed incest, had people assassinated, were engaged in political intrigue, sold the papacy, sold indulgences, killed cardinals, threw orgies, gave away the church finances to relatives, started Crusades, started the inquisition.
Remember this is an apostolic office that is according to the Catholic Church. Jesus gave this office to Peter. Peter after the book of Acts passed it on. Jesus promised that. the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18.). If the head of the church, Jesus official representative on earth (Vicar of Christ) was corrupt, and acted corrupt was the church not overcome, was the rock not overcome? If the church was larger than just one singular earthly institution this wouldn't be a problem.
From the Glossary at the back of the Catechism:
Vicar of Christ: A title given to St. Peter, head of the Twelve Apostles and to his successors;, the Popes; "vicar" means one who stands in for or acts for another.
"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty."- Pope Leo in an Encyclical Letter, dated June 20, 1894.The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII on page 304.
Is this not setting man up in place of God? Is this the humility we see in Peter, and in the other apostles?
Acts 10:26
But Peter made him get up. "Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself."
Revelation 19:10
At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, "Don't do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus."
Who acts for Christ on earth? Who is in Christs place?
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever
John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 16:12-15
“I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.
Through the Holy Spirit, for the sake of Jesus you receive power, not your by your own power and own strength, not so that you should glorify yourself, but that you should hold up Jesus, so everyone can see Him.
Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”
We are all on equal standing. Don't elevate yourself. Humble yourself.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
Matthew 23:12
For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.
Takes off your fancy garments, and your titles. It is not about you. It is about Christ. Keep men from prostrating in front of you, or bowing down to you.
Matthew 10:9
"Do not acquire gold, or silver, or copper for your money belts, or a bag for your journey, or even two coats, or sandals, or a staff; for the worker is worthy of his support
Matthew 4:8-10
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’
What Popes Have Said About Salvation
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
“Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Pope Pelagius II 578 – 590)
“With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Pope Innocent III 1198 – 121)
“It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Pope Pius IX 1846 – 1878.)
“Some say they are not bound by the doctrine which teaches that the Mystical Body of Christ and the Roman Catholic Church are one and the same thing. Some reduce to a meaningless formula the necessity of belonging to the true Church in order to gain eternal salvation. Others finally belittle the reasonable character of the credibility of Christian Faith. These and like ERRORS, it is clear, have crept in among certain of our sons who are deceived by imprudent zeal for souls or by false science.” (Pope Pius XII 1939-1958.) |
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Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:10 pm
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How Does The Roman Catholic Church Treat Jesus?
Jesus himself said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me” (John 14:6). In Matt. 16:13-20, Jesus asked his disciples a very important question, “Who do you say that I am?” Jesus is asking the key question of the Bible: he is asking us to correctly identify him. This is the question that inspects the very foundation of the Christian faith. If we do not now who the real Jesus is, then we can not be saved. We can not get to the true Heaven with a false Jesus. The real Jesus of the Bible is the true foundation (rock) of the Christian faith. He is the rock of salvation. Even Peter claimed that Jesus is the rock, the cornerstone that the builders rejected (Acts 4:10 & 1 Peter 2:1-6). Paul says, “For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ... ‘the rock was Christ.’”(1 Cor. 3:11 &10:4).
The Roman Catholic Church claims that Peter is the rock that the church is built on. They say that Peter is the first Pope who stands in the place of Christ. This position is known as the Vicar of Christ. This is the lineage through which the present Pope receives his authority. Today, the Pope is still the rock that the Roman Catholic Church is built on. The Roman Catholic Church declares. “...that it is altogether necessary to salvation for every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff [Pope].” (Pope Boniface VIII, 1302 AD in an ex cathedra in his Bull Unum Sanctum). Pope Pius IX said about himself, “I am the way, the truth, and the life”. By the office of the Pope, the Roman Catholic Church denies Jesus his rightful place as the foundation of the true church.
Jesus said when he broke the bread that “this is my body which is given for you, do this in remembrance of me.” After the meal, he took the cup (of wine) and said, “this cup is the new testament in my blood” (Luke 22:19 & 20). As often as we do this, we proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes again. These are symbols of his body and blood just as when he said, “I am the door.” His body was not really made of wood with hinges and a latch. In the same way, the Passover feast was symbolic of the first Passover feast in Egypt where the blood of the Lambs saved the first-born of the Jews in bondage in Egypt. The bread and wine are symbols of Jesus, our Passover Lamb.
However, the Catholic Church says that the bread is actually the real body of Jesus. After the priest blesses the bread (wafer), he raises it up before the congregation and says, “Behold, the lamb of God”. When he gives it to the members he says, “The body of Christ.” Catholicism teaches that “the Eucharist is a sacrament which really, truly, and substantially contains the body and blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ under the appearances of bread and wine. It is the great sacrament of God’s love in which Christ is eaten, the mind is filled with grace, and a pledge is given to us of future glory.” (Question & Answer Catholic Catechism #1214). “The Eucharist is necessary for salvation.” (Q&A Catechism, #1217).
True Catholics believe that when you eat the bread and drink the wine you are actually eating Jesus’ flesh and drinking his blood, even though it tastes like bread and wine. The Roman Catholic Church uses the word “transubstantiation,” which refers to the communion bread and wine turning into the actual flesh and blood of Jesus when blessed by the Catholic Father (Q&A, #1224). “Christ is present in the Eucharist not only with everything that makes him a man, but with all that makes him this human being. He is therefore present with all his physical properties, hands and feet and head and human heart. He is present with his human soul, with his thoughts, desires, and human affections.” (Q&A, #1223). The Roman Catholic Church proclaims that its members are literally eating their Jesus.
Because of this false interpretation of the scriptures, the Catholic Church is encouraging false, idol worship of these inanimate objects. The Roman Catholic Church sets up inanimate objects (the bread and wine) as objects of worship and adoration. Because they worship and adore these objects they qualify as idols.
The Jesus of the Roman Catholic Church is a dead victim (an idol) who is sacrificed on their altar and eaten by true Catholics at masses world wide. Thus, Jesus’ work of salvation was not finished on the cross, but is an ongoing work of sacrifice on their altars. The Jesus of the Bible declared his work of atonement to be completed on the cross: “It is Finished!” (John 19:30). Jesus gave his life as a sacrifice for sins, offering his body once for all (Hebrews 10:10-12). The real Jesus is no longer hanging dead on the cross but was resurrected from death to life. Because he has eternal life, he can never be sacrificed or die again (Romans 6:9-10). The real Jesus can not be eaten. Because the Roman Catholic Church is eating their Jesus, they are not following the true Jesus.
Reasons why the Apocrypha does not belong in the Bible
Catholics and Protestants disagree regarding the exact number of books that belong in the Old Testament Scriptures. The dispute between them is over seven books, part of what is known as the Apocrypha: 1 and 2 Maccabees, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Wisdom (Wisdom of Solomon), Baruch, Tobit, Judith, and additions to Daniel and Esther.1 However, there are a number of reasons why the Old Testament Apocrypha should not be part of the Canon or standard writings of Scripture.
Rejection by Jesus and the Apostles
1. There are no clear, definite New Testament quotations from the Apocrypha by Jesus or the apostles. While there may be various allusions by the New Testament to the Apocrypha, there are no authoritative statements like "thus says the Lord," "as it is written," or "the Scriptures say." There are references in the New Testament to the pseudepigrapha (literally “false writings”) (Jude 14-15) and even citations from pagan sources (Acts 17:22-34), but none of these are cited as Scripture and are rejected even by Roman Catholics. In contrast, the New Testament writers cite the Old Testament numerous times (Mt. 5; Lk. 24:27; Jn. 10:35) and use phrases such as "thus says the Lord," "as it is written," or "the Scriptures say," indicating their approval of these books as inspired by God.
2. Jesus implicitly rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture by referring to the entire accepted Jewish Canon of Scripture, “From the blood of Abel [Gen. 4:8] to the blood of Zechariah [2 Chron. 24:20], who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation (Lk. 11:51; cf. Mt. 23:35).”
Abel was the first martyr in the Old Testament from the book of Genesis while Zechariah was the last martyr in the book of Chronicles. In the Hebrew Canon, the first book was Genesis and the last book was Chronicles. They contained all of the same books as the standard 39 books accepted by Protestants today, but they were just arranged differently. For example, all of the 12 minor prophets (Hosea through Malachi) were contained in one book. This is why there are only 24 books in the Hebrew Bible today. By Jesus' referring to Abel and Zachariah, He was canvassing the entire Canon of the Hebrew Scriptures which included the same 39 books as Protestants accept today. Therefore, Jesus implicitly rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture.
Rejection by the Jewish Community
3. The "oracles of God" were given to the Jews (Rom. 3:2) and they rejected the Old Testament Apocrypha as part of this inspired revelation. Interestingly, Jesus had many disputes with the Jews, but He never disputed with them regarding the extent of the inspired revelation of God.2
4. The Dead Sea scrolls provide no commentary on the Apocrypha but do provide commentary on some of the Jewish Old Testament books. This probably indicates that the Jewish Essene community did not regard them as highly as the Jewish Old Testament books.
5. Many ancient Jews rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture. Philo never quoted the Apocrypha as Scripture. Josephus explicitly rejected the Apocrypha and listed the Hebrew Canon to be 22 books. 3 In fact, the Jewish Community acknowledged that the prophetic gifts had ceased in Israel before the Apocrypha was written.
Rejection by many in the Catholic Church
6. The Catholic Church has not always accepted the Apocrypha. The Apocrypha was not officially accepted by the Catholic Church at a universal council until 1546 at the Council of Trent. This is over a millennium and a half after the books were written, and was a counter reaction to the Protestant Reformation.4
7. Many church Fathers rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture, and many just used them for devotional purposes. For example, Jerome, the great Biblical scholar and translator of the Latin Vulgate, rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture though, supposedly under pressure, he did make a hurried translation of it. In fact, most of the church fathers in the first four centuries of the Church rejected the Apocrypha as Scripture. Along with Jerome, names include Origen, Cyril of Jerusalem, and Athanasius.
8. The Apocryphal books were placed in Bibles before the Council of Trent and after but were placed in a separate section because they were not of equal authority. The Apocrypha rightfully has some devotional purposes, but it is not inspired.
False Teachings
9. The Apocrypha contains a number of false teachings (see: Errors in the Apocrypha). (To check the following references, see http://www.newadvent.org/bible/gen001.htm )
The command to use magic (Tobit 6:5-7).
Forgiveness of sins by almsgiving (Tobit 4:11; 12:9).
Offering of money for the sins of the dead (2 Maccabees 12:43-45).
Not Prophetic
10. The Apocryphal books do not share many of the chararacteristics of the Canonical books: they are not prophetic, there is no supernatural confirmation of any of the apocryphal writers works, there is no predictive prophecy, there is no new Messianic truth revealed, they are not cited as authoritative by any prophetic book written after them, and they even acknowledge that there were no prophets in Israel at their time (cf. 1 Macc. 9:27; 14:41).
Sources
Norman Geisler and Ralph E. MacKenzie, Roman Catholics and Evangelicals: Agreements and Differences. Grand Rapids: Baker, 1995, pp. 157-75.
Norman Geisler, Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, Grand Rapids: Baker, 1999, pp. 28-36. |
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Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:11 pm
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Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:12 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:41 pm
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Posted: Thu Dec 25, 2014 6:02 pm
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Thought it only fair that Catholic apologists got a chance to answer some of the charges against the Roman Catholic church. I will comment on their comments when times permits. My comments will be in italics and colored gray.
The Whore of Babylon
In another tract, Hunting the Whore of Babylon, we looked at nine arguments given by fundamentalist Dave Hunt for his claim that the Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon from Revelation 17–18. His arguments are typical of those used by fundamentalist anti-Catholics and are easily proven wrong.
But we can go beyond a mere critique of the shallow anti-Catholic arguments like Hunt’s. There is irrefutable evidence in Revelation 17–18 (the chapters Fundamentalists love to quote againstthe Catholic Church) that proves that it is impossible for the Catholic Church to be the Whore.
A Vision in the Wilderness
When John introduces the Whore in Revelation 17, he tells us: "Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, ‘Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who is seated upon many waters, with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and with the wine of whose fornication the dwellers on earth have become drunk.’ And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of b.asphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her fornication; and on her forehead was written a name of mystery: ‘Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations.’ And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her I marveled greatly" (Rev. 17:1–6).
This passage tells us several things about the Whore: (1) She is an international power, since she "sits on many waters," representing different peoples (17:15), and she has committed fornication with "the kings of the earth," and she has inflamed "the dwellers on earth" with her fornication. (2) She is connected with the seven-headed Beast from Revelation 13:1–10. That Beast was a major pagan empire, since its symbolism combined animal elements from four other major pagan empires (compare Rev. 13:1–2 with Dan. 7:1–8.). (3) The Woman is connected with royalty, since she is dressed in the royal color purple. (4) The Woman is rich, for she is "bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup." (5) She has committed some kind of fornication, which in Scripture is often a symbol of false religion—lack of fidelity to the God who created heaven and earth. (6) She is symbolically known as Babylon. (7) She is a central cause of "abominations" in the land, abominations being a reference to practices, especially religious practices, that are offensive to God. And (8.) she persecutes Christians "the saints and . . . martyrs of Jesus."
Purple doesn't need to refer to royalty. It could also refer to position, and monetary power. An example: "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day." Luke 16:19
We see also in Revelation 18:16 that purple speaks of the corruption and corrupting influence of riches. "Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!" Revelation 18:16
(4) The Vatican is very rich. The Economist calculated that the Catholic church in America alone had a $170 billion annual operating budget. The Vatican's property empire.
(5) A harlot in the OT was often used of Israel when it apostatized (Jeremiah 3:6-9) and started worshiping other God's, and adopted the customs of the nations around them. The same can be said however of the Catholic Church. With its move towards ecumenism the Catholic Church is disregarding the Gospel. Political power, and prestige is more important than leading people to Christ. It denies the once and for all sacrifice of (Christ 1 Peter 3:18.), by continually sacrificing Him in the Eucharist. Council of Trent: "Canon I. If any one denieth, that, in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, are contained truly, really, and substantially, the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently the whole Christ; but saith that he is only therein as in a sign, or in a figure, or virtue; let him be anathema."
While the rest of her description could refer to a number of things, the symbolic designation "Babylon" narrows it down to two: pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem. It is well known that the early Church Fathers referred to pagan Rome as "Babylon"; however, there are also indications in Revelation that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. Historically, a number of commentators, both Protestant and Catholic, have adopted this interpretation.
If it was pagan Rome she would not be described as a harlot because she did not belong to the LORD to begin with. Pagan Rome was never at one point dedicated to God. What did she apostatize from? What did she fall from?
The Seven Heads
Continuing in Revelation, the angel begins to explain to John the woman’s symbolism: "This calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated; they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he comes he must remain only a little while" (Rev. 17:9–10).
The NIV reads seven hills.
"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.
So does the New living Translation, Weymouth New Testament.
Fundamentalists argue that these seven mountains must be the seven hills of ancient Rome. However the Greek word here, horos, is almost always translated "mountain" in Scripture. Mountains are often symbols of kingdoms in Scripture (cf. Ps. 68:15; Dan. 2:35; Obad. 8–21; Amos 4:1, 6:1), which might be why the seven heads also symbolize seven kings. The mountains could stand for a series of seven kings, five of whom have already fallen.
According to Strong's greek it can also be a hill.
This passage gives us a key rule of Bible interpretation which is often denied by Fundamentalists: A symbol does not have to refer to one and only one thing. Here Scripture itself tells us that the heads refer both to seven mountains and seven kings, meaning the symbol has multiple fulfillments. Thus there is not a one-to-one correspondence in the Bible between symbols and their referents.
Also, the mountains could be a reference to pagan Rome, yet the Whore could still be a reference to apostate Jerusalem. In this case, her sitting on the Beast would not indicate a geographical location but an alliance between the two powers. The Whore (Jerusalem) would be allied with the Beast (Rome) in persecuting "the saints and . . . martyrs of Jesus." (Note that the Whore also sits on many waters, which we are told are many peoples, [cf. 17:15]. The context makes it clear that here her "sitting" on something does not refer to a geographical location.)
Jerusalem is not connected with seven Hills or seven mountains. We are told that the Harlot is and has far reaching connection. Here are some maps showing the Vatican Relations and Israels relations.
This passage gives us one reason why the Catholic Church cannot be the Whore. We are told that the heads "are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come." If five of these kings had fallen in John’s day and one of them was still in existence, then the Whore must have existed in John’s day. Yet Christian Rome and Vatican City did not. However, pagan Rome did have a line of emperors, and the majority of commentators see this as the line of kings to which 17:10 refers. Five of these emperors are referred to as having already fallen, one as still reigning in John’s time, and another yet to come. Since Jerusalem had no such line of kings in the first century, this gives us evidence that the Beast (though not the Whore) is Rome.
It is true that Rome was not largely Christian back then, but there were Christians in Rome. Even though they did have to hide in catacombs. The earliest Christians tended to live around the Aventine and Trastevere areas of Rome. The word "Catacomb" actually stems from Greek meaning "near the quarries" ie being more an affirmation of their location rather than a name in itself.
The Ten Horns
The angel also interprets for John the meaning of the Beast’s ten horns: "And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast. These are of one mind and give over their power and authority to the beast; they will make war on the Lamb, and the Lamb will conquer them, for he is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those with him are called and chosen and faithful" (17:12–14).
This shows us that the Beast is allied with ten lower rulers and with their own territories. Some Fundamentalists bent on making this apply to modern times and the Catholic Church have argued that the horns refer to the European Community (EC) and a revived Roman empire with the Catholic Church at its head. The problem is that there are ten kings, but there are now manymore than ten nations in the EC.
It doesn't need to be the EC.
However, what we are told about the horns does fit one of the other candidates we have for the Whore—apostate Jerusalem. The angel tells John: "And the ten horns that you saw, they and the beast will hate the harlot; they will make her desolate and naked, and devour her flesh and burn her up with fire, for God has put it into their hearts to carry out his purpose by being of one mind and giving over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled" (17:16–17).
If the Whore is Jerusalem and the Beast is Rome (with the ten horns as vassal states), then the prophecy makes perfect sense. The alliance between the two in persecuting Christians broke down in A.D. 66–70, when Rome and its allied forces conquered Israel and then destroyed, sacked, and burned Jerusalem, just as Jesus prophesied (Luke 21:5–24).
What then about the seven Hills? Has history also been standing still since A.D 66-70? We read in Revelation 19 that the beast is defeated by the heavenly warrior (Jesus). Revelation 19:20: But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
I would classify this as a preterist view. There are several issues with Jerusalem being the harlot in A.D 70.
1. Revelation 9:15-16 prophesies a war that will kill one-third part of men… This has not yet happened in all of history. It must be future.
2. Revelation 11:1-2 says that Jerusalem will be trodden down of the Gentiles for 42 months prior to the Second Coming…This didn’t happen in 70 AD. The Romans simply destroyed Jerusalem. There was no occupation.
3. Revelation 11:3-12 describes the ministry of two witnesses that will prophesy during the 1,260 days of the great tribulation. They will then be killed and three and one-half days later rise from the dead… Nothing like this happened in 70 AD. Read Revelation 11.
4. Revelation 13 describes a time when every person on earth will be required to have a number in order to buy or sell…This has never happened in all of history.
5. Revelation 13 prophesies the coming of the False Prophet who will pull down fire from heaven in the sight of men. He will deceive the world into following the Antichrist by means of those miracles that he has the power to do… Where is the account of this in history?
6. Revelation 16:12 states that the Euphrates River will be dried up to make way for the kings of the east to invade Israel at the Battle of Armageddon… The Euphrates did not dry up in 70 AD.
The Whore’s Authority
Finally the angel tells John: "And the woman that you saw is the great city which has dominion over the kings of the earth" (17:18.). This again points to pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem. In the case of the former, the dominion would be political; in the case of the latter, it could be a number of things. It could be spiritual dominion in that Jerusalem held the religion of the true God. It could be a reference to the manipulation by certain Jews and Jewish leaders of gentiles into persecuting Christians.
It could even be political, since Jerusalem was the center of political power in Canaan and, under the authority of the Romans, it ruled a considerable amount of territory and less powerful peoples. On this thesis "the kings of the earth" would be "the kings of the land" (the Greek phrase can be translated either way). Such local rulers of the land of Canaan would naturally resent Jerusalem and wish to cooperate with the Romans in its destruction—just as history records they did. Local non-Jewish peoples were used by the Romans in the capture of Jerusalem.
Taken from:
L'Osservatore Romano
Weekly Edition in English
30 May 1968, page 4
L'Osservatore Romano is the newspaper of the Holy See.
[Link to Article]
The hub of world commerce
Continuing in chapter 18, John sees the destruction of the Whore, and a number of facts are revealed which also show that she cannot be the Catholic Church. For one, she is depicted as a major center of international trade and commerce. When it is destroyed in chapter 18, we read that "the merchants of the earth [or land] weep and mourn for her, since no one buys their cargo any more" (18:11) and "all shipmasters and seafaring men, sailors and all whose trade is on the sea . . . wept and mourned, crying out, ‘Alas, alas, for the great city, where all who had ships at sea grew rich by her wealth!’" (18:17–19).
Pagan Rome was indeed the hub of world commerce in its day, supported by its maritime trading empire around the Mediterranean, but Christian Rome is not the hub of world commerce. After the Reformation, the economic center of power was located in Germany, Holland, England, and more recently, in the United States and Japan.
Persecuting apostles and prophets
When the Whore falls we read, "‘Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you’. . . . In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth" (18:20, 24). This shows that the Whore persecuted not just Christians, but apostles and prophets. Apostles existed only in the first century, since one of the requirements for being an apostle was seeing the risen Christ (1 Cor. 9:1). Prophets existed as a group only in the Old Testament and in the first century (Acts 11:27–28, 13:1, 15:32, 21:10).
Since the Whore persecuted apostles and prophets, the Whore must have existed in the first century. This totally demolishes the claim that Christian Rome or Vatican City is the Whore. Rome was not a Christian city at that time, and Vatican City did not even exist, so neither of them could be the Whore. Furthermore, Fundamentalists continually (though wrongly) claim that Catholicism itself did not exist in the first century, meaning that based on their very own argument Catholicism could not be the Whore!
Fundamentalists are fond of conjecturing that in the last days there will be a "revived Roman empire," such as the one that persecuted Christians in the first century. Yet they never draw the inference that this empire would be headed by a revived pagan Rome, with the bishop of Rome leading the Christian underground, just as he did in the first century.
Still, Revelation 18:20 and 18:24 prove that the Whore had to be a creature of the first century, which, in the Fundamentalist view, the Catholic Church was not. Thus, on their own view, their identification of the Catholic Church with the Whore is completely impossible! Only ancient, pagan Rome or apostate Jerusalem could possibly be the Whore.
If Not the Whore, the Bride
The fact that the Catholic Church is singled out by Fundamentalists as the Whore reveals that they intuit the fact it has an important role in God’s plan. No other church gets accused of being the Whore—only the Catholic Church. And it is understandable why: The Catholic Church is the largest Christian body, larger than all other Christian bodies put together, suggesting a prominent place in God’s plan. Fundamentalists assume, without objectively looking at the evidence, that the Catholic Church cannot be the Bride of Christ, so it must be the Whore of Babylon.
Yet the evidence for its true role is plain. The First Vatican Council taught that "the Church itself . . . because of its marvelous propagation, its exceptional holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in all good works; because of its Catholic unity and invincible stability, is a very great and perpetual motive of credibility and an incontestable witness of its own divine mission" (On the Catholic Faith 3).
So why is the Bride maligned as the Whore? Jesus himself answered the question: "If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household" (Matt. 10:25). "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world . . . the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you" (John 15:18–20).
NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors.
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004
IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004
Source: Catholic answers
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Posted: Wed Feb 24, 2016 8:55 am
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Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 6:04 am
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kattneko Okay, I'm going to start addressing this right here. First, Our priests prostrate themselves before the ALTAR, not the pope. The Pope has even done this. These men are going through an Ordination. They are humbling themselves before the Altar (Prophetic act as humbling oneself for before God). The Pope has prostrated himself before the altar many times. Second, look closely. The Pope isn't kissing Mary. He's kissing the hand of Jesus. This is how we show love and respect. He is lowering himself to kiss the hand of the representation of his King. Third, Yes, he's kissing a statue of Mary. She's important. The Mother of Christ is deserving of respect, yes? She is the mother of God. She is an example to us. What is wrong with respecting her? I will probably address the rest of this later but now I must get ready for work.
Hello and thank you for your input! It was very brave of you to post this here. I think you did the right thing if you feel this is misrepresenting the Roman Catholic church. I could of course be mistaken like everyone else so I welcome different angles.
Now on the matter of prostration. Why should we prostrate ourselves to an alter? Is this Biblical? Is this kind of physical prostration something we should do in order to be ordained? How is it prophetic?
Is that statue Jesus? Is it even a fair representation of Jesus? I have a problem even with pictures of Jesus in Protestant churches, because they are not accurate and they are attempting to represent something that they can't fully or remotely represent; God. I believe they become an idolatrous thing, because of verses such as;
Deuteronomy 4:16
so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman,
Deuteronomy 5:8
"You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.
Historically the Israelite avoided making images of Yahweh for this reason. If we kiss a statue that we have made to represent Him, we are not being obedient or showing Him respect.
She is more that just an object of respect in the Roman Catholic Church. She is a mediator between God and man. The Bible states that there is only one mediator between God and man. If something attempts to take His place as a mediator what is it?
Examples of prayers;
Hail Mary
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
Mary, Help of Those in Need
Holy Mary,
help those in need,
give strength to the weak,
comfort the sorrowful,
pray for God's people,
assist the clergy,
intercede for religious.
Mary all who seek your help
experience your unfailing protection.
Amen.
If Jesus is the only mediator between God and man then it is not possible for her to grant these prayers. She is not in the relationship that her son has with the Father, regardless of giving birth to Jesus because she doesn't share in His nature.
I believe the Roman Catholic Church is painting her bigger than she is to the point where it poses a danger to people's souls. An example from the Catechism of the Catholic Church; "The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven"
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Quotable Conversationalist
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Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:03 am
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Glory to Jesus Christ.
It's interesting that you can claim the first Church as some kind of cult or heresy. The Church (not just the Catholic Church, but the entire Church as a body) began during the ministry of Christ.
Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 16
13Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” 20Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ.
This Church stood united, barring several heresies, for a thousand years after which there was a division which is still viewed as a scandal and a wound to be healed by everyone involved. So I'm a bit confused. Are you arguing that Jesus did *not* build His Church on St. Peter?
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Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 7:53 am
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Quotable Conversationalist
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Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 9:20 am
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Garland-Green kattneko Okay, I'm going to start addressing this right here. First, Our priests prostrate themselves before the ALTAR, not the pope. The Pope has even done this. These men are going through an Ordination. They are humbling themselves before the Altar (Prophetic act as humbling oneself for before God). The Pope has prostrated himself before the altar many times. Second, look closely. The Pope isn't kissing Mary. He's kissing the hand of Jesus. This is how we show love and respect. He is lowering himself to kiss the hand of the representation of his King. Third, Yes, he's kissing a statue of Mary. She's important. The Mother of Christ is deserving of respect, yes? She is the mother of God. She is an example to us. What is wrong with respecting her? I will probably address the rest of this later but now I must get ready for work. Hello and thank you for your input! It was very brave of you to post this here. I think you did the right thing if you feel this is misrepresenting the Roman Catholic church. I could of course be mistaken like everyone else so I welcome different angles. Now on the matter of prostration. Why should we prostrate ourselves to an alter? Is this Biblical? Is this kind of physical prostration something we should do in order to be ordained? How is it prophetic? Is that statue Jesus? Is it even a fair representation of Jesus? I have a problem even with pictures of Jesus in Protestant churches, because they are not accurate and they are attempting to represent something that they can't fully or remotely represent; God. I believe they become an idolatrous thing, because of verses such as; Deuteronomy 4:16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, Deuteronomy 5:8 "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. Historically the Israelite avoided making images of Yahweh for this reason. If we kiss a statue that we have made to represent Him, we are not being obedient or showing Him respect. She is more that just an object of respect in the Roman Catholic Church. She is a mediator between God and man. The Bible states that there is only one mediator between God and man. If something attempts to take His place as a mediator what is it? Examples of prayers; Hail Mary Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed are thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen. Mary, Help of Those in Need Holy Mary, help those in need, give strength to the weak, comfort the sorrowful, pray for God's people, assist the clergy, intercede for religious. Mary all who seek your help experience your unfailing protection. Amen. If Jesus is the only mediator between God and man then it is not possible for her to grant these prayers. She is not in the relationship that her son has with the Father, regardless of giving birth to Jesus because she doesn't share in His nature. I believe the Roman Catholic Church is painting her bigger than she is to the point where it poses a danger to people's souls. An example from the Catechism of the Catholic Church; "The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven" Source
Actually, yes. Our traditions go back to the ancient Jews, who prostrated themselves before the altar. It is not something that they do in order to *be* ordained, it is a part of an ancient ceremony. How is it wrong to humble oneself?
They statue is of Mary holding the infant Jesus. That's why the hand is so tiny, There are instances of Mary showing up all over the world. She usually shows up looking like the people there do. There are instances, if I recall corectly of Jesus showing up as well. Do you remember in the Bible when the (dead) rich man asks (dead) Lazarus to visit his still living brothers and warn them of the evils of their ways? This actually is Biblical evidence that it is possible. Moses and Abraham met Jesus on the mount. There is nothing unbiblical about the dead appearing. Because Mary tends to appear and er looks change a bit depending on where she appeared, we portray her how she was seen then. Many artists therefore portray Jesus that way too. For the Artist, it is making someone so very Divine, a bit more approachable. We do not worship the statues though. These are representations. Idols are physical things themselves that are worshiped. For us, it directs our attention. You ever pray with a Bible in your hand or know someone who has because it helps to focus? Same basic thing.
Marian prayers- Not all of us say them. Actually in the Eastern Church we have the Jesus prayer instead. "Hail Mary! Full of Grace. The LORD is with thee. Blessed art thou among women" is actually pulled directly from scripture. Jesus is the fruit of her womb. Jesus is God, three in one, trinity. Mary is His mother. Tradition in the Church says she was assumed into Heaven. I was widely accepted and not actually questioned until the 16th century I believe, which is why it wasn't written. Common knowledge. When Jesus gave Mary to John as his mother, He gave her to the world, making her a surrogate mother for all of us. Do you ask your mother for prayer? I do. Because God is outside of space and time, we assume that Heaven is too and therefore ask those already there to pray for us as well. We do not worship them. Let me repeat. WE DO NOT WORSHIP THEM. We do not even worship Mary. We ask them for prayer and help, much like you ask here, in the prayer request forum. |
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Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:10 pm
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brother_edward Glory to Jesus Christ. It's interesting that you can claim the first Church as some kind of cult or heresy. The Church (not just the Catholic Church, but the entire Church as a body) began during the ministry of Christ. Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 16 13Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?” 14And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” 16Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven. 18And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” 20Then he strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ. This Church stood united, barring several heresies, for a thousand years after which there was a division which is still viewed as a scandal and a wound to be healed by everyone involved. So I'm a bit confused. Are you arguing that Jesus did *not* build His Church on St. Peter?
Yes. I am arguing that.
First of all, when we look at the Greek of Matthew 16:18, we see something that is not obvious in the English. " . . . you are Peter (πέτρος, petros) and upon this rock (πέτρα, petra) I will build My church . . . " In Greek, nouns have gender. It is similar to the English words actor and actress. The first is masculine, and the second is feminine. Likewise, the Greek word, "petros," is masculine, petra" is feminine. Peter, the man, is appropriately referred to as Petros. But Jesus said that the rock He would build His church on was not the masculine "petros" but the feminine "petra." Let me illustrate by using the words "actor" and "actress:" "You are the actor, and with this actress, I will make my movie." Do see that the gender influences how a sentence is understood? Jesus was not saying that the church will be built upon Peter but upon something else. What, then, does petra, the feminine noun, refer to?
The feminine "petra" occurs four times in the Greek New Testament:
Matt. 16:18, "And I also say to you that you are Peter (petros), and upon this rock (petra) I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it."
Matt. 27:60, "and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock (petra); and he rolled a large stone against the entrance of the tomb and went away."
1 Cor. 10:4, "and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock (petras) which followed them; and the rock (petra) was Christ."
1 Pet. 2:8, speaking of Jesus says that he is "A stone of stumbling and a rock (petra) of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed."
We can clearly see that in the three other uses of the Greek word petra (nominative singular, "petras" in 1 Cor. 10:4 is genitive singular), we find it referred to as a large immovable mass of rock in which a tomb is carved out (Matt. 27:60) and in reference to Christ (1 Cor. 10:4, 1 Pet. 2:8.). Note that Peter himself in the last verse referred to petra as being Jesus! If Peter uses the word as a reference to Jesus, then shouldn't we?
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Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 12:18 pm
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