What is God thinking about? (Questioning God)

[Tiina Brown]

First, this is intended as an attept at finding good answers, through discussion.

Even though the topic at least seem to assume that the One God exist, and is the foremost of all gods, Atheists and non-abramic Pagans are welcome, too.

Why make a topic like this, if i myself is religous?
Too many think that religion includes not questioning the authorities in each religion, and i want to prove them wrong, by actually questioning god self.

An example, is God truly omnipotent?
Well, if God is, then God is as cruel as religous ones often claim the "Devil" to be.
Free will? ... Oh, really? But that would also imply that God isn't truly omnipotent, if free will do exist.
God choose to not excercise the full omnipotent power?
Ok, but that still means that God limits the omnipotence, and therefor is not omnipotent, but by choice.

That is just one possible question that may be discussed.

The situations that was included when i thought of this questioning, is these:
Floods has run over entire churches, a lot of people that even pray to God daily, and there has at the same time even been miracle stories about single survivors in disasters.

One common question in moral standpoints is if one would kill one to save ten, or a hundred.
God, however, rather seem to be ok with killing a hundred to save one ...
So, how is it with God's morality?
Sure, humanity is probably not much better ... but is that really a valid excuse?

Ok, Let the discussion start, and opinions come.  

[KawaiiAsHell]

Quote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Even in the old days, people questioned God, or gods in general. The whole point of it, I think, is that no one's supposed to know what gods are thinking about, because they're too awesome for us to know.

... but with all that's been going on in the world, I'd say he/she/it is getting rather tired of us.  

[Tiina Brown]

Shouza

Quote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Even in the old days, people questioned God, or gods in general. The whole point of it, I think, is that no one's supposed to know what gods are thinking about, because they're too awesome for us to know.

... but with all that's been going on in the world, I'd say he/she/it is getting rather tired of us.

I like that first quote, it do get to the point but in a different way.

I think that the point of not questioning God, was cemented through a comment by Jesus, that is said to have said something like "You belive because you have seen, blessed are those who belive without having seen".
I have seen it ecco too many times in comments like "belief are more important than knowledge".
Those who say that thing, has obviously forgotten something else that Jesus is said to have said, namely "He who turns from me in the name of truth, still throws himself into my arms".
See, that other other quote from Jesus, really implies that Knowledge is far more important, or at least of equal importance, to belief.

How many has turned from God, based on what they have seen in the world?
They are a lot, indeed.

But then, the idea that humans cannot understand the Divine, or even how God Self thinks?
Even Genesis claims that one of the reasons Adam and Eve was banished, was really because they should not take another bite from the fruit of the tree of (what?) Knowledge .... and realize they were gods themselves!

There is also the case of Gamesmasters, that knows very well what it may mean to be "God" over an entire world ...

It is fully possible that God isn't getting tired of us, as i see it, the entire 20'th century has been a part of Revelations, the Apocalypse.
I just wonder when it will be over ....
And when it is over, if anything truly will be solved, then ...  

[KawaiiAsHell]

Tiina Brown

Shouza

Quote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

Even in the old days, people questioned God, or gods in general. The whole point of it, I think, is that no one's supposed to know what gods are thinking about, because they're too awesome for us to know.

... but with all that's been going on in the world, I'd say he/she/it is getting rather tired of us.

I like that first quote, it do get to the point but in a different way.

I think that the point of not questioning God, was cemented through a comment by Jesus, that is said to have said something like "You belive because you have seen, blessed are those who belive without having seen".
I have seen it ecco too many times in comments like "belief are more important than knowledge".
Those who say that thing, has obviously forgotten something else that Jesus is said to have said, namely "He who turns from me in the name of truth, still throws himself into my arms".
See, that other other quote from Jesus, really implies that Knowledge is far more important, or at least of equal importance, to belief.

How many has turned from God, based on what they have seen in the world?
They are a lot, indeed.

But then, the idea that humans cannot understand the Divine, or even how God Self thinks?
Even Genesis claims that one of the reasons Adam and Eve was banished, was really because they should not take another bite from the fruit of the tree of (what?) Knowledge .... and realize they were gods themselves!

There is also the case of Gamesmasters, that knows very well what it may mean to be "God" over an entire world ...

It is fully possible that God isn't getting tired of us, as i see it, the entire 20'th century has been a part of Revelations, the Apocalypse.
I just wonder when it will be over ....
And when it is over, if anything truly will be solved, then ...

Perhaps Constantine got it right. "God's a kid with an ant farm. He's not planning anything."

It certainly seems that way. Why not end world hunger, rather than dole out miracles every couple of years? If God is truly omnipotent, then he should be able to do it.

... and then again, there's the argument that he's simply punishing us for our wrongdoings. After all, there's a reason we call him 'Father'.

There are so many ways to go about this. But hey, if you don't irrevocably mess up your chances of going to heaven, maybe you can ask him yourself.  

[Tiina Brown]

Shouza

Perhaps Constantine got it right. "God's a kid with an ant farm. He's not planning anything."

It certainly seems that way. Why not end world hunger, rather than dole out miracles every couple of years? If God is truly omnipotent, then he should be able to do it.

... and then again, there's the argument that he's simply punishing us for our wrongdoings. After all, there's a reason we call him 'Father'.

There are so many ways to go about this. But hey, if you don't irrevocably mess up your chances of going to heaven, maybe you can ask him yourself.

That's also a possibility, that "antfarm" thing, but then, why Abraham, Jesus and Muhammed?

And punishing what wrongdoings?
It seems like so many get away with great wrongdoings, while people suffer.
And the reason? That the wrongdoers will have a chance to repent?
Perhaps the wrongdoers are those that used to be victims themselves?
But several vicimized, God allows to get punished anyway, if they do some small wrong, like steal for food!
.....
It seems like the "judaic" agreement with God was rather like "Keep to God, and get God on your side in this life(not any afterlife), but if you go away from God, God'll get miffed at you." Those outside that agreement to begin with, got neither the good nor the bad.

And to me, God has no actual gender.  

[chessiejo]

i believe the world is incomplete and God is still contending with chaos.

that is not so reassuring for those who want to believe that God is in charge of all these natural disasters, but it feels more right to me.  

[Tiina Brown]

chessiejo

i believe the world is incomplete and God is still contending with chaos.

that is not so reassuring for those who want to believe that God is in charge of all these natural disasters, but it feels more right to me.

So, you are more content with that Gid isn't truly omnipotent?
Or even worse, that what you call "chaos" is either powerful and/or entertaining enough that God needs to "contend" with it?
Not to mention the fact that God was unable to complete the world to begin with ....
Or, that God made the world incomplete to begin with, but on purpose!
What purpose might God have had to do that?  

[KawaiiAsHell]

Tiina Brown

chessiejo

i believe the world is incomplete and God is still contending with chaos.

that is not so reassuring for those who want to believe that God is in charge of all these natural disasters, but it feels more right to me.

So, you are more content with that Gid isn't truly omnipotent?
Or even worse, that what you call "chaos" is either powerful and/or entertaining enough that God needs to "contend" with it?
Not to mention the fact that God was unable to complete the world to begin with ....
Or, that God made the world incomplete to begin with, but on purpose!
What purpose might God have had to do that?

'Worse'? Let's not add those kinds of words in an opinionated chat.

This is purely speculation. It's no use asking, because we are not God, therefore we cannot know the answers.

I am in agreement with chessiejo. There is still evil in the world, and if God were truly all-powerful, he would put a stop to it. You have to wonder, why are there more marks of the devil in the world than marks of God? Now, I'm not one of those people who scream that Lady Gaga is Illuminati, but stop and ask yourself, who is more evident in society?  

[Tiina Brown]

Shouza

Tiina Brown

chessiejo

i believe the world is incomplete and God is still contending with chaos.

that is not so reassuring for those who want to believe that God is in charge of all these natural disasters, but it feels more right to me.

So, you are more content with that Gid isn't truly omnipotent?
Or even worse, that what you call "chaos" is either powerful and/or entertaining enough that God needs to "contend" with it?
Not to mention the fact that God was unable to complete the world to begin with ....
Or, that God made the world incomplete to begin with, but on purpose!
What purpose might God have had to do that?

'Worse'? Let's not add those kinds of words in an opinionated chat.

This is purely speculation. It's no use asking, because we are not God, therefore we cannot know the answers.

I am in agreement with chessiejo. There is still evil in the world, and if God were truly all-powerful, he would put a stop to it. You have to wonder, why are there more marks of the devil in the world than marks of God? Now, I'm not one of those people who scream that Lady Gaga is Illuminati, but stop and ask yourself, who is more evident in society?

And yet, you seem to do the same mistake as me, as in judging, defining, what is worse.
I don't care what Lady Gaga is, i consider her to be good.
Elvis was once allegedly "seducing the young ones" with his use of "negro music". ... or something like that.

Also your comment "why are there more marks of the devil in the world than marks of God?"
Who says there is?
To me, natural disasters may actually be exactly that: Natural.
None to blame, but it is a good idea to at least try to learn from them.

And "Marks" of God?
Where is it noted that God uses Marks?
Or do you mean traces?

And who is more evident in society?
Do you mean God or the Devil?
Or do you insinuate that it is Lady Gaga?
Or may i choose whoever i consider as "most evident" freely?
And what do you mean by "most evident", really?

Oh, and one more thing:
No use asking?
Asking is one of the main ways we learn things, so why not ask?
We cannot know the answers?
We ask, so we may find the answers.  

[KawaiiAsHell]

Tiina Brown

Shouza

Tiina Brown

chessiejo

i believe the world is incomplete and God is still contending with chaos.

that is not so reassuring for those who want to believe that God is in charge of all these natural disasters, but it feels more right to me.

So, you are more content with that Gid isn't truly omnipotent?
Or even worse, that what you call "chaos" is either powerful and/or entertaining enough that God needs to "contend" with it?
Not to mention the fact that God was unable to complete the world to begin with ....
Or, that God made the world incomplete to begin with, but on purpose!
What purpose might God have had to do that?

'Worse'? Let's not add those kinds of words in an opinionated chat.

This is purely speculation. It's no use asking, because we are not God, therefore we cannot know the answers.

I am in agreement with chessiejo. There is still evil in the world, and if God were truly all-powerful, he would put a stop to it. You have to wonder, why are there more marks of the devil in the world than marks of God? Now, I'm not one of those people who scream that Lady Gaga is Illuminati, but stop and ask yourself, who is more evident in society?

And yet, you seem to do the same mistake as me, as in judging, defining, what is worse.
I don't care what Lady Gaga is, i consider her to be good.
Elvis was once allegedly "seducing the young ones" with his use of "negro music". ... or something like that.

Also your comment "why are there more marks of the devil in the world than marks of God?"
Who says there is?
To me, natural disasters may actually be exactly that: Natural.
None to blame, but it is a good idea to at least try to learn from them.

And "Marks" of God?
Where is it noted that God uses Marks?
Or do you mean traces?

And who is more evident in society?
Do you mean God or the Devil?
Or do you insinuate that it is Lady Gaga?
Or may i choose whoever i consider as "most evident" freely?
And what do you mean by "most evident", really?

Oh, and one more thing:
No use asking?
Asking is one of the main ways we learn things, so why not ask?
We cannot know the answers?
We ask, so we may find the answers.

I'm not accusing Lady Gaga or anything. I think she's alright. When I say marks, I mean traces. I look around and all I see are people condemning others for being evil. Gays, music artists, etc. What I mean is that all this bitterness surely can't be caused by God. And if the human condition is solely to blame, then what need do we have of the Devil?

Look up the Mark of Cain. Just a little tidbit.

We can speculate. But unless someone's got God on speed dial, I don't see any definite answers in the near future. Of course, there's nothing wrong with asking.  

[Ren Tohimaru]

I believe that we are all interconnected and there are certainly unexplained things that can only be classified as miracles, but God? If we're talking the Judeo-christian-islamic deity, no.  

[Tiina Brown]

Shouza

I'm not accusing Lady Gaga or anything. I think she's alright. When I say marks, I mean traces. I look around and all I see are people condemning others for being evil. Gays, music artists, etc. What I mean is that all this bitterness surely can't be caused by God. And if the human condition is solely to blame, then what need do we have of the Devil?

Look up the Mark of Cain. Just a little tidbit.

We can speculate. But unless someone's got God on speed dial, I don't see any definite answers in the near future. Of course, there's nothing wrong with asking.

Thank you for clearifying, also thank you for doing so without throwing quotes around.

Ah, yes, i agree that there are too many condemnings to the right and left, but to me, it is easiliy God that is at fault there.
Why?
Two reasons:
Once, God is said to have given the ok to things like condemning gay men and unfinished intercourse(and by default masturbation), and several other things that is noted as harmless today.
Ok, the prophet Ezekiel is said to have said that God haven't just given good rules to his chosen people at the time, but also bad rules that have no good effect.
Even though those are the ones fading today, there are still those that goes by the letter of each book, more or less, and usually those are the ones condemning to the right and left, while at the same time saying that that is how God shows love ...
To me, God is directly responsible for those.
Second, the information concerning the return of Jesus (i think it is), that there will be brother against brother, and father against son.
That is not very peaceful, right?

As for the "Devil": To me the "Devil" either do not exist or is just a patsy, there to take the blame.
The reason why people do condemn to the left, right, and anywhere else, is because they think they see "The Devil" there.
The thing is, the Devil isn't there, usually, it is people caught up in circumstances, and nothing else.
People may get numb or desperate or other things ...

We really do not "need" the Devil, but the word, the implication "Devil" is used by some, to demonise others.
Nothing else.
... We might even wind up having to forgive the Devil self for any transgressions, just to avoid tearing ourselves apart ....
How?
Well, there is an expression called "love the sinner, hate the sin".
Problem is, it has been used so often against homosexuals and similar, where there really is no sin to hate, as i see it, so people forget what may be the true reason for it.
Like: someone steals. Instead of hating the thief, see to that that thief do not have to steal.
.... But that is just .... speculation ....
Right? No?
.....

Mark of Cain, ah, yes. I had forgotted the protection God is said to have put on Cain, as a kind of "protection through retaliation".

Yes, speculation, but among those speculations, some may be more solid, more reliable to build further speculation on.
The lack of definite answers, is often because the definite answers that has been given, has either been directly incorrect,, or perhaps even God wants them not to work, God may actually Want that people thinks for themselves, at least if they are able.

I am not entirely certain why i make this thread, but for now, still, the idea and the intent of questioning God, sounds like the best.  

[KawaiiAsHell]

Tiina Brown

Shouza

I'm not accusing Lady Gaga or anything. I think she's alright. When I say marks, I mean traces. I look around and all I see are people condemning others for being evil. Gays, music artists, etc. What I mean is that all this bitterness surely can't be caused by God. And if the human condition is solely to blame, then what need do we have of the Devil?

Look up the Mark of Cain. Just a little tidbit.

We can speculate. But unless someone's got God on speed dial, I don't see any definite answers in the near future. Of course, there's nothing wrong with asking.

Thank you for clearifying, also thank you for doing so without throwing quotes around.

Ah, yes, i agree that there are too many condemnings to the right and left, but to me, it is easiliy God that is at fault there.
Why?
Two reasons:
Once, God is said to have given the ok to things like condemning gay men and unfinished intercourse(and by default masturbation), and several other things that is noted as harmless today.
Ok, the prophet Ezekiel is said to have said that God haven't just given good rules to his chosen people at the time, but also bad rules that have no good effect.
Even though those are the ones fading today, there are still those that goes by the letter of each book, more or less, and usually those are the ones condemning to the right and left, while at the same time saying that that is how God shows love ...
To me, God is directly responsible for those.
Second, the information concerning the return of Jesus (i think it is), that there will be brother against brother, and father against son.
That is not very peaceful, right?

As for the "Devil": To me the "Devil" either do not exist or is just a patsy, there to take the blame.
The reason why people do condemn to the left, right, and anywhere else, is because they think they see "The Devil" there.
The thing is, the Devil isn't there, usually, it is people caught up in circumstances, and nothing else.
People may get numb or desperate or other things ...

We really do not "need" the Devil, but the word, the implication "Devil" is used by some, to demonise others.
Nothing else.
... We might even wind up having to forgive the Devil self for any transgressions, just to avoid tearing ourselves apart ....
How?
Well, there is an expression called "love the sinner, hate the sin".
Problem is, it has been used so often against homosexuals and similar, where there really is no sin to hate, as i see it, so people forget what may be the true reason for it.
Like: someone steals. Instead of hating the thief, see to that that thief do not have to steal.
.... But that is just .... speculation ....
Right? No?
.....

Mark of Cain, ah, yes. I had forgotted the protection God is said to have put on Cain, as a kind of "protection through retaliation".

Yes, speculation, but among those speculations, some may be more solid, more reliable to build further speculation on.
The lack of definite answers, is often because the definite answers that has been given, has either been directly incorrect,, or perhaps even God wants them not to work, God may actually Want that people thinks for themselves, at least if they are able.

I am not entirely certain why i make this thread, but for now, still, the idea and the intent of questioning God, sounds like the best.

This may be entirely off topic, but I really enjoy talking with you. It's very educational. :0

The Devil's been used as a scapegoat for far too long, don't you think? He's the Church's best friend, and he's been keeping them in business for centuries. People turned to God in masses when the fear of witches and the devil exploded throughout Europe and America. I feel like this institution is much like America nowadays-- its foundation is built upon fear.

Goodness, it sounds like even God's love is conditional. I've certainly realized this fact in recent times. At my church, they changed the words of the Eucharist from "... to be shared for one and for all so that sins may be forgiven..." to "... to be shared for one and for many..."

I'd hate to say it, but it doesn't sound like God's looking out for our best interests at all... :<  

[Tiina Brown]

Shouza

This may be entirely off topic, but I really enjoy talking with you. It's very educational. :0

The Devil's been used as a scapegoat for far too long, don't you think? He's the Church's best friend, and he's been keeping them in business for centuries. People turned to God in masses when the fear of witches and the devil exploded throughout Europe and America. I feel like this institution is much like America nowadays-- its foundation is built upon fear.

Goodness, it sounds like even God's love is conditional. I've certainly realized this fact in recent times. At my church, they changed the words of the Eucharist from "... to be shared for one and for all so that sins may be forgiven..." to "... to be shared for one and for many..."

I'd hate to say it, but it doesn't sound like God's looking out for our best interests at all... :<

Thank you, i do what i can.

The poor Devil ... and even poorer those who have been demonized through the use of "the devil"...
To use symbolical speech, God may actually have gotten so fed up by the stench of fear and burning witches, that God decided to remove rhe "embodiment idea" about the Devil.
Ok, it stopped the witch-burnings, but eventually, at least "Christians" continued to commit atrocities in the name of God.
So what then?
I think God decided to go into hiding: Behold Science and Atheism.

Yes, to me, it is fully possible that God may have created Atheism, and also made way for science, simply because the churches did not do the job they were intended to do, but instead made bad things, beliving thas's what God wanted.

I have a theory, but there is clearly no point in relying on it, because it kind of holds a contradiction concerning religousness.
I call it "hardball".
It's like getting ball after ball shot at you, until you either shape up, or give up, or perhaps both.
....
So, essentially, if that theory is correct, then God may actually do look out for our best interests .... God just has a hell of a way to do so.
The problem here, is that Religion is not a protection aganst it, neither is philosphy nor science.
And even though i may have provided an explanation, it is possible i cannot provide any answer directly, since the reason for this "hardball" might even be "think for yourself".

So, you cannot directly rely on God, but to accept this explanation kind of requires that you do, anyway.

.........
About your church, why not outright ask the preacher why it has been changed from "for all" to "for many"?

Personally, i perhaps do not talk with God, but i tend to frequently talk to God, .... and i'm nowadays careful to not take any potential answer as serious, ... they just may be, but to be certain ...
I may perhaps not be on the best of terms with God, and still, i perhaps am just doing what God wants me to.
That is what made it possible for me to make this Topic to begin with.

Still, too often, even if this "hardball" theory is correct, i too often, lately, feel that it is too much, too often, too hard, and unneccesary!
I would really like to know why.