I'm just going to move this to the proper sub forum. ninja
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:54 am
So Squats, essentially space dwarfs. Supposedly eaten by the Nids along with the beast men. But wouldent you think atleast some of them would have been to far away to get there before the nids ate their homeworld?
The 6th ed book does make some mention of abhumans living in small sects of some worlds, treated as third-class citizens and the like, so they likely exists in small groups, but not in a militarized capacity like before.
Posted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:26 am
I've had a rundown from Lt. Brookman, but I'm still not entirely sure why they were in the 40k universe if the ultimate goal was to get to that darker, more gothic style of play...
From what I have been told, this is pure hearsay so suck it, the creator of 40K ported over the races from fantasy, at one point going so far as mentioning that the fantasy universe was taking place on one planet in the 40K universe. As has been mentioned at least once by a number of members of this guild one of the reasons that has been given for the elimination of the Squats was that they copied many things from both the Space Marines and Guard and that the model designs were not that great. As to what happened to them in the story line I have heard the nid story, but there is the newer story that early in the Great Crusade they encountered a technologically advanced society of heavy-world abhumans who specialized in close combat. This is the reason that the Mk III "Iron Armor" was created.
Posted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:11 am
ArletaMagic
I've had a rundown from Lt. Brookman, but I'm still not entirely sure why they were in the 40k universe if the ultimate goal was to get to that darker, more gothic style of play...
They seem so out of place.
It took the setting several updates and editions to get to the grim-dark parody it is today. When 40k first started out, as Rogue Trader, it was more of a roleplaying game with a less than serious setting and background that quite literally was a lift from the then more established Warhammer Fantasy world, just with lasers and way too many pop-culture references to count.
The game became less of a roleplaying game and more of the skirmish game we know today with the release of the second edition, which saw the creation of the Codex system and a more general massive step away from the "fantasy in space" setting. All the races got their own army books which paved the way for the future setting, all except for the Squats it seems. Granted, the 2nd edition Imperial Guard codex had an entry for Squat allies and made mention of an upcoming Squat codex, but it never came.
Instead, they were written out of existence!
There are many theories as to why the Squats got canned, though the most recurring story told by former studio members such as Andy Chambers, Gav Thorpe and Rick Priestly was because the Squats were more of a joke race and nobody really knew what to do with them to make them less "Dwarves in spaaaaaaaace" and more an original entity of their own.
Here's the relevant quote, because I care about sources! wink
Quote:
I know I shouldn't get drawn on this... but... can't... resist
Seriously, a couple of points just so you can have an informed debate based on the real reasons that Squats are no longer available. Be warned, it is going to be hard reading for people that like the Squat background.
First of all, Squats were *not* dropped because they were not selling well. There were then, and are now, plenty of other figure ranges that sell in the sort of % quantities that the Squats pulled down, especially when you look across all of the ranges produced by GW rather than just those for 40K.
No, the reason that the Squats were dropped was because the creatives in the Studio (people like me, Rick, Andy C, Gav etc) felt that we had failed to do the Dwarf 'archetype' justice in its 40K incarnation. From the name of the race (Squats - what *were* we thinking?!?!) through to the short bikers motif, we had managed to turn what was a proud and noble race in Warhammer and the other literary forms where the archetype exists, into a joke race in 40K. We only fully realized what we had done when we were working on the 2nd edition of 40K. Try as we might, we just couldn't work up much enthusiasm for the Squats. The mistake we made then (deeply regretted since) was to leave them in the background and the 'get you by' army list book that appeared. With hindsight, we should have dropped the Squats back then, and saved ourselves a lot of grief later on.
Anyway, the Squats made it into 2nd edition, and since we were doing army books for each of the races, we started to try and figure out what to do with them. Unfortunately we just couldn't figure out a way to update them and get them to work that we felt was good enough. The 'art' of working on an army as a designer is to find the thing that you think is cool and exciting about an army, and work it up into a strong theme. This 'muse' didn't strike any of us, and so, rather than bring out a second-rate product simply re-hashing the old background, we kept doing other army books instead, with stuff we did feel inspired by.
Now, while this was all going on for 40K, we were actually doing some rather good stuff for the Squats in Epic. On this scale there was a natural tendency to focus on the big 'hand-made' war machines the Squat artisans produced, and this created an army with a feel that was very different to the biker hordes in 40K. However, this tended to reinforce the problems we saw in the Squat background rather than alleviate them, underlining what we *should* have done with the Squats in 40K.
In the end (and it took years to really get to the roots of the problem) this led to a realisation that we were going to have to drop the Squats in their 'Squat' form from the 40K background. There was little point having a major race that we weren't willing to make an army book for, and their inclusion in the background meant that people kept asking us when we'd do a Squat Codex. Instead we decided that we'd write the Squats out of the background by saying that their Homworlds had been devoured by a Tyranid Hivefleet. This would give us the option in the future to return to making a race based on the Squat archetype for 40K. This race was given the name of Demiurg, and a certain amount of preliminary work was done to get a 'feel' for what the race would be like. At present the only hint of the Demiurg in 40K is the Demiurg spaceship for BFG. However, we do have this race 'in our back pocket' as a possible new race for 40K, or an interesting character model in Inquisitor, or whatever. So far the Demiurg have lost out to other projects, and it may be that their time never actually comes, as they will have to win through on their merits, not simply because we once made some Squat models in the past. At present, I have to say that it is more likely that they *don't* make the cut than do, as there is a certain prejudice these days to simply taking races from Warhammer and cross them over to 40K like we did in the early days, so it may be that the Squats/Demiurg end up remaining a footnote in the history of the 40K galaxy. Only time will tell...
I'll finish off by saying that whatever we decide to do 'officially', there is nothing stopping players with Squat armies from using them, either in Epic or 40k for that matter. There is no GW 'rule' against using old Citadel Miniatures, as long as you use them with existing army lists and in a way that won't cause confusion for other players. I recommend taking a positive stand by saying "Have you seen these cool old models? They're called the Squats and GW used to make them back in the late eighties/early nineties. I love 'em, so I count them as Imperial Guard and use them with the current rules..." Put like this I can't imagine that anyone would stop you from using your army. Best regards,
Jervis Johnson
Head Fanatic
One of the bigger problems was, how would the Squats fit into the Imperium as a whole? They had their own beliefs, thought that the Adeptus Mechanicus was a load of bollocks and were at the best, distant allies with the Imperium, something that most certainly does not fit in with how the Imperium works today.
As to what happened to them? GW decided to remove them from the background in two ways: First, a massive Hive Fleet tendril ate most of their home worlds and those that remained were later annexed by the Imperium. In a darker moment, a few of the older Black Library novels were even edited to remove all mention of this race, I'm looking at you Inquisition Wars!
There is also the story that the word "Squat" is not to be uttered around the GW offices, for you could be fired on the spot if they caught you.
Now, that they got a mention in the 6th edition rulebook (Homo Sapiens Rotundus) does not mean that they will be returning. GW has retconned certain bits and bobs before, but undoing the fate of an entire race? Unlikely.
Sean King
From what I have been told, this is pure hearsay so suck it,
I'd rather you put it back in and zip up if that's okay with you.
So basically it was all "Blah blah blah squats are hard but we're having no trouble shitting out another book full of space marines." talk2hand
Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:55 am
Sean King
From what I have been told, this is pure hearsay so suck it, the creator of 40K ported over the races from fantasy, at one point going so far as mentioning that the fantasy universe was taking place on one planet in the 40K universe.
This is how Rogue Trader started out, not so much hearsay as truth.
Sean King
As to what happened to them in the story line I have heard the nid story,
This is official canon.
Sean King
but there is the newer story that early in the Great Crusade they encountered a technologically advanced society of heavy-world abhumans who specialized in close combat. This is the reason that the Mk III "Iron Armor" was created.
There is a webcomic based on squats and another where they make a comeback into the 40k universe. smile
The 1st one, Beardy Bastards, has Dwarfs surviving from alien-bug invasion on they ship (squats and tyranids, duh?) and travel to another planet for savety. On the second one, Wolf and Sister, has our 2 main characters suddenly appearing into a hidden forge run by the last surviving members of the squats race. (it´s unnofficial cannon is that Logan Grimnar warned the squats from a tyranid invasion coming and lead those he could rescue to a new homeworld for them to hide in.)
Beardy Bastards is currently on a small hiatus and Wolf and Sister updates occasionally.
Aaaand GW want´s to alienate they´re fanbase whyyyyyyyyy?
Posted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 5:55 pm
Sean King
but there is the newer story that early in the Great Crusade they encountered a technologically advanced society of heavy-world abhumans who specialized in close combat. This is the reason that the Mk III "Iron Armor" was created.
Source? Something concrete please. Deathwatch: Rites of Battle page 149. There have also been referances to this in a number of Forge World publications and Horus Heresy. Do not forget that the early legal department at GW sucked. The contracts they made with freelance sculpters were very vague and have come back to bit them in the posterior. This is why Warpath has its Iron Fathers that are so reminiscent of the Squats and partially why the lawsuit broughty against GW by Chapterhouse was not thrown out.
Unfortuneately boths sides actually have a few good points, unfortuneately the lawyers on both sides are morons and have no clue about the industry they are representing.
Reply
