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 Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:44 pm
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Posted: Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:18 pm
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Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:43 pm
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Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:24 pm
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Genesis 19:
Gen.19
[1] The two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his face to the earth,
[2] and said, "My lords, turn aside, I pray you, to your servant's house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise up early and go on your way." They said, "No; we will spend the night in the street."
[3] But he urged them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
[4] But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house;
[5] and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them."
[6] Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him,
[7] and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly.
[8] Behold, I have two daughters who have not known man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof."
[9] But they said, "Stand back!" And they said, "This fellow came to sojourn, and he would play the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them." Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door.
[10] But the men put forth their hands and brought Lot into the house to them, and shut the door.
[11] And they struck with blindness the men who were at the door of the house, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves groping for the door.
[12] Then the men said to Lot, "Have you any one else here? Sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or any one you have in the city, bring them out of the place;
[13] for we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it."
[14] So Lot went out and said to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be jesting.
Homosexuality right here. I bring to your attention Genesis 19: 4 - 5,
"But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house;and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them."
Let's see here, "the men of Sodom,...called to lot,"Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them," well, men wanting Lot to bring out his guests so that they may know, which means to have sexual relations with( depending on textual context, this time it means sexual relations ), them. There are numerous other occasions if you don't believe know means that, when Abram conceives, it says he knew her. For instance, look at Genesis 19: 8,
Behold, I have two daughters who have not known man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof."
Then again, when Lot's daughters trick him into having sex with him, it says know as well, here's genesis 19:33 and 35,
Gen 19:33 - So they made their father drink wine that night; and the first-born went in, and lay with her father; he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
Gen 19:35 - So they made their father drink wine that night also; and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.
Okay, I think I have listed enough proof for know meaning sexual relations, and the next verses show God destroying the city for that sin. Gen 19:12 - 13,
Then the men said to Lot, "Have you any one else here? Sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or any one you have in the city, bring them out of the place;
for we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it."
I think it's pretty clear cut what God says about homosexuality.
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:15 pm
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Posted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 11:24 pm
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The G-Bomb CCubed [Cut Scriptures Out] I think it's pretty clear cut what God says about homosexuality. I know what they're going to say. I've been in these discussions before. Argument #1: OT, doesn't count.My Response to #1: I am firmly of the belief that there sins in the OT (such as lying, adultery, etc.) that were carried over from the OT, and this is one of those things. It wasn't all just unclean things such as menstration making one unclean.Argument #2: This is a case of hospitality, not homosexuality.My Response to #2: I think it was a case of both, among more things on top of that. These guys appear to be horny bisexuals that just wanted to potentially rape and have their way with this "new blood" in town....This turned out way more Christmasy looking than I intended. But, I got my point across.
Above that, they wanted to have their way with angels from God. |
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:25 pm
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Some may think I have a very strange way to look at this, but here it goes:
First off, I think homosexuality is wrong. God created man and woman for matters of reproduction. He did not create man and man to populate the world. He did not create woman and woman to populate the world.
But my second opinion jumps in. I don't think we should be prejudice or boycott-maniacs to voice our opinion about gays. I believe that a person cannot help the ways they feel about someone, whether it be man and man or woman and woman or man and woman. For that reason, we cannot be prejudice of something they cannot help. I think they should have rights, not because I agree it is right, but because I recognize that they can't help who they are and I think they should be happy. They are people too, they are God's creation.
Because Jesus loves everyone, so should we whether they are crippled, black, white, small, obese, blind, deaf, mute, a leper, or even a gay. All of those things people cannot help! God made us the way we are. His plan is clear, although we may not always understand it.
But, again, I don't think it is exactly normal...I don't know if I exactly think it is wrong, but I don't think it is normal; because God created Eve, and God created Adam.
I hope this makes sense. It is hard to explain how I feel abotu the subject.
--evangeline.
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Posted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 12:54 pm
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Heh. I tried, really hard, to read all 15 pages. I think I got as far as 7?
But up to where I read most of the stuff was extremely repetitive.
Hmmm. I'm prolly in the minority that my opinion on this stuff isn't really formed yet.
On the one hand, I have yet to see something that convinces me that the bible ever *endorses* gayness. (am *not* going to retype the h word every time it comes up.
I also have seen very few arguements refuting the appearance that the bible opposes it that site their sources. I can only verify an arguements authenticity if I can look at the sources for the arguement myself. In a controversial subject like this, too many people blatantly manufacture information on both sides.
On the other hand, I saw a movie once where the MC was talking about gayness to someone that was condemning it. He said, simply, that "God doesn't make mistakes". Normally I don't let things like that get to me, but for some reason that particular phrase rang true. Well- it is true. And it is a comfort to me.
Despite what some Christians will say or think, there is a *lot* of proof that gayness is very biological. The brains are wired differently, they can smell differently, ect. ect. While beign condemned in many cultures, it has also been accepted in many cultures. Not that I take the fact that a certain culture accepted it as a reason its good- I mean, what percentage of cultures put down women after all?- but it is something I take into account.
Where does this leave me? I don't really have any intention to get involved with that stuff in my own life- too messy and complicated! being gay that is-
But it also means that I don't know where I stand on such an issue today.
At the moment, the only thing I can really look at, then, is the actions of the two different camps. They say you can tell a tree by its fruit. Actually I think Jesus said that. *grin* So I look at both camps: one is full of anger, condemnation, hatred. Sometimes lone individuals without these qualities emerges, but so often I see every day the people with negativity leading that debate. On the other side, I see people that, while they may be a bit more... promiscuous, or at least (heh) more openly so, are very loving. The majority have the very attitudes that I would expect from Jesus. Love, openheartedness, forgiveness. And I think that they do this despite the fact that yes, it has very serious consequences. Think about it: which side is more likely to be attacked? Be serious here.
Heh. No, I didn't say which side was which, I imagine you all know. We all know what the actions are. Is it fair to judge a side by its actions? Well, prolly, but I'm not judging your actions. Gods much better at that. I'm judging if you are someone whos opinion I want to follow.
Keep up the debate, folks, but leave out those tired old OT quotes. Anything useful has long been drained from them.
God bless.
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Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:05 pm
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The one thing my youth leaders seemed to leave out was this - the book that states that homosexuality is WRONG is ALSO the book that states it okay to sell your daughters in to slavery and gives long detailed descriptions on how to sacrifice an animal for God. Also, Leviticus is in the Old Testament - the Old Testament was BEFORE Jesus was born, BEFORE the salvation of humanity, and Jesus is SUPPOSED to have carried all the sins of the world - which would include homosexuality, correct?
In my view, the Old Testament's laws were negated after the death of Christ. I'm not saying we should go and disobey the Ten Commandments, but I don't think you're going to hell because you lied to your parents.
So even IF homosexuality is a 'sin', Christians shouldn't be saying it's the word of God and we're all going to hell because of it.
Because if you believe a murderer can go to heaven because he's been saved, you should be able to think a man who fell in love with another man can go to heaven too.
Now my view on homosexuality itself - I don't identify as a Christian anymore, and I myself am bisexual.
And I can most definitely tell you, I did NOT choose this. I've discussed this with many other GLBTs and it's pretty much the consensus that none of us woke up one morning and decided "Hey, I think it'd be pretty cool to be gay". It just HAPPENS. Like you just happen to like the opposite sex.
And you can't tell me that degayification stuff works - it's been proven that it's harmful to one's mental health to try to change that. And why try fixing something that isn't broken? Those people who CLAIM it worked are more likely bisexuals who decided to marry someone of the opposite sex and act like they don't like the same sex. And then we come to the point that sexuality is not a set thing - I really don't believe there are very many people who AREN'T bi - it's just a matter of what degree it is: more people just have a tendency to brush it off and have a far stronger attraction to the opposite sex.
So why should I go to hell for something I didn't choose? Seems pretty unfair, if you ask me.
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Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:02 pm
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Mizer Manakins The one thing my youth leaders seemed to leave out was this - the book that states that homosexuality is WRONG is ALSO the book that states it okay to sell your daughters in to slavery and gives long detailed descriptions on how to sacrifice an animal for God. Also, Leviticus is in the Old Testament - the Old Testament was BEFORE Jesus was born, BEFORE the salvation of humanity, and Jesus is SUPPOSED to have carried all the sins of the world - which would include homosexuality, correct? In my view, the Old Testament's laws were negated after the death of Christ. I'm not saying we should go and disobey the Ten Commandments, but I don't think you're going to hell because you lied to your parents. So even IF homosexuality is a 'sin', Christians shouldn't be saying it's the word of God and we're all going to hell because of it. Because if you believe a murderer can go to heaven because he's been saved, you should be able to think a man who fell in love with another man can go to heaven too. Now my view on homosexuality itself - I don't identify as a Christian anymore, and I myself am bisexual. And I can most definitely tell you, I did NOT choose this. I've discussed this with many other GLBTs and it's pretty much the consensus that none of us woke up one morning and decided "Hey, I think it'd be pretty cool to be gay". It just HAPPENS. Like you just happen to like the opposite sex. And you can't tell me that degayification stuff works - it's been proven that it's harmful to one's mental health to try to change that. And why try fixing something that isn't broken? Those people who CLAIM it worked are more likely bisexuals who decided to marry someone of the opposite sex and act like they don't like the same sex. And then we come to the point that sexuality is not a set thing - I really don't believe there are very many people who AREN'T bi - it's just a matter of what degree it is: more people just have a tendency to brush it off and have a far stronger attraction to the opposite sex. So why should I go to hell for something I didn't choose? Seems pretty unfair, if you ask me.
I agree, that not always, is it a random thing. there are cases where humans are born with a female body and Male hormones (does happen, it's a combination of either yx or yxx genes, where y controls physical and x controls hormones.). There are also those who are born hermaphrodites (having both sexual organs), and whose parents have accidentally removed the wrong organ. Doctors have to ask this because it is proven that it causes severe psychological stress to those whose parents don't choose.
However, that is not always the case. As such, there must be a cause besides birth. That being said, it would mean that those without the aforementioned characteristics, would have "woke up one morning and decided "Hey, I think it'd be pretty cool to be gay"." So how do explain the people born normally, who have the proper physical and hormonal characteristics, and are homosexual? |
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Posted: Sat Dec 16, 2006 5:54 pm
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I promised myself I'd stay out of this thread, but apparently, I have no self-control. But I'm not debating! I'm merely the bearer of informational reading material.
CCubed However, that is not always the case. As such, there must be a cause besides birth. That being said, it would mean that those without the aforementioned characteristics, would have "woke up one morning and decided "Hey, I think it'd be pretty cool to be gay"." So how do explain the people born normally, who have the proper physical and hormonal characteristics, and are homosexual?
- APA on Sexuality
- Reuters: Gene Alters Sexuality of Fruit Flies
- Cell: Fruit Fly Experiment
- LiveScience: Gay Men and Straight Women's Brains
- The Homosexual Brain
- Gay Men's Brains Found Different
- A Difference in Hypothalmic Structure Between Heterosexual and Homosexual Men
- NewScientist: Pheremone Attracts Straight Women and Gay Men
- NewScientist: Survival of Genetic Homosexual Traits Explained
- Brain Responses Differ in Gay, Straight Men
- Research Finds Differences in Lesbian Brains
- Womb Environment 'Makes Men Gay'
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Posted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:24 pm
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:12 pm
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Posted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:33 pm
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CCubed Genesis 19: I think it's pretty clear cut what God says about homosexuality.
Noooot really.
In another book of the bible, it says exactly what the sin was.
Ezekial 16:49-50
"Now this is the sin of your sister sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed, and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy.
They were haughty and did detestable things before me.
Therefore I did away with them as you have seen."
I really dont know why this is left out when youre trying to say that its about homosexuality. rolleyes Oh wait, probably because this debunks your whole arguement.
You say that these detestable things refer to the homosexual acts?
Proverbs 6:16-19 lists things that are detestable to God.
"There are 6 things the lord hates, seven are detestabe to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked schemes, feet that are quick to rush into evil, a false witness who pours out lies and a man who stirs up dissension among brothers."
I got this info from a pamphlet from my church. |
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