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| Nihongo ga dekiru kai? |
| Dekiru! |
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56% |
[ 27 ] |
| Dekinai! |
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6% |
[ 3 ] |
| Eigo wo hanase! |
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37% |
[ 18 ] |
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| Total Votes : 48 |
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 Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:15 am
(shamelessly ripped and modified from another thread...*stares innocently at the ceiling*)
Welcome to the Ancient Japanese General Discussion! This is where we discuss everything related to the Ancient Japanese language, including, but not limited to:
-asking specific questions about Ancient Japanese vocabulary and grammar (people who can speak Japanese fluently can help answer others' questions)
-recommendations for Ancient Japnese dictionaries, websites, etc
-and everything else about the beautiful langauge of Japan!
Please note that although speaking in Ancient Japanese is allowed here, it is not mandatory. Speaking in Japanese is encouraged, however.
Let's start off with a few facts about the Japanese language:
Used to be spoken in: Japan
Total number of speakers: 0
Language Family: unknown
Regulated by: Unknown
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Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:17 am
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Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:19 am
Reference Materials
旺文社古語辞典 (Obunsha Kogo Jiten) - Ancient Japanese-Japanese dictionary, so not for the faint of heart or those lacking in fluency.
Open to adding more if people come up with them!
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Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:35 am
In your opinion, is Ancient Japanese more different from modern Japanese than Shakespearian English is from modern English? ninja
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Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:49 am
This doesn't cover grammatical endings in Japanese, but I thought I'd at least start out by explaining some of the spelling changes that have occurred since the Heian era...It might be a shade incomplete, but I'll add to it if I remember others down the line.
To start with, you know how 'e' is supposed to be written as へ when indicating a direction (e.g.学校へ行く)? That's an artifact left over from a larger change in word spellings.
は became あ
ひ became い
ふ became う
へ became え
ほ became お
These changes don't necessarily apply every time you see the characters, but generally when they're not at the start of a word, they get changed.
Examples:
声（こへ became こえ）
今日（てふ became てう, which would become きょう)
庵（いほ became いお）
思ふ（おもふ became おもう)
In the case of verbs ending in ふ, such as in 思ふ, the verb endings would also change to reflect the older ending syllable (likewise it would affect compounds)
思ひ出 became 思い出
思へ became 思え
思はず became 思わず (this change here is probably part of the reason why the subject marker is written as は and not わ)
Two other antiquated characters, which you will almost never see in modern texts since their official deletion in 1945, are ゐ(wi) and ゑ(we). When I can remember cases that use these words I'll cite specific examples, but in the meantime, here's the general rule:
ゐ became い
ゑ became え
Another spelling conversion that was made at this time affects adjectives. This one is really easy to remember, and actually explains quite a bit about why adjectives conjugate using syllables from the か column of the chart.
き became い (only in the case of adjective endings)
白き became 白い
黒き became 黒い
新しき became 新しい
I'll update more when I get more examples/changes. Hope people find it interesting!
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Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:52 am
Proudly_Jewish In your opinion, is Ancient Japanese more different from modern Japanese than Shakespearian English is from modern English? ninja Well, I just finished posting a number of the spelling changes, but in and of themselves I would say that puts the two examples you gave on par with each other. When I get to posting the verb endings though, you'll notice some major differences that I think put it in a separate class. For a comparison to English you might say it's like going from Modern English to Beowulf (an Old English epic). Overall it's a bit easier to convert Japanese to its older forms than English, however, because Japanese hasn't had all the foreign language input that English has had over the years.
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Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:56 am
*reserving a post for grammatical explanations*
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Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 11:24 am
Heyy, what about the Ryukuan languages like Okinawan and Amami, are those considered close to ancient Japanese? Sorry if it's a retarded question ^^;
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Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:57 pm
Hmmm...can't find the page anymore, but I used to have a site bookmarked that actually did side-by-side comparisons of a lot of Okinawan and modern Japanese words, which seemed pretty convincing (by themselves) that there could well be a link between the two.
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Posted: Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:24 am
Is Okinawan language different from Japanese language?Essentially, yes. Okinawan language is the only sister language to Japanese. Vise versa. But, some Japanese nationalistic linguists think Okinawan as the dialect. If it is true, French and Italian is the same language. http://www.well.com/user/nobumasa/faq.html biggrin
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Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:06 am
As someone once put it, "A language is a dialect with an army."
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Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:59 pm
For those interested in reading an ancient Japanese text, here's one that I transcribed...
百人一首 (100 Men, 1 Neck)
１
秋の田の
かりほの庵の
苫をあらみ
わが衣手は
露にぬれつつ
２
春過ぎて
夏来にけらし
白妙の
衣ほすてふ
天の香具山
３
あしひきの
山鳥の尾の
しだり尾の
ながながし夜を
ひとりかも寝む
４
田子の浦に
うち出でて見れば
白妙の
富士の高嶺に
雪は降りつつ
５
奥山に
紅葉踏みわけ
鳴く鹿の
声聞く時ぞ
秋は悲しき
６
かささぎの
渡せる橋に
置く霜の
白きを見れば
夜ぞふけにける
７
天の原
ふるさけ見れば
春日なる
三笠の山に
出でし月かも
８
わが庵は
都のたつみ
しかぞ住む
世をうぢ山と
人はいふなり
９
花の色は
移りにけりな
いたづらに
わが身世にふる
ながめせし間に
１０
これやこの
行くも帰るも
別れては
知るも知らぬも
あふ坂の関
１１
わたの原
八十島かけて
漕ぎ出でぬと
人には告げよ
あまのつり舟
１２
天つ風
雲の通ひ路
吹き閉ぢよ
をとめの姿
しばしとどめむ
１３
筑波嶺の
峰より落つる
みなの川
恋ぞつもりて
淵となりぬる
１４
陸奥の
しのびもぢずり
誰ゆゑに
乱れそめにし
我ならなくに
１５
君がため
春の野に出でて
若菜つむ
わが衣手に
雪は降りつつ
１６
立ち別れ
いなばの山の
峰に生ふる
まつとし聞かば
今帰り来む
１７
ちはやぶる
神代も聞かず
竜田川
からくれなゐに
水くくるとは
１８
住江の
岸の寄る波
よるさへや
夢の通ひ路
人目よくらむ
１９
難波潟
短き葦の
ふしの間も
逢はでこの世を
過ぐしてよとや
２０
わびぬれば
今はた同じ
難波なる
みをつくしても
逢はむとぞ思ふ
２１
今来むと
いひしばかりに
長月の
有り明けの月を
待ち出でつるかな
２２
吹くからに
秋の草木の
しをるれば
むべ山風を
あらしといふらむ
２３
月見れば
千々に物こそ
悲しけれ
わが身ひとつの
秋にはあらぬど
２４
このたびは
幣も取りあへず
手向山
紅葉の錦
神のまにまに
２５
名にし負はば
あふ坂山の
さねかづら
人に知られで
くるよしもがな
２６
小倉山
峰のもみぢ葉
心あらば
今ひとたびの
みゆき待たなむ
２７
みかの原
わきて流るる
いづみ川
いつみきとてか
恋しかるらむ
２８
山里は
冬ぞさびしさ
まさりける
人目も草も
かれぬと思へば
２９
心あてに
折らばや折らむ
初霜の
置きまどはせる
白菊の花
３０
有り明けの
つれなく見えし
別れより
暁ばかり
憂きものはなし
３１
朝ぼらけ
有り明けの月と
見るまでに
吉野の里に
降れる白雪
３２
山川に
風のかけたる
しがらみは
流れもあへぬ
紅葉なりけり
３３
ひさかたの
光のどけき春の日に
しづごころなく
花の散るらむ
３４
誰をかも
知る人にせむ
高砂の
松も昔の
友ならなくに
３５
人はいさ
心も知らず
ふるさとは
花ぞ昔の
香ににほひける
３６
夏の夜は
まだ宵ながら
明けぬるを
雲のいづこに
月宿るらむ
３７
白露に
風の吹きしく
秋の野は
つらぬきとめぬ
玉ぞ散りける
３８
忘らるる
身をば思はず
誓ひてし
人の命の
惜しくもあるかな
３９
浅茅生の
小野の篠原
忍ぶれど
あまりてなどか
人の恋しき
４０
忍ぶれど
色に出でにけり
わが恋は
物や思ふと
人の問ふまで
４１
恋すてふ
わが名はまだき
立ちにけり
人知れずこそ
思ひそめあしか
４２
契りきな
かたみに袖を
しぼりつつ
末の松山
波越さじとは
４３
逢い見ての
後の心に
くらぶれば
昔は物を
思はざりけり
４４
逢ふことの
絶えてしなくは
なかなかに
人をも身をも
恨みざらまし
４５
あはれとも
いふべき人は
思ほえで
身のいたづらに
なりぬべきかな
４６
由良の門を
渡る舟人
かぢを絶え
ゆくへも知らぬ
恋の道かな
４７
八重葎
しげれる宿の
さびしきに
人こそ見えね
秋は来にけり
４８
風をいたみ
岩うつ波の
おのれのみ
砕けて物を
思ふころかな
４９
みかきもり
衛士の焚く火の
夜は燃え
昼は消えつつ
物をこそ思へ
５０
君がため
惜しからざりし
命さへ
長くもがなと
思ひけるかな
５１
かくとだに
みやはいぶきの
さしも草
さしも知らじな
燃ゆる思ひを
５２
明けぬれば
暮るるものとは
知りながら
なほ恨めしき
朝ぼらけかな
５３
嘆きつつ
ひとり寝る夜の
明くる間は
いかに久しき
ものとかは知る
５４
忘れじの
行く末までは
かたければ
けふを限りの
命ともがな
５５
滝の音は
絶えて久しく
なりぬれど
名こそ流れて
なほ聞こえけれ
５６
あらざらむ
この世のほかの
思ひ出に
いまひとたびの
逢ふこともがな
５７
めぐり逢ひて
見しやそれとも
わかぬ間に
雲隠れにし
夜半の月かな
５８
有馬山
猪名の笹原
風吹けば
いでそよ人を
忘れやはする
５９
やすらはで
寝なましものを
小夜ふけて
かたぶくまでの
月を見しかな
６０
大江山
いくのの道の
遠ければ
まだふみもみず
天の橋立
６１
いにしへの
奈良の都
八重桜
けふ九重に
にほひぬるかな
６２
夜をこめて
鳥の空音は
はかるとも
よにあふ坂の
関はゆるさし
６３
今はただ
思ひ絶えなむ
とばかりを
人づてならで
いふよしもがな
６４
朝ぼらけ
宇治の川霧
たえだえに
あらはれわたる
瀬々の網代木
６５
恨みわび
乾さぬ袖だに
あるものな
恋に朽ちなむ
名こそ惜しけれ
６６
もろともに
あはれと思へ
山桜
花よりほかに
知る人もなし
６７
春の夜の
夢ばかりなる
手枕に
かひなく立たむ
名こそ惜しけれ
６８
心にも
あらでうき世に
ながらへば
恋しかるべき
夜半の月かな
６９
あらしく吹く
三室の山の
もみぢ葉は
竜田の川の
錦なりけり
７０
さびしさに
宿を立ち出でて
ながむれば
いづこも同じ
秋の夕暮れ
７１
夕されば
門田の稲葉
おとづれて
葦のまろやに
秋風ぞ吹く
７２
音に聞く
たかしの浜の
あだ波は
かけじゃ袖の
ぬれもこそすれ
７３
高砂の
尾の上の桜
咲きにけり
外山の霞
立たずもあらなむ
７４
憂かりける
人をはつせの
山おろしよ
はげしかれとは
祈らぬものを
７５
契りおきし
させもが露を
命にて
あはれ今年の
秋もいぬめり
７６
わたの原
漕ぎ出でて見れば
ひさかたの
雲ゐにまがふ
沖つ白波
７７
瀬を早み
岩にせかるる
滝川の
われても末に
逢わむとぞ思ふ
７８
淡路島
かよふ千鳥の
鳴く声は
幾夜ねざめぬ
須磨の関守
７９
秋風に
たなびく雲の
絶え間より
もれ出づる月の
影のさやけさ
８０
長からむ
心も知らず
黒髪の
乱れて今朝は
物をこそ思へ
８１
ほととぎす
鳴きつる方を
眺むれば
ただ有り明けの
月ぞ残れる
８２
思ひわび
さても命は
あるものを
憂きに堪へぬは
涙なりけり
８３
世の中よ
道こそなけれえ
思ひ入る
山の奥にも
鹿ぞ鳴くなる
８４
ながらへば
またこの頃や
しのばれむ
憂しと見し世ぞ
今は恋しき
８５
夜もすがら
物思ふころは
明けやらで
閨のひまさへ
つれなかりけり
８６
嘆けとて
月やは物を
思はする
かこち顔なる
わが涙かな
８７
村雨の
露もまだひね
まきの葉に
霧たちのぼる
秋の夕暮れ
８８
難波江の
葦のかりねの
ひとよゆゑ
みをつくしてや
恋ひわたるべき
８９
玉の緒よ
絶えなば絶えね
ながらへば
忍ぶることの
弱りもぞする
９０
見せばやな
雄島のあまの
袖だにも
濡れにぞ濡れし
色はかはらず
９１
きりぎりす
鳴くや霜夜の
さむしろに
衣かたしき
ひとりかも寝む
９２
わが袖は
潮干に見えぬ
沖の石の
人こそ知らぬ
乾く間もなし
９３
世の中は
常にもがもな
渚漕ぐ
あまの小舟の
つなでかなしも
９４
み吉野の
山の秋風
小夜ふけて
ふるさと寒く
衣うつなり
９５
おほけなく
うき世の民に
おほふかな
わがたつ杣に
すみぞめの袖
９６
花さそふ
嵐の庭の
雪ならで
ふりゆくものは
わが身なりけり
９７
来ぬ人を
まつほの浦の
夕なぎに
焼くや藻塩の
身もこがれつつ
９８
風そよぐ
ならの小川の
夕暮れは
みさぎぞ夏の
しるしなりける
９９
人もをし
人もうらめし
あぢきなく
世を思ふゆゑに
物思ふ身は
１００
ももしきや
古き軒端の
しのぶにも
なほあまりある
昔なりけり
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Posted: Thu Jun 08, 2006 7:42 pm
That's actually really amazing, I've always wondered about ancient Japanese. And from seeing through my studies the characters ゐ and ゑ come up every once and a great while, I actually asked my Japanese tutor what they were about one day. I think I remember her looking at me like I had two heads.
And the transformation of 今日 is a gap that I'm not skilled enough to recognize.
I envy your accomplishments. 3nodding
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Posted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 12:58 am
Paracket That's actually really amazing, I've always wondered about ancient Japanese. And from seeing through my studies the characters ゐ and ゑ come up every once and a great while, I actually asked my Japanese tutor what they were about one day. I think I remember her looking at me like I had two heads. And the transformation of 今日 is a gap that I'm not skilled enough to recognize. I envy your accomplishments. 3nodding hehehe...I've been at it for a while, and had the benefit of having a teacher explain it to me as part of my studies while I was in Japan. As to ゐ (wi) and ゑ (we), they would be replaced with い (i) and え (e) respectively following World War II, when Gen. Douglas MacArthur singlehandedly took it upon himself to simplify the Japanese language (it's also as a result of these reforms that we ended up with the 常用漢字 (jouyou kanji, the list of 1,945 kanji for use in daily life).
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Posted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 4:45 pm
Kaji01 Paracket That's actually really amazing, I've always wondered about ancient Japanese. And from seeing through my studies the characters ゐ and ゑ come up every once and a great while, I actually asked my Japanese tutor what they were about one day. I think I remember her looking at me like I had two heads. And the transformation of 今日 is a gap that I'm not skilled enough to recognize. I envy your accomplishments. 3nodding hehehe...I've been at it for a while, and had the benefit of having a teacher explain it to me as part of my studies while I was in Japan. As to ゐ (wi) and ゑ (we), they would be replaced with い (i) and え (e) respectively following World War II, when Gen. Douglas MacArthur singlehandedly took it upon himself to simplify the Japanese language (it's also as a result of these reforms that we ended up with the 常用漢字 (jouyou kanji, the list of 1,945 kanji for use in daily life). SugoPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:49 am This doesn't cover grammatical endings in Japanese, but I thought I'd at least start out by explaining some of the spelling changes that have occurred since the Heian era...It might be a shade incomplete, but I'll add to it if I remember others down the line. To start with, you know how 'e' is supposed to be written as へ when indicating a direction (e.g.学校へ行く)? That's an artifact left over from a larger change in word spellings. は became あ ひ became い ふ became う へ became え ほ became お These changes don't necessarily apply every time you see the characters, but generally when they're not at the start of a word, they get changed. Examples: 声（こへ became こえ） 今日（てふ became てう, which would become きょう) 庵（いほ became いお） 思ふ（おもふ became おもう) In the case of verbs ending in ふ, such as in 思ふ, the verb endings would also change to reflect the older ending syllable (likewise it would affect compounds) 思ひ出 became 思い出 思へ became 思え 思はず became 思わず (this change here is probably part of the reason why the subject marker is written as は and not わ) Two other antiquated characters, which you will almost never see in modern texts since their official deletion in 1945, are ゐ(wi) and ゑ(we). When I can remember cases that use these words I'll cite specific examples, but in the meantime, here's the general rule: すごゐ がや! (なごや弁)
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Reply
