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 Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:34 pm
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SinfulGuillotine Well, there's still the fact that a heterosexual probably wouldn't be involved in homosexual activities. Unless they were experimenting, or veryvery drunk. Or perhaps both. And being homosexual (and believeing that homosexuality is a sin) also essensially means that you can never be with someone you love, and if you are, you certainly can't be physically intimate with them. You're basically doomed to be alone for your entire life, which is a pretty tragic prospect unless you feel strongly called to the priesthood or something. Point is, it's not a "sin" that's likely to be committed unless you're one of the 10% (or thereabouts) of the population with sexual attractions to members of the same sex.
Now that makes sense to me. I find the prospect of not being with someone you love very tragic.
I know what that's like because God chose a college for me that is 800 miles from my family. It's hard to function without them because we're a unit. I love them so intensely. To top that off, In Romanian culture, the family is a unit (my parents are from there, I'm a first gen american). And I don't just mean the immediate family, I mean the extended family. And we can rely on each other for anything.
So I feel major separation anxiety because I'm all by myself up here, and it's hard. I'm completely on my own. I have no protective family bubble. And the people I love most and relate to the best, like my sister, are no where nearby. I won't be celebrating my 18th birthday with them, and it'll be my first birthday by myself. I can't hang out with my sister and have hilarious late-night conversations, or do anything that we did before. No more sisterly bonding customs or anything like that.
It's tragic not to be with someone I love.
But it doesn't change the fact that God called me here anyway. Don't get me wrong, He's done so much good in this, but it hurts a lot.
God asks us to put our desires on the back burner sometimes. Love and being with those you love falls into that category as well, as I have learned.
Quote: Also, as I said, I think it's easier to place blame if you can tell a homosexual "you chose to be that way." And it's easier to be hostile towards someone when you can blame them for the way they are. Which is why, for me, it's important that people understand that homosexual attractions are not a choice.
You know, I think that's the silliest thing I've ever heard. Not what you're trying to do, but the having to blame sin on someone thing. Sin is in our nature, by golly. We all have that flesh that we fight against, that sinful nature which is common to all of humanity.
If we're all born with sin embedded in our hearts, I don't see why homosexuality should be treated differently, even if people are born homosexual. If one is going to be hostile to one kind of sin, be hostile to them all. Maybe it's because homosexuality deals with intimacy.
God calls me to love everyone. The cross doesn't have a "homosexuals can't have this" sign over it. Who am I to prohibit anyone from it or be hostile to someone for it?
As Christians, we should definetly be on the same page about that. =) Yay. After all, we've got more things to worry about than whether or not it's okay to be gay.
Though I might as well state that I feel inclined to say that it's wrong. I simply am not convinced by Ananel's thesis. I want to study these issues on my own with a passion. And to me it seems that at least gay sex is wrong via what scripture says, and I want to know why the relationship is okay if the sex isn't, by my understanding at least.
I hope I'm not offending you by saying any of what I do, it's simply my viewpoint. |
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 12:18 am
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Berezi Now that makes sense to me. I find the prospect of not being with someone you love very tragic. I know what that's like because God chose a college for me that is 800 miles from my family. It's hard to function without them because we're a unit. I love them so intensely. To top that off, In Romanian culture, the family is a unit (my parents are from there, I'm a first gen american). And I don't just mean the immediate family, I mean the extended family. And we can rely on each other for anything. So I feel major separation anxiety because I'm all by myself up here, and it's hard. I'm completely on my own. I have no protective family bubble. And the people I love most and relate to the best, like my sister, are no where nearby. I won't be celebrating my 18th birthday with them, and it'll be my first birthday by myself. I can't hang out with my sister and have hilarious late-night conversations, or do anything that we did before. No more sisterly bonding customs or anything like that.
Quote: It's tragic not to be with someone I love. But it doesn't change the fact that God called me here anyway. Don't get me wrong, He's done so much good in this, but it hurts a lot. God asks us to put our desires on the back burner sometimes. Love and being with those you love falls into that category as well, as I have learned.
But to love someone and be told that you cannot be with them, not because of something physical like distance, but because that love is somehow tainted and evil...that cuts deeply in a completely different way. To be told that to be a "good Christian," or indeed, a "good person" means that you'll never be able to share your life with someone in an intimate, romantic way...well, that sucks, frankly. Not that "sucks," even begins to cover it.
Or worse yet, to have someone try to tell you that you cannot love a person romantically because they're of the same gender. To be told that you're actually incapable of achieving that sort of love because you're in love with someone of the same sex.
Quote: You know, I think that's the silliest thing I've ever heard. Not what you're trying to do, but the having to blame sin on someone thing. Sin is in our nature, by golly. We all have that flesh that we fight against, that sinful nature which is common to all of humanity.
Very often, in fact.
Quote: If we're all born with sin embedded in our hearts, I don't see why homosexuality should be treated differently, even if people are born homosexual. If one is going to be hostile to one kind of sin, be hostile to them all. Maybe it's because homosexuality deals with intimacy.
Because we either love sex or we love to hate sex, and the morality of something like sex and sexuality is so personal that, naturally, we feel it is our duty to snoop and patrol when goes on behind other people's bedroom doors.
But that's a rant for another time.
Quote: God calls me to love everyone. The cross doesn't have a "homosexuals can't have this" sign over it. Who am I to prohibit anyone from it or be hostile to someone for it?
That's all I can say.
Quote: As Christians, we should definetly be on the same page about that. =) Yay. After all, we've got more things to worry about than whether or not it's okay to be gay.
It's actually kind of silly how much of a stir homosexuality causes, because really, I think there are far more pressing issues.
Not that I don't feed the fire. I do. Exhibit A: I'm on this thread.
Quote: Though I might as well state that I feel inclined to say that it's wrong. I simply am not convinced by Ananel's thesis. I want to study these issues on my own with a passion. And to me it seems that at least gay sex is wrong via what scripture says, and I want to know why the relationship is okay if the sex isn't, by my understanding at least. I hope I'm not offending you by saying any of what I do, it's simply my viewpoint.
And I would encourage you to study it on your own, and I think that's great that you're going to.
I guess one thing I've realised about the study of such texts, however, (or at least, so I've been told by several experts) is that really, anyone can twist the translation to say what they want it to say, and since we're all biased, especially on such an emotionally-charged subject, I really dont think that we're ever going to find an answer that we can all agree with. Ancient languages are tricky. I studied quite a bit of Latin in secondary school (Catholic school. Latin was required. I did a little bit of ancient Greek too, but not enough to be any sort of reliable authority on...well, any translations), and sometimes it gets murky. It's the nature of the beast.
So the conclusion that I've come to is that I just have to live my life the best way I know how, and be the best Christian I can be. |
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Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 9:24 am
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SinfulGuillotine I can relate. I had to leave home for school too. It's tough. Really tough.
Indeed. Our family relationship is still really strong, though. You're not misguided at all.
Quote: But the difference between your analogy of family and say...my male lover is that your family is still there. You may not be able to see them very often, but that love still exists as strongly as ever, and you still have all those people you love who will welcome you with open arms if and when you should return to them. (I'm assuming that your relationship with your family is still strong, even though you're not physically with them. Sorry if that's a misguided assumption.) But to love someone and be told that you cannot be with them, not because of something physical like distance, but because that love is somehow tainted and evil...that cuts deeply in a completely different way.
I can see the difference. And that's got to be tough to deal with. I genuinely feel compassion for the kind of exclusion you must face.
Somehow I doubt God feels differently. So many things in life are tough to deal with. I believe that if God believes homosexuality is wrong, God would definetely call us to give up that romantic love, though He feels our hurt when we do it. It's a request God has made in the past (I believe God asked that of Jeremiah), and that ended up being the best thing for Jeremiah though I am sure it hurt him immensely.
My point is this: if it is wrong, and God desires for you to give up acting on your orientation, then as much as it might hurt you, God will use it for the best. I have other life-situations that really make me believe that God can use even extreme pain for the best. God used His own extreme pain for the best when He put His Son on the cross for our sake. If God had based what He would or wouldn't do on how much something hurt, we wouldn't be redeemed today.
Please keep in mind that I seriously can empathize with you, though not quite on the same level. I only say what I do to show that if God views homosexuality as wrong, even the pain of not acting on it is not a good enough excuse for doing so. Especially because when God asks us to do something painful, He helps us through it every step of the way.
Quote: To be told that to be a "good Christian," or indeed, a "good person" means that you'll never be able to share your life with someone in an intimate, romantic way...well, that sucks, frankly. Not that "sucks," even begins to cover it. Or worse yet, to have someone try to tell you that you cannot love a person romantically because they're of the same gender. To be told that you're actually incapable of achieving that sort of love because you're in love with someone of the same sex.
And if people have told you that, I totally disagree with them. Quite frankly, we all have different things we struggle with. If someone told me I couldn't be a good Christian or a good person because I am easily angered or struggle with lust, I'd be really hurt. Especially with the lust thing, no matter how hard I try I still fall in that so much. But God still uses me to do His work and God still values me enough to die for me. Our relationship is still very strong. I think if those people thought about the sin in their own lives that is almost chronic, they'd be less quick to point out yours.
It seems to me like you have all the markings of a good Christian, of someone whom God works in.
Quote: I think it's our obsession with sex, honestly. That's a completely different topic all together, but seriously, anything that deals with sex is automatically controversial. Because we either love sex or we love to hate sex, and the morality of something like sex and sexuality is so personal that, naturally, we feel it is our duty to snoop and patrol when goes on behind other people's bedroom doors. But that's a rant for another time.
True indeed. It's still so very idiotic, though.
Quote: I wish more people thought like you. That's all I can say.
I wish more people did, too. It would simplify things a bit.
Quote: Oh, I totally agree. It's actually kind of silly how much of a stir homosexuality causes, because really, I think there are far more pressing issues. Not that I don't feed the fire. I do. Exhibit A: I'm on this thread.
It's not like it's unimportant.
But what I do think is silly is how people come in to discussions like this expecting to convince everyone that they're right, and that if they don't accept their viewpoint, they're a bad Christian.
This shouldn't be a divisive issue, especially given the ambiguity, or at least the reported ambiguity, of the text.
Quite frankly, I'm okay with you believing it's okay to be gay. I still see you growing in and pursuing God, and that makes you His child. And honestly, I don't think God's going to say "I knew you, but you just never stopped being gay. Guess you really didn't love me."
Quote: Oh, trust me, you're not offending me in the slightest. I'm not really easily offended. Easily irritated, yes, but not easilt offended. xd And I would encourage you to study it on your own, and I think that's great that you're going to. I guess one thing I've realised about the study of such texts, however, (or at least, so I've been told by several experts) is that really, anyone can twist the translation to say what they want it to say, and since we're all biased, especially on such an emotionally-charged subject, I really dont think that we're ever going to find an answer that we can all agree with. Ancient languages are tricky. I studied quite a bit of Latin in secondary school (Catholic school. Latin was required. I did a little bit of ancient Greek too, but not enough to be any sort of reliable authority on...well, any translations), and sometimes it gets murky. It's the nature of the beast.
Already in my Greek studies I have encountered that. It's kind of funny.
Quote: So the conclusion that I've come to is that I just have to live my life the best way I know how, and be the best Christian I can be.
Agreed.
It's cool how much you sincerely pursue God. At least until I came to Wheaton, it wasn't that often that I met people who pursued God quite that powerfully. |
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 5:23 pm
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Berezi Indeed. Our family relationship is still really strong, though. You're not misguided at all.
Quote: I can see the difference. And that's got to be tough to deal with. I genuinely feel compassion for the kind of exclusion you must face. Somehow I doubt God feels differently. So many things in life are tough to deal with. I believe that if God believes homosexuality is wrong, God would definetely call us to give up that romantic love, though He feels our hurt when we do it. It's a request God has made in the past (I believe God asked that of Jeremiah), and that ended up being the best thing for Jeremiah though I am sure it hurt him immensely. My point is this: if it is wrong, and God desires for you to give up acting on your orientation, then as much as it might hurt you, God will use it for the best. I have other life-situations that really make me believe that God can use even extreme pain for the best. God used His own extreme pain for the best when He put His Son on the cross for our sake. If God had based what He would or wouldn't do on how much something hurt, we wouldn't be redeemed today. Please keep in mind that I seriously can empathize with you, though not quite on the same level. I only say what I do to show that if God views homosexuality as wrong, even the pain of not acting on it is not a good enough excuse for doing so. Especially because when God asks us to do something painful, He helps us through it every step of the way.
Quote: And if people have told you that, I totally disagree with them. Quite frankly, we all have different things we struggle with. If someone told me I couldn't be a good Christian or a good person because I am easily angered or struggle with lust, I'd be really hurt. Especially with the lust thing, no matter how hard I try I still fall in that so much. But God still uses me to do His work and God still values me enough to die for me. Our relationship is still very strong. I think if those people thought about the sin in their own lives that is almost chronic, they'd be less quick to point out yours.
But it's always easier for us to point out other people's faults than to acknowledge our own. That doesn't mean that it's a good thing to do, but it's human nature.
It's just one of the more irritating parts of human nature.
Quote: It's not like it's unimportant. But what I do think is silly is how people come in to discussions like this expecting to convince everyone that they're right, and that if they don't accept their viewpoint, they're a bad Christian.
I've heard some people say that even if you're not homosexual, but support the legal rights of homosexuals, you're going to Hell.
Which causes much eyerolling from me.
Quote: This shouldn't be a divisive issue, especially given the ambiguity, or at least the reported ambiguity, of the text.
Quote: Quite frankly, I'm okay with you believing it's okay to be gay. I still see you growing in and pursuing God, and that makes you His child. And honestly, I don't think God's going to say "I knew you, but you just never stopped being gay. Guess you really didn't love me."
Quote: Already in my Greek studies I have encountered that. It's kind of funny.
But I ran out of money, so I didn't.
Quote: It's cool how much you sincerely pursue God. At least until I came to Wheaton, it wasn't that often that I met people who pursued God quite that powerfully.
Likewise. Except that I don't go to Wheaton (which I think I've actually heard of), so I'm still stuck with a lack of intelligent, sincere Christians. |
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:20 pm
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SinfulGuillotine Oh, of course we have to sacrifice for God. And in many ways beyond romantic relationships.
I guess the real issue is whether or not God calls for you to do that. And obviously no one has really proferred a satsifying answer.
Quote: Agreed. But it's always easier for us to point out other people's faults than to acknowledge our own. That doesn't mean that it's a good thing to do, but it's human nature. It's just one of the more irritating parts of human nature.
Yeah. I do that often myself. =) I guess what matters is how much we let that nature dominate our thoughts.
Quote: Yeah, exactly. I've heard some people say that even if you're not homosexual, but support the legal rights of homosexuals, you're going to Hell. Which causes much eyerolling from me.
Quote: This shouldn't be a divisive issue, especially given the ambiguity, or at least the reported ambiguity, of the text.
Quote: I went to a book sale on Saturday and almost bought a book on how to learn basic Greek. But I ran out of money, so I didn't.
Greek's been really confusing. We've knocked off more grammar in 5 weeks than we did in 10 weeks of German in high school.
If you're passionate about it and are good with English grammar, I might be able to hook you up with some resources. =)
Quote: Aww, thank you. *blush* Likewise. Except that I don't go to Wheaton (which I think I've actually heard of), so I'm still stuck with a lack of intelligent, sincere Christians.
Wheaton's actually had a bunch of controversy over the years. I wouldn't be surprised if you heard of it.
Wheaton's made some flawed decisions over the years and some really good ones. Bono came and talked on campus because of the AIDs work the entire campus has done. There was controversy over evolution a while back, and then later controversy over a Catholic professor. It's also one of the top 100 liberal arts colleges in the nation. Also, people like Billy Graham, Jim Elliot, and Todd Beamer went here. In short, it's a pretty crazy campus.
Some of the things Wheaton has done I would have done differently. But God is still definetly at work doing good things here.
I don't know where you do go, but I also think that there's got to be aa few intellingent, sincere Christians where you are.
Where have you been all weekend, by the way? I missed this discussion. =) |
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:03 pm
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Berezi I guess the real issue is whether or not God calls for you to do that. And obviously no one has really proferred a satsifying answer.
Quote: Yeah. I do that often myself. =) I guess what matters is how much we let that nature dominate our thoughts.
Seems to be pretty true in a lot of cases.
Quote: Greek's been really confusing. We've knocked off more grammar in 5 weeks than we did in 10 weeks of German in high school. If you're passionate about it and are good with English grammar, I might be able to hook you up with some resources. =)
But I have pretty easy access to resources. My partner's an English professor, so I can always go pester some of his collegues in the classics department.
I just wanted this one book because it was pretty. [/materialistic]
Quote: Wheaton's actually had a bunch of controversy over the years. I wouldn't be surprised if you heard of it. Wheaton's made some flawed decisions over the years and some really good ones. Bono came and talked on campus because of the AIDs work the entire campus has done. There was controversy over evolution a while back, and then later controversy over a Catholic professor. It's also one of the top 100 liberal arts colleges in the nation. Also, people like Billy Graham, Jim Elliot, and Todd Beamer went here. In short, it's a pretty crazy campus. Some of the things Wheaton has done I would have done differently. But God is still definetly at work doing good things here.
A school that has done AIDS work is good in my book, though.
Quote: I don't know where you do go, but I also think that there's got to be aa few intellingent, sincere Christians where you are.
Quote: Where have you been all weekend, by the way? I missed this discussion. =) |
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:58 pm
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SinfulGuillotine They say that the reason we hate certain people is that we see the ugly aspects of our personality reflected in them. Seems to be pretty true in a lot of cases.
Indeed. There are two responses to this, though.
1) see the ugly aspects of your personality and hate.
2) see the ugly aspects of your personality and reach out and love.
The people who struggle with the same flaws we do are the people who most need us to reach out to them. One of my closest relationships is with my fellow sister in Christ who is a lot like me in many ways, both good and bad. Things would be different with her if I had hated her for the things that I also exhibited. Instead we have a beautiful relationship. We can call each other out on those things, and more importantly, as God helps us grow and become more like Him, we can share what God's done and therefore help the other in their walk with Christ.
Quote: Aw, thanks. But I have pretty easy access to resources. My partner's an English professor, so I can always go pester some of his collegues in the classics department. I just wanted this one book because it was pretty. [/materialistic]
XD. That's hawt. I bought one book because it was pretty. The only difference is that my book was for 50 cents in a thrift store...
Quote: Ah, okay. A school that has done AIDS work is good in my book, though.
Yeah. I think that Wheaton is a good school as a whole. But it's also run by humans. It's not going to be perfect.
It's a school I'm glad God's called me to attend.
And furthermore, it has only been here that I have really been able to cope with a lot of the craziness of this past summer. God's used everything from the learning material to the fellow students here to work in my heart.
Quote: Royal Academy of Music. I'm a violinist. All my friends seem to be Jewish....probably because Jews tend to have loads of musical talent and lots of tastey food.
That sounds like a non-american school. Wow.
Tasty food...hmm...good things.
But you know, that's where you get to be shiny. =)
And I have so much respect for musicians in general, especially violinists because that's my favorite instrument. Violins are so...universal. They sound just as beautiful to classical music as they do in a rock setting. =)
Quote: Well, I went to a rock concert on Saturday night, and went to the band's party afterwards since I used to date one of the members and ended up not getting any sleep on Saturday, so I slept most of Sunday. Haha.
Neat! I had a birthday....It's like a rock concert, but not.
I had a Dairy Queen escapade...which doesn't sound like a bunch, but get a bunch of boys from your brother floor singing disney songs plus being serenaded from afar and you've got some fun. =) We also smashed a penny on the railroad tracks. It was great! |
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Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 10:49 pm
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Alumnus Tangled Up In Blue Looks like the thread's going to be kicked off with a discussion of the applicability of ceremonial law post-Christ. Alumnus "22You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination." Leviticus 18:22 "He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code [i.e. the ceremonial laws of Leviticus, Exodus, and Deuteronomy], with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross." - Colossians 2:13-14 (Emphasis mine.) Or, to put it another way, do you, per chance, eat shellfish? Quote: "For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due." In the Greek, the word translated as 'unnatural' or 'against nature' can have several different connotations. It can mean something against nature, but it can also refer to something that is against and individual's nature, or against a society's prevailing social mores. For example, among the Romans, to whom Paul's letter is addressed, it would be considered 'unnatural' for a Roman citizen to take the 'bottom' role in a homosexual relationship insomuch as it would be emasculating and therefore shameful, but not in the sense that it would necessarily be a crime against the natural order of things. The exact meaning of the word in this context is rather ambiguous; certainly ambiguous enough that it ought to give us pause before we interpret it as an implicit condemnation of homosexuality. Moreover, the thrust of the passage has to do with loss of control and God's punishment of those that forsake Him. It is not an explicit condemnation of homosexual relations. Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman. I'm sorry, but I can't figure out what you don't understand by that verse. It means don't do it. And yes there are many different greek meanings for the word unnatural but you don't know which one it is. An no i don't eat seafood, but it you want to refer to the levitucus as ineffective think of it this way, anything that no longer applies from the old testament God cleared up in the new testament. Sacrifices:Jesus Sacrificed once and for All(Hebrews 10:11 and 12) Eating Unclean Food sad Matthew 15:16-20) Ceremonial Cleansing sad Matthew 15:1, 16-20) Besides if that is the way that we are going to see it then, I guess the whole beastiality thing is okay too, because it's in Leviticus, and it's not exactly unnatural. Please Use scripture, not explanations or "logical reasoning"
I always thought the statement "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman." refered to how in sex (and generally all life at the time), women were submissive. By two men engaging in intercouse one, it's supposed one would need to take on a submissive 'woman like' role. However gender attitudes have changed greatly since this time. So wouldn't the attitude towards two men loving each other have changed also? If they are equal partners and neither has a 'feminine' role? Which I also disagree with as I think there is no such thing as femininity or masculinity.. But anyway. |
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 2:10 pm
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Quote: SinfulGuillotine Babbalui I want to know what every one thinks about this: Do you think that gays, for the most part, choose to be gay, or are they mostly messed up because of an inbalance of chemicals in the brain? It's not a choice. I can dig of scientific studies that support that, if you want them. I'm not going to waste my time if you're not going to read them (or at least skim them), though. Quote: I have no idea where to stand, but I am highly against gays. 3nodding sweatdrop I get into dozens of arguements in the past few months about this and no one has come out of it with a changed perspective. It's because, like with any emotionally charged subject, both sides have atendancy to stick their heads in the sand. Quote: I refuse to even talk with gays. neutral Am I being to harsh on the matter? Uhm...yes. Because, y'know, it's so Christ-like to refuse to associate with people because you don't like one aspect of their private life. rolleyes SinfulGuillotine Babbalui Well, when I say that I refuse to even talk with them, I am exaggerating. I talk with gays on occassion because: 1) I didn't know until I became friends with them. That puts a damper on the friendship. sweatdrop 2) Or i'm arguing with them. 3nodding Ohnoes, your friends don't agree with everything you say? THE WORLD IS ENDING!!!111!! rolleyes Quote: The thing is, not a single gay that I know has any intention of changing, so I just don't bother with them any more. I have honestly tried dozens of times on a single person to get them to go with me to youthgroup or to just listen to what I have to say, but they refuse to hear it. They want to be gay and that is final. sweatdrop I realized lately, from many points of view, most Atheist's believe that being gay is not a choice but something that you are born with and most Christians that I have spoken with agree that it is a choice that the person makes to themselves. No one (or at least, no one I've met) "wants" to be gay. I'm not sure what your idea of fun is, but for most people, getting fired from their jobs, beaten up, called names, spit on, losing respect of friends and family members, etc. isn't exactly on the list of "what makes a really great party." And, as I mentioned before, I can always dig up some studies if you're not prepared to take my word on it. Also, sexuality is not something you can change, even if you wanted to. So it's not that homosexuals just refuse to listen to you and refuse to change. They cannot change, regardless of how much they want to. I have psychological studies to back that up too. Quote: So, I have come to the conclusion that the whole "gay - straight" argument is an almost purely religious conflict. I used to believe that it was a normal "Is it right or wrong" type of argument. Boy, was I wrong! gonk Generally (I'm not saying all - I've met some truly wonderful, compassionate Christians in my day) Christians try to say that homosexuality is a choice so that they can place the blame of the "sin" completely on the homosexuals themselves. It's easier to hate someone if you can say "You chose this!" than to say "I hate you because of how you were born!" Which leaves the gay community hating the Christian community, and the Christians community hating the gay community. (Which, trust me, puts me in an awkward place.) It's extremely detrimental to both parties. I hate posting with seperate quotes like all of you have been doing, so I am going to clump all of my points together. Alright, I never said I hated gays, I just won't talk to them. I don't agree with being gay and if some one is openly gay, then I will not talk to them. That is that. Statistics prove nothing to me in this case. I am not "gay" nor will I ever be. I do agree with you that almost every person on this earth has a homosexual thought from time to time, but I do not agree that it is a matter of "They cannot change." That right there is a load of crap. Every person on this earth has the God given gift to choose! They choose to be gay. Now, some cases are rare that a person is born with a contradicting mindset from their actual gender, but those are rare. I have seen many cases where people have been gay for half of their life and they came clean, which shows that it is not a matter of "cannot" but more like "Will not" or "believes they can't." This is one thing that I believe with all of my heart, so there is no arguing. That is one part that I was stating, not asking for guidance. Now, I do have friends that are gay, but I can tolerate that fact because they do not express it. They choose not to be open with it. Some have even claimed to have turned straight, but we will see the product of that claim in the future. Man was made in God's image. Is God gay? No. Humans are gay out of choice. We were never intended to love those of the same sex. Now, unchangable gayness, or a birth defect in my opinion, is a man caused problem. We poison our minds with increasing sin every day and we also poison ourselves physically with the drugs and nuclear radiation. Radiation can screw people up real bad. sweatdrop Saying that a person has no choice but to be gay is a lie or misconception. I am forcing my opinion because you were no more generous to me when you shot me down as well. I was asking for opinions, not snap backs. stare |
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Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2006 3:19 pm
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Babbalui I hate posting with seperate quotes like all of you have been doing, so I am going to clump all of my points together.
Quote: Alright, I never said I hated gays, I just won't talk to them. I don't agree with being gay and if some one is openly gay, then I will not talk to them. That is that.
This is basically what you're saying: "It's not that I don't like you! I just refuse to talk to you because of who you're attracted to!"
Honestly, how is that mature and Christ-like? Tell me what you're accomplishing by doing that.
Quote: Statistics prove nothing to me in this case.
Quote: I am not "gay" nor will I ever be. I do agree with you that almost every person on this earth has a homosexual thought from time to time, but I do not agree that it is a matter of "They cannot change." That right there is a load of crap.
You're not homosexual, nor do you have a degree in psychology, so how on earth could you have any idea if it's possible to change your sexuality? Could you go out and fall madly in love with another man tomorrow? Could you chose to be sexually, emotionally, and physically attracted to him at the snap of your fingers? If sexuality is such a simple matter of choice, then prove it. Make yourself gay, and then make yourself straight again.
Quote: Every person on this earth has the God given gift to choose! They choose to be gay.
- APA on Sexuality
- Reuters: Gene Alters Sexuality of Fruit Flies
- Cell: Fruit Fly Experiment
- LiveScience: Gay Men and Straight Women's Brains
- The Homosexual Brain
- Gay Men's Brains Found Different
- A Difference in Hypothalmic Structure Between Heterosexual and Homosexual Men
- NewScientist: Pheremone Attracts Straight Women and Gay Men
- NewScientist: Survival of Genetic Homosexual Traits Explained
- Brain Responses Differ in Gay, Straight Men
- Research Finds Differences in Lesbian Brains
- Womb Environment 'Makes Men Gay'
Quote: Now, some cases are rare that a person is born with a contradicting mindset from their actual gender, but those are rare.
Quote: I have seen many cases where people have been gay for half of their life and they came clean, which shows that it is not a matter of "cannot" but more like "Will not" or "believes they can't." This is one thing that I believe with all of my heart, so there is no arguing. That is one part that I was stating, not asking for guidance.
Regarding changing sexuality:
- APA on Reparative Therapy
- Estimates of Success
- Anything But Straight: Ex-Gay History
- Ex-Gay Watch: News and Analysis of Ex-Gay Politics
- The Ex Files: Not Your Usual Gays
- Facts About Changing Sexual Orientation
- Critique of Spitzer's "Ex-Gay" Study
Quote: Now, I do have friends that are gay, but I can tolerate that fact because they do not express it. They choose not to be open with it.
Quote: Some have even claimed to have turned straight, but we will see the product of that claim in the future.
Quote: Man was made in God's image. Is God gay? No.
Quote: Humans are gay out of choice. We were never intended to love those of the same sex. Now, unchangable gayness, or a birth defect in my opinion, is a man caused problem. We poison our minds with increasing sin every day and we also poison ourselves physically with the drugs and nuclear radiation. Radiation can screw people up real bad. sweatdrop
Quote: Saying that a person has no choice but to be gay is a lie or misconception.
Quote: I am forcing my opinion because you were no more generous to me when you shot me down as well. I was asking for opinions, not snap backs. stare
You call yourself a Christian. A follower of the teachings of Christ, and yet you hide behind those teachings to discriminate against a group of people that, sinners or not, Christ would have embraced.
I'd love to get an explaination on that logic. |
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 4:42 pm
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Babbalui Alright, I never said I hated gays, I just won't talk to them. I don't agree with being gay and if some one is openly gay, then I will not talk to them. That is that.
Right. That's definetly not discrimination, which pretty much has its roots in either fear or hatred. Of course not. rolleyes
Quote: Now, I do have friends that are gay, but I can tolerate that fact because they do not express it. They choose not to be open with it. Some have even claimed to have turned straight, but we will see the product of that claim in the future.
Quote: Radiation can screw people up real bad. sweatdrop
Radiation causes people to be gay, you say? I guess they must have had nuclear bombs/capabilities back in biblical times. I mean, really, people in Sodom and Gomorrah were gay, and all before they had running water! And then there's the people in the ancient Greek/Roman societies, and all before we even knew an atom existed!
Really, these people were so scientifically advanced! Either that or the UV rays were really shining down on the earth back then - wait, that would mean the Ozone layer was deficient then, and hasn't it been getting progressively worse? We'd be fried by now if UV rays were the problem.
Quote: I am forcing my opinion because you were no more generous to me when you shot me down as well. I was asking for opinions, not snap backs. stare |
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:47 pm
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Well, I guess nothing I say matters. Everything you say that is forced against me is just as bad as anything forced against you. So, what makes either of you any better? Yes, I am not a full-out christian. So what? I'm working on it. God will forgive me once I make that true transition. You should know that I am a new christian as of about 3 years ago and I am only recently starting to take it seriously. I am far too lazy to read any of your links or look up any other links of my own, but once again, you are looking at this one sided. You pull facts from one side of the arguement. Find proof that there are not studies that contradict that of your links and I will take this a little more lightheartedly.
Now, Sinful, you are gay are you not? No wonder you are so defencive. rolleyes
I never had one intention to get into an arguement with any one when I asked my original question. For being "Good people" you guys sure suck at being them. I may not be as educated as you on the matter, but what makes you think you are any better than me in anything? That in itself is a sin. stare I will say that I have no proof to argue with you any further. I could get some, but I don't feel like wasting my time on you.
I am tired of arguing with you two. I would understand if I was hearing this from a true christian, but there aren't many of those are there? I will not listen to your worldly crap any further, so have fun trying to shove your one-sided proof down some one elses throat while I go somewhere where there are more understanding and helpful people. rolleyes
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Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:26 pm
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Babbalui Well, I guess nothing I say matters. Everything you say that is forced against me is just as bad as anything forced against you.
Quote: So, what makes either of you any better?
Quote: Yes, I am not a full-out christian. So what? I'm working on it. God will forgive me once I make that true transition. You should know that I am a new christian as of about 3 years ago and I am only recently starting to take it seriously.
In that case, you should thank me for pointing out that what you're doing is not the "good Christian" thing to do.
Quote: I am far too lazy to read any of your links or look up any other links of my own,
Quote: but once again, you are looking at this one sided.
Quote: You pull facts from one side of the arguement. Find proof that there are not studies that contradict that of your links and I will take this a little more lightheartedly.
I pull my information from the most inbiased sources that I can, because they're the most likely to hold up in both religious and secular debates. I try to stick with hard, scientific fact that comes from organisations that are not associated with any particular religious or political group. It just so happens that those unbiased sources back up my claims. I'm sorry?
Quote: Now, Sinful, you are gay are you not? No wonder you are so defencive. rolleyes
Because, you know, it's not like I've ever experienced what sort of acts of cruelty this kind of ignorance generally harbours. Really, I have no idea why I'd be so concerned with stamping out myths about human sexuality. Everyone knows that I really just adore getting beat up. rolleyes
Quote: I never had one intention to get into an arguement with any one when I asked my original question.
Quote: For being "Good people" you guys sure suck at being them.
How would you have any idea of what kind of a person I am? Not being a little ray of sunshine to you now makes me a bad person?
Quote: I may not be as educated as you on the matter, but what makes you think you are any better than me in anything? That in itself is a sin. stare
No. I'm pointing out that you're wrong, and I'm pointing out why you're wrong. I don't sugar-coat things just to save people's feelings. It's not my style. However, I never said that I was better than you in any way, shape, or
Quote: I will say that I have no proof to argue with you any further. I could get some, but I don't feel like wasting my time on you.
Quote: I am tired of arguing with you two. I would understand if I was hearing this from a true christian, but there aren't many of those are there?
As I said before, you don't know anything about me beyond the fact that I'm not being warm and friendly to you. So now you're just flinging insults. Excellent.
Quote: I will not listen to your worldly crap any further, so have fun trying to shove your one-sided proof down some one elses throat while I go somewhere where there are more understanding and helpful people. rolleyes
I don't see any "worldly crap" going on besides the fact that I have proof to my claims, while you don't.
You come into a debate thread, you post a bunch of ignorant and potentially offensive BS, and...what? You expect it to be greeted with smiles and handshakes?
I think you'll find that I'm actually a very understanding and helpful person. If you had entered this thread and said "You know, I'm really not all that sure about homosexuality. Here's what I've heard. Is that right?" I would have held your hand and kindly handed out some better information to you.
But no. You come galavanting in here proclaiming that "teh gheys" aren't even good enough for you to waste your time speaking to, and then proceed to spew a bunch of crap like you're the next Sigmund Freud, and then you get mad when you're proven wrong.
Honestly, what did you expect? |
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 4:50 pm
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Babbalui Well, I guess nothing I say matters. Everything you say that is forced against me is just as bad as anything forced against you.
Quote: So, what makes either of you any better? Yes, I am not a full-out christian. So what? I'm working on it. God will forgive me once I make that true transition. You should know that I am a new christian as of about 3 years ago and I am only recently starting to take it seriously.
Which is wonderful, actually. If you will not look up Sinful's links, that's fine. But do at least think upon what we've been saying about how you decide not to talk to gay people. You have a new standard to live by now, even if it's not one that you appreciate at the moment. God doesn't necissarily approve of homosexuality (and by the way, I do not feel that it's okay just because animals can be homosexual, because we tend naturally to many sins like violence, pride, and the like. Being "born with it" doesn't make it okay).
The only thing I am contending with you on is how you treat gay people. I feel that it's wrong to be gay, but I also know that God doesn't say "the cross isn't for gay people."
That, and the radiation bit. If anything, homosexuality is caused by sin, not by radiation. Perhaps I should have clarified that earlier.
Quote: Find proof that there are not studies that contradict that of your links and I will take this a little more lightheartedly.
In a debate, that's supposed to be your job. Sure, in a formailized debate, you will research both sides of it, but you will only present your ideas. Knowing what others say only serves the purpose of countering it.
Quote: For being "Good people" you guys sure suck at being them.
Of course I suck at being a good person. I can only remotely call myself that because God makes me that, and even then my sinful nature still comes through. I am a Christian, but I am also a sinner.
Quote: I may not be as educated as you on the matter, but what makes you think you are any better than me in anything? That in itself is a sin.
And if that's what somehow got conveyed, that's not at all what I think of you.
Quote: I could get some, but I don't feel like wasting my time on you. I am tired of arguing with you two. I would understand if I was hearing this from a true christian, but there aren't many of those are there? I will not listen to your worldly crap any further, so have fun trying to shove your one-sided proof down some one elses throat while I go somewhere where there are more understanding and helpful people. rolleyes
Ignore what Sinful has to say about homosexuality if you wish, but do not ignore the counsel provided for your treatment of homosexuals. There is nothing worldy about loving your neighbor as yourself. If you had some sin in your life, how would you feel if people completely ignored you solely because of that sin? I'm pretty sure you would be hurt. God does not exclude you from the mercies that the cross provides because of any one sin in your life, neither should you ignore people because of a sin in their life?
If you call that counsel "worldy crap", you insult one of the most important things about God - His love, grace, and mercy.
Yes, God's got justice, but it's not for you to mete. God judges, not you. You love. |
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Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:33 pm
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