5 Genders

[Angelus Lumen]

I saw this tv special about how different cultures deal with the issue/issues of gender roles and the roles and genders that cross. I thought the best one was the place where they believe there are five genders.

And I'll put the genders as tactfully as possible from male to female.

- Male - the manly male - this individual is definitely a male
The effeminate male - the beautiful male. The male so beautiful it's hard to tell he is a male
- The middle or in-between - Males or females that are so middle-of-the road, there's no way of telling. Men who can't grow beards, women who grow beards, men who wear lipstick, individuals with both parts or so little parts it can't be decided.
- The masculine female - She dresses like a male, acts like a male, could pass for a male if she wanted to, or would very much like to.
- Female - the effeminate female - she is definitely a woman. She acts, dresses like and wants to be a woman.

Why can't we have a scale like this? In this culture, the mid-road are often priests or a holy person who is often used to perform a ceremony that promotes fertility. Fertility of people -and- plants. So their blessing is also good for the crops.

Do any of you feel offended by these positions or ideas??  

[ForeverDreamWithinADream]

I don't find it offensive, but I do think all these labels get confusing. Personally I don't count effeminate men (not all are beautiful or hard to tell, it is more of how they express themselves) or masculine women separate genders as that is more of an expression and they might not be transgender or wish to pass as the opposite gender, maybe they just like the style or just how they express themselves.

I am more of the masculine women, many times people mistake me as a guy (more so online or when in costume) or a lot younger than what I really am. I guess I can be a bit androgynous (technically the condition I may have is considered an intersex condition. Though probably for the the people that have the classical form of CAH, I would be the non classical).

What show is this?

The middle part seems a bit odd how they described it. I am guess they are talking about intersex or androgynous people.  

[Esiris]

Angelus Lumen

Why can't we have a scale like this?

We do- it was called "G-Factor Typing".

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In this culture, the mid-road are often priests or a holy person who is often used to perform a ceremony that promotes fertility. Fertility of people -and- plants. So their blessing is also good for the crops.

Do any of you feel offended by these positions or ideas??

I think the part of this that offends me is how limiting it is- people might think that having 5 types is an improvement, but I think in the US we have so many more types and trying to constrict me to one of those 5 types would hurt just as much as trying to constrict me to my assigned sex.  

[Angelus Lumen]

Playboy Karasu Uchiha

I don't find it offensive, but I do think all these labels get confusing. Personally I don't count effeminate men (not all are beautiful or hard to tell, it is more of how they express themselves) or masculine women separate genders as that is more of an expression and they might not be transgender or wish to pass as the opposite gender, maybe they just like the style or just how they express themselves.

I am more of the masculine women, many times people mistake me as a guy (more so online or when in costume) or a lot younger than what I really am. I guess I can be a bit androgynous (technically the condition I may have is considered an intersex condition. Though probably for the the people that have the classical form of CAH, I would be the non classical).

What show is this?

The middle part seems a bit odd how they described it. I am guess they are talking about intersex or androgynous people.

What is CAH?

I'll have to check again. It was a National Geographic special on cable. I don't know if I have it saved or recorded.  

[ForeverDreamWithinADream]

Angelus Lumen

Playboy Karasu Uchiha

I don't find it offensive, but I do think all these labels get confusing. Personally I don't count effeminate men (not all are beautiful or hard to tell, it is more of how they express themselves) or masculine women separate genders as that is more of an expression and they might not be transgender or wish to pass as the opposite gender, maybe they just like the style or just how they express themselves.

I am more of the masculine women, many times people mistake me as a guy (more so online or when in costume) or a lot younger than what I really am. I guess I can be a bit androgynous (technically the condition I may have is considered an intersex condition. Though probably for the the people that have the classical form of CAH, I would be the non classical).

What show is this?

The middle part seems a bit odd how they described it. I am guess they are talking about intersex or androgynous people.

What is CAH?

I'll have to check again. It was a National Geographic special on cable. I don't know if I have it saved or recorded.

Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, where are bodies don't produce cortisone properly and produces too much androgen's (though everyone has androgen hormones, it's know more as male hormones as they produce ten times the amount than females).  

[Angelus Lumen]

Esiris

Angelus Lumen

Why can't we have a scale like this?

We do- it was called "G-Factor Typing".

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In this culture, the mid-road are often priests or a holy person who is often used to perform a ceremony that promotes fertility. Fertility of people -and- plants. So their blessing is also good for the crops.

Do any of you feel offended by these positions or ideas??

I think the part of this that offends me is how limiting it is- people might think that having 5 types is an improvement, but I think in the US we have so many more types and trying to constrict me to one of those 5 types would hurt just as much as trying to constrict me to my assigned sex.

It's not a recent change in culture. It's a very old culture and tradition not in the United States. I'll have to look again when I get home. It was a National Geographic showing, and I don't think I saved it, but they tend to recycle. I'll see if I can save it this time. It was very interesting. It went over different cultures and how they handled the gender differences. There was one in Albania where the male/female gender roles are very strict. There is only one time when a female can become an eternal virgin or something where she would forsake being a woman and become a man so that there would be a male head of the household.

They also talked about the Indian culture where the effeminate males had very much a similar position in society as drag queens. They were not accepted at all and used to perform at wedding ceremonies and large parties as a note that the family throwing the party was very rich, but how that tradition has faded and the role is just shamed and shunned. They do it anyway, and there are only two times of the year where they are recognized. One is a pageant, and the other is a religious ceremony where they marry their male/female androgynous god.

It's... not really something I'm trying to force onto you. I just thought it was a more peaceful way to deal with the gender role disparity that seems to be such a conflict in our culture.  

[Esiris]

Angelus Lumen

It's not a recent change in culture.

I didn't say it was- I said that in the US, we have that kind of scale, and I named it. I found it in a book on understanding yourself. I then said that as someone who ISN'T on that scale, I find thinking it is so cool to be limiting and insulting.

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They also talked about the Indian culture where the effeminate males had very much a similar position in society as drag queens. They were not accepted at all and used to perform at wedding ceremonies and large parties as a note that the family throwing the party was very rich, but how that tradition has faded and the role is just shamed and shunned.

OMG! That is so rude and racist of you to say! That is not what the Hijras are!
The hijras have their own community and identity that is neither male nor female and calling them drag queens is deminishing who they are! It's like calling someone who is MtF "it" instead of her. cat_confused

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It's... not really something I'm trying to force onto you. I just thought it was a more peaceful way to deal with the gender role disparity that seems to be such a conflict in our culture.

It's only "peaceful" for the people it fits- for the rest of us, it can feel really dehumanizing because it's someone saying "Hey, your gender doesn't matter as long as it fits with my view, so pick which one of these 5 things you want to be!", really, that's as bad as binary people trying to limit me to being binary, but it hurts a little more because it means that other people are being accepted but I'm still not being accepted. cat_stare  

[Shameless Smile]

I really dislike this because of how limited it is. It also doesn't account for people who feel that gender identification isn't important to them, and may go back and forth between societies roles, or people who are unsure of their gender, or do not fit into society's stereotypical genders.  

[Saint Sims]

I generally disagree with this idea because it creates a societal basis for what a man should be and for what a woman should be. It insinuates that gender is based off of how you look or act, which is complete nonsense.

It almost supports the argument that homosexuals and the sort are defined by their sexuality rather than vise verse.

All in all it's' generally unnecessary because we all have different views on gender and masculinity and femininity and to create a consensus that limits those views to a select few is simply close-minded.  

[Esiris]

Shameless Smile

I really dislike this because of how limited it is. It also doesn't account for people who feel that gender identification isn't important to them, and may go back and forth between societies roles, or people who are unsure of their gender, or do not fit into society's stereotypical genders.

It's posts like this that make me wish there were guild tip buttons.

Der Fluch des Pharao

I generally disagree with this idea because it creates a societal basis for what a man should be and for what a woman should be.

Society creates those anyway though- all genders are social constructs and for the vast majority of people the constructs work and appearances and behaviors do play a role in what gender is- so we can't ignore that.

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It almost supports the argument that homosexuals and the sort are defined by their sexuality rather than vise verse.

I'm sorry, but the way this is written didn't make sense to me because I can't understand what the "vise verse" implies.

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All in all it's' generally unnecessary because we all have different views on gender and masculinity and femininity and to create a consensus that limits those views to a select few is simply close-minded.

Playing the "close-minded" card is a bit insulting to the people who do fit in the gender binary though- it sucks to trample their identities and rights while fighting for our own so I think I would agree with you more if you didn't do that.  

[Saint Sims]

Esiris

You misunderstand.

By close-minded I mean that any definition of gender that limits how one should view themselves is universally unacceptable.

It has always been my understanding that most everyone viewed themselves as male or female regardless of the anatomical implications. Certainly so, that isn't everyone's opinion, but it's one that I hold strong to.

I feel as though the whole gender debate is similar to the sexuality debate of which I can more easily express my impression in that with sexuality all that matters is that you're "sexual", that each prefix is nothing more than unnecessary. Equally, I believe that gender is similar in that you define your own gender as you would your own sexuality so that if you see yourself male but are, for whatever reason, deemed by societies standards as otherwise that it really doesn't matter because YOU are the one who does the defining.

So, long winded response short, I feel as though any attempt at categorizing an individual into a neat little package is close-minded.

8D  

[Esiris]

Der Fluch des Pharao

Esiris

You misunderstand.

By close-minded I mean that any definition of gender that limits how one should view themselves is universally unacceptable.

But declaring that is just as universal- and doesn't that make it unacceptable?

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It has always been my understanding that most everyone viewed themselves as male or female regardless of the anatomical implications.

Nope- I'm not male or female!

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Certainly so, that isn't everyone's opinion, but it's one that I hold strong to.

But doesn't that mean you're trying to do just what you said was unacceptable?

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I feel as though the whole gender debate is similar to the sexuality debate of which I can more easily express my impression in that with sexuality all that matters is that you're "sexual", that each prefix is nothing more than unnecessary.

Wow- that's really undermining a lot of the empowerment that the LGBT community uses though- and it also ignores whole groups because some of those prefixes negate sexuality all together.

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Equally, I believe that gender is similar in that you define your own gender as you would your own sexuality so that if you see yourself male but are, for whatever reason, deemed by societies standards as otherwise that it really doesn't matter because YOU are the one who does the defining.

I think I understand what you're trying to say here- that we have the right to self-determination, and if that's what you're getting at, then I agree- but it's worded in ways that really are insulting to people who identify as binary and love their gender by trying to erase them. I think those words, like the prefix-seuxality and all the gender terms are amazing and powerful and can help people and trying to erase them or deny them hurts people. I've seen a lot of my friends who are transitioning to from their assigned sex to their gender hurt by people who say the words don't matter and they should just "deal".

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So, long winded response short, I feel as though any attempt at categorizing an individual into a neat little package is close-minded.

8D

And I know that removing people's right to use language in meaningful ways that supports who they are is just as bad- plus, I don't like people using close-minded as a way of attacking others.  

[loonaboots]

Esiris

I'd just like to point out that Der Fluch des Pharao said "It has always been my understanding that most everyone viewed themselves as male or female regardless of the anatomical implications."

Pharao wasn't saying that everyone identifies as male or female, he was saying that most people do identify as male or female.

And personally, I don't exactly like the scale. It judges gender by how they act, not what they identify as. For example, if someone who identifies as androgyne who is biologically female and likes to wear dresses, do their hair and all that would be female, not androgyne. :l

And to my understanding, apparently there's two definitions of androgyne. I'm talking about the identity where people identify as genderless, or in-between male or female*.

*= i am not saying that genderless and in between male or female are the same thing.

 

[Esiris]

Dancehall Hysteria

I'd just like to point out that Der Fluch des Pharao said "It has always been my understanding that most everyone viewed themselves as male or female regardless of the anatomical implications."

Pharao wasn't saying that everyone identifies as male or female, he was saying that most people do identify as male or female.

You make a good point, and I did miss that in the wording- but I think that kind of proves what I was saying- how the universal generalizations are part of what's wrong with this system.

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And personally, I don't exactly like the scale. It judges gender by how they act, not what they identify as. For example, if someone who identifies as androgyne who is biologically female and likes to wear dresses, do their hair and all that would be female, not androgyne. :l

Some of that is solved by talking about gender in terms of gender identity and gender express and how they're not the same thing. cat_3nodding  

[loonaboots]

Esiris

You make a good point, and I did miss that in the wording- but I think that kind of proves what I was saying- how the universal generalizations are part of what's wrong with this system.

Universal generalizations are definitely not fun. But what exactly do you mean by "this system?"

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Some of that is solved by talking about gender in terms of gender identity and gender express and how they're not the same thing. cat_3nodding

That's true.