Magic is evil?

[monckey77]

Allsixcolours

BSPBleach

i've never understood the aversion to magic......especially christians/catholics. i mean doesnt jesus perform magic? they call them miracles, gifts from god, but wouldnt that make magic miracles too? arent they the same thing?

@obscurus. i dont see the difference at all between the two.......

im just confused now........oh and hi arcane!! whatsup? looks like you're getting pretty into this little debate here

This is a guess, but perhaps they dont like magic BECAUSE jesus was able to do it. If anyone today were to use it, it would be like making jesus seem less miraculous, and put him down in a way. They all love their jesus, and don't like it when people put him down.

Jesus is starting to sound more and more emo to me...  

[broken_bleeding_angel]

There are many possibilities as to why it is considered evil.

One possibility is that anyone, man or woman can and are able to use it equally with out having to have permission from anyone to use it. And Christianity puts women in a position where they must be dominated and ruled by men, and must ask them for everything and follow them because we are evil, sinful creatures that are easily tempted to evil thanks to Eve.
Now I imagined this upset many men to see women go about this freely and not have to follow a mans order and are their own masters. And seeing as how we women are "tempted by evil" so easily, that must make Witchcraft evil. So that anyone who uses it must be evil and wicked themselves.  

[monckey77]

broken_bleeding_angel

There are many possibilities as to why it is considered evil.

One possibility is that anyone, man or woman can and are able to use it equally with out having to have permission from anyone to use it. And Christianity puts women in a position where they must be dominated and ruled by men, and must ask them for everything and follow them because we are evil, sinful creatures that are easily tempted to evil thanks to Eve.
Now I imagined this upset many men to see women go about this freely and not have to follow a mans order and are their own masters. And seeing as how we women are "tempted by evil" so easily, that must make Witchcraft evil. So that anyone who uses it must be evil and wicked themselves.

sad so that means I'm a girl? QQ  

[broken_bleeding_angel]

monckey77

broken_bleeding_angel

There are many possibilities as to why it is considered evil.

One possibility is that anyone, man or woman can and are able to use it equally with out having to have permission from anyone to use it. And Christianity puts women in a position where they must be dominated and ruled by men, and must ask them for everything and follow them because we are evil, sinful creatures that are easily tempted to evil thanks to Eve.
Now I imagined this upset many men to see women go about this freely and not have to follow a mans order and are their own masters. And seeing as how we women are "tempted by evil" so easily, that must make Witchcraft evil. So that anyone who uses it must be evil and wicked themselves.

sad so that means I'm a girl? QQ

No just evil according to old dead people from way back when.  

[monckey77]

broken_bleeding_angel

monckey77

broken_bleeding_angel

There are many possibilities as to why it is considered evil.

One possibility is that anyone, man or woman can and are able to use it equally with out having to have permission from anyone to use it. And Christianity puts women in a position where they must be dominated and ruled by men, and must ask them for everything and follow them because we are evil, sinful creatures that are easily tempted to evil thanks to Eve.
Now I imagined this upset many men to see women go about this freely and not have to follow a mans order and are their own masters. And seeing as how we women are "tempted by evil" so easily, that must make Witchcraft evil. So that anyone who uses it must be evil and wicked themselves.

sad so that means I'm a girl? QQ

No just evil according to old dead people from way back when.

oh...How mean of those old dead people, I don't even know them. sad  

[broken_bleeding_angel]

monckey77

broken_bleeding_angel

monckey77

broken_bleeding_angel

There are many possibilities as to why it is considered evil.

One possibility is that anyone, man or woman can and are able to use it equally with out having to have permission from anyone to use it. And Christianity puts women in a position where they must be dominated and ruled by men, and must ask them for everything and follow them because we are evil, sinful creatures that are easily tempted to evil thanks to Eve.
Now I imagined this upset many men to see women go about this freely and not have to follow a mans order and are their own masters. And seeing as how we women are "tempted by evil" so easily, that must make Witchcraft evil. So that anyone who uses it must be evil and wicked themselves.

sad so that means I'm a girl? QQ

No just evil according to old dead people from way back when.

oh...How mean of those old dead people, I don't even know them. sad

I know. What douchebags, eh?  

[Nalyd Rin Dei la Rune]

Obscurus

Arcane_Ninja24

broken_bleeding_angel

I'd just like to point out that Christianity isn't the only one that "frowns" upon magic.

nope, unfortunately there just the easy ones to remember...
catholics... vaticen mostly i would say hate magic more then the christian comunity... but... thats just from what i hear...

Catholics are the original Christians, just so you know.

They're really not actually. neutral  

[Obscurus]

Nalyd Rin Dei la Rune

Obscurus

Arcane_Ninja24

broken_bleeding_angel

I'd just like to point out that Christianity isn't the only one that "frowns" upon magic.

nope, unfortunately there just the easy ones to remember...
catholics... vaticen mostly i would say hate magic more then the christian comunity... but... thats just from what i hear...

Catholics are the original Christians, just so you know.

They're really not actually. neutral

Not technically, but when you start talking about Christianity as an organized religion the Catholic Church is sort of where everything starts. Before that Christians were more like a loose affiliation of cults until they got together and codified Christian Doctrine.  

[Nalyd Rin Dei la Rune]

So. . . I'm noticing, primarily, two things.

1) A large number of people seem to be associating 'Christianity' with either A. [the stereotypical medieval church controlled Christianity that in many -sad- cases involved little more than educated and/or powerful leaders taking advantage of the faiths of the uneducated and ignorant masses] or B. [the putrid stank of society who hide behind religion in an effort to support their fearful prejudices or give themselves some false deluded sense of power, etc] or a combination of the two.
Well, that second one was rather extreme so some might be thinking that's not exactly their view, but that's the basic 'vibe' I'm getting from many of the posts.

2) I have read repeatedly things along the lines of 'because they fear the unknown/what they can't control', 'they simply don't understand it' and 'for such-and-such-reason they jump to conclusions', yet I'm not sure I've read a single thing that seems to have come from a person who was really trying to think beyond their own perception and/or prejudices to understand the views of those they consider themselves to be in opposition towards or opposed by (willingly or not).

Also, for those starting to talk about magic/etc and miracles/etc and claiming they are the same thing, I would like to say something. . .
But! Before I can do that I'll need you to try a little exercise so that we can all be on the same page:

First, define 'magic' as you are currently talking about it. Not a breakdown of the discipline you study or the system you use or anything like that, nor an explanation of what magic means to you or is to you such as some have given in this discussion and ESPECIALLY no flowery or poetic speech of the ethereal quality of magic or some such. (I know most of you wouldn't, but it's undeniable that some might, so. . . I just figured I should throw that last bit out there. :/ )
Think dictionary. ^_~

Second, take a moment to try and think about how others may define magic. That may be tougher since you're not actually them, but just try to give it a little think so as to remember that your magic is not necessarily the same magic as someone else.

Thirdly and finally, define 'miracle'.

Actually, as an exercise it might be good for this whole conversation. I can't explain more until after I know at least a few people have tried, but I'd welcome everyone giving it a little brain power and time, whether they specifically want to talk about the miracle branch of the conversation or not. (If you don't than the third step isn't really necessary.) smile  

[Obscurus]

Magic: Creating change through the application of will. (Borrowing from the Great Beast on this one. It's vague but so is magic.)

Miracle: Creating change in accordance with divine will?

The only real difference I can find between magic and miracle would be the will that is being served. The nature of the results seem to be the same in that they defy the "normal" working of the universe.  

[mikeplusplus]

From my very...limited...understanding of magic and the forces behind it, it seems a bit like a computer to me.

Our universe is a giant computer, the various planes of existence are like folders, and the matter within these planes of existence are like files, written in lines of complex code.

From the point of view of religions such as Christianity, using magic is like going into the code yourself and altering it, or having an entity that has some experience with this "code" make changes to it. On the other hand, religions see prayer and other divine interventionny things like going straight to the manufacturer of the computer and asking them to fix stuff.

As I said before, I don't know much and all the stuff I wrote is primarily theoretical and stuff, but it might explain why some people are so nervous about magic: because to them it makes sense to talk to the manufacturer.  

[Obscurus]

MikePlusPlus

From my very...limited...understanding of magic and the forces behind it, it seems a bit like a computer to me.

Our universe is a giant computer, the various planes of existence are like folders, and the matter within these planes of existence are like files, written in lines of complex code.

From the point of view of religions such as Christianity, using magic is like going into the code yourself and altering it, or having an entity that has some experience with this "code" make changes to it. On the other hand, religions see prayer and other divine interventionny things like going straight to the manufacturer of the computer and asking them to fix stuff.

As I said before, I don't know much and all the stuff I wrote is primarily theoretical and stuff, but it might explain why some people are so nervous about magic: because to them it makes sense to talk to the manufacturer.

I like your analogy.  

[neko-mata-01]

hm ill try to comment a bit on various conversations. well im not going to say stuff thats already been said just to save time. but yes a lot of it is because of religions.
miracles are different in the catholic/christian religion from magic because its understood as being the will of God rather than the individual. because of that it cant be used for any evil intent i guess. also christians might view it as a person trying to have the power of god or something. strangely i don't see how it would be immoral in any way unless the person is specifically using magic for evil.
also people tend to just hate stuff just because it has been given a bad connotation, not because their faith is against it or because they actually have a good reason to do so. either that or they are just stupid, which in today's society isn't that rare.  

[Nero-gataki]

CemeteryPirate

Why do so many people fear that practicing magic is evil and worthy of eternal punishment???
and exactly what about it do they think is so evil?

Like alot of people have said they may have been afraid or they dident want their own beliefs to be jeopardized. Many reasons that are swayed to the more 'they dident understand so they were afraid....'its an reason that should not be forgiven. if it was the same way today i would be forced to hide who i am or die trying to show the world im not a bad person.. There is alot of people who practise the dark arts of magic...but if you fully understand magic...you have to know both sides not just the...'white magic' >.> and most people fear the dark arts even i did intell i was shown that the black magic...is just a different form of protecting yourself from hurt and pain...O_O that was llloooonnngggg  

[Beelzebunz]

Obscurus

Magic: Creating change through the application of will. (Borrowing from the Great Beast on this one. It's vague but so is magic.)

Miracle: Creating change in accordance with divine will?

The only real difference I can find between magic and miracle would be the will that is being served. The nature of the results seem to be the same in that they defy the "normal" working of the universe.

That's just about how I would have put it, perhaps a bit less eloquently.