When an author is out of their mind...

[Kuroiban]

This is a digression from the "Ordeals" topic, down the road. I would have posted this there, but I felt the question was more proper for a discussion all it's own, and I don't want to hamper people from moving on more productive conversation.

I've read enough Krasskova to say that I like her writing style. When writing more "general edu" books, her tone is clear, well spoken, and while she occasionally meanders down more philosophical and ethereal information....well, to put it blankly, she never comes off as utterly batshit.

I've heard of the ordeals stuff before, though I never got to quite the level of detail presented here. I'm very torn.

On one hand, Krasskova was the first authoress I had come across, and I think she did an admirable job introducing me to a number of concepts. She was the first author in any book within the Pagan/New Age hemisphere (for lack of better terminology), that even acknowledged UPG (that I had found at least). On the other hand....well....also for a lack of better terminology, the b***h be trippin'.

To the assembled masses, I pose this...

What do you do when you come across a source of information that is, arguably, respectable...only to find out the author/authoress/source is out of their cotton-pickin mind? Do you throw the book out, both metaphorically and literally, or is this a matter of being careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater?  

[erinnightwalker]

I have experience with this one. Michelle Belanger (sp? the psychic vampire chick) wrote a book called the Psychic Vampire Codex. If you look at the reasoning behind House Khepheru, it sounds just like grade A bullpoop. Mind you, first time I read it it was a loan from the library. So why, when the chance to buy it came up, did I blow money on it? Because it has the clearest and most concise instructions for aura manipulation and training I have encountered up to date.

I just read the "explanations" when I need a sleeping aid ^_^  

[Kuroiban]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

For me it depends on the person. Cunningham has performed some ********, but he's a good person to touch base on. For me, Krasskova's work has to go out with her. I can't allow myself to support or endure anything that woman does.

I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that, and here's why.

Going by that logic, I shouldn't want to be a Norse Recon at all...for that's what she's preaching, even if she isn't preaching it correctly in some instances. Reading her books, she's made many NORMAL suggestions on how to build up a fulfilling sense of worship.

At no time am I saying the philosophy she propagates isn't ridiculous. WHat I'm debating on is the knowledge there in.

Just because some one is misguided (at best), evil (at worst), or simply incomprehensible doesn't make them any less right when they are right. If Galina Krasskova comes up to me and says the sky is blue, I can't very well disagree with her without become a psychotic zealot myself.

Sure, these are extreme examples I'm providing, but very few things START out extreme, we gravitate to these polar opposites one step at a time.

I don't plan to every buy her books ever again at this point; knowledge or no, I don't plan giving money to a woman who is making a mockery of the religion I choose. However, is it wrong to concede that, on some more basic things, she may be right?

Note: By basic things I'm talking about "Here are some source to look to for more information on the Norse pantheon." not "Here's where you buy the saline solution."  

[Collowrath]

Unfortunately, I come across this pretty regularly looking for Slavic Heathen/Rodnover sources. Much of the visible movement online is less pagan and more nationalist. There's also quite a bit of homegrown fascism and Nazism (particularly among the Russians, but it's pretty prevalent in several countries in Europe).

I have very little tolerance (read: none) for racist ideologies, especially genocidal ones, and I find it more than a little ironic and especially repugnant that a popular one among Slavic nationalists is one that specifically targeted their own grandparents for extermination.

Needless to say, I find the spiritual information they might have to be immediately suspect. Sources might be scarce for me, but I'd rather work from a few good sources than from a bunch of racist drivel.  

[Kuroiban]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

I"m not saying everything she says is bad. I'm saying that I cannot have any part of her. No matter how sane some of her notions can be, I cannot ever recommend her, I cannot own any of her writing, I cannot patron her. I disassociate from her. What she says has no bearing on me. She is nothing to me and it is as if she does not exist, except on the occasions I am forced to speak against her.

Understood.

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Moreover, I hold that she's not preaching Norse Recon. Oh, she thinks she is, but she's not. The Gods she's working with are not mine, and to insinuate such is an insult. This is the same route Freya Aswynn takes and whole heartedly agree with it. She blasphemes my God to the extent that she claims Odhinn makes her a sexual predator. I don't know what God she's talking to, but that's not Odhinn. She thinks Odhinn wants her to be his BDSM wife. I don't know what God she's talking to, but that's not Odhinn. She dares to call herself a warrior for this. She dares to say she walks the warrior's path. I would love to see her dropped in the middle of a warzone just to show her how wrong she is. There is not a curse strong enough or an emotion violent enough to describe what I feel for her. I'm fairly certain I could never be in her presence without doing something that would get me arrested.

Just so we're fundamentally clear here, I meant no offense by anything I said. If I didn't make it clear in the previous post, I don't think she's on any right track in any way, or follows a path similar to the one either of us follow. I was making the argument for purposes of being a devil's advocate in one sense, and to answer a question I honestly had in another.

Celeblin Galadeneryn

This isn't a case of throwing out Mengele's research because of his methods, it's a case of recognising that Galina Krasskova is in no state to be teaching anyone anything and shouldn't ever be placed in a position of authority where she can do so, because she will use that authority to abuse people, physically, emotionally, and mentally.

I think Galina does teach in one sense, and a have a quote that I'm going to have to paraphrase (stupid Google not helping me today) as my reasoning

Albert Einstein, at some point (I think), Said or

We should all prove to serve as some sort of example, of what to avoid if one can't be the other sort

I think Galina serves an educational purpose, though very accidentally. I would, flat out, NEVER have suspected her as being anything but a "little flighty" til I read some of the accounts of what she purports to be truth.

She presents herself as well spoken, well educated, and well researched. All of the creepy stuff stays out of her books. It's not like SRW, who shows herself to be batty from page 1 of her insipid and prejudiced bunk. Krasskova displays herself well enough to be recommended without a bat of an eye when someone doesn't know any better...and it's a case where it's fairly easy not to know better. Up until know, I would have never considered googling the crap out of every author I read just to make sure this wasn't what I was reading

I'm saving my Krasskova books I think. Not because I want them as reference, and I'm certainly not going to buy anymore. However, if I ever find myself in a position to teach someone else about anything from Norse Recon to just basic principles off researching for anything Recon at all, I'm pulling out what I have, and asking them to read that. Then I'm pulling out Krasskova's more darker stuff that she purports when people aren't paying attention. I think seeing these two things can come from the same person teaches a VERY valuable lesson about double checking references and resources.

Celeblin Galadeneryn

I'm sure she can piece together some logic on somethings. However what she's done is so unforgivable I can't give her the time of day.

Zero tolerance.

Zero tolerance for her actions. Zero support for her work. No questions asked. For some reason, however, I find the need to find something of worth in the things I encounter. I'm not sure if it's a character flaw or a quirky sense of optimism, but I always find myself wanting to find a redeeming quality to the banal and shitty.

Not to redeem her mind you. Just to find something that makes it useful to others....but I digress.

Collowrath

Unfortunately, I come across this pretty regularly looking for Slavic Heathen/Rodnover sources. Much of the visible movement online is less pagan and more nationalist. There's also quite a bit of homegrown fascism and Nazism (particularly among the Russians, but it's pretty prevalent in several countries in Europe).

I have very little tolerance (read: none) for racist ideologies, especially genocidal ones, and I find it more than a little ironic and especially repugnant that a popular one among Slavic nationalists is one that specifically targeted their own grandparents for extermination.

Needless to say, I find the spiritual information they might have to be immediately suspect. Sources might be scarce for me, but I'd rather work from a few good sources than from a bunch of racist drivel.

I understand and sympathize completely.

Norse Recon/Asatru has it's share of that craziness too unfortunately. I'm almost afraid to look up stuff online because I don't want to encounter that particular element, both the people who propagate the philosophy, and those who use it as fuel to stoke fires of misunderstanding.

I find it darkly ironic that the actions of a bunch of prejudiced yahoos is used to rationalize a preexisting prejudice against the people who want nothing to do with the first group at all.undefined

EDIT:

I did a little more research, and finally found the exact quote I was looking for...

Albert Einstein ACTUALLY Said or

The only rational way of educating a child is to be an example – of what to avoid, if one can’t be the other sort.

Not exactly the same, but I believe the premise I was going by stands true.  

[Kuroiban]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

You haven't offended me. Galina Krasskova has. She drives me into a slavering rage, I admit it.

Good, just wanted to be sure.

Celeblin Galadeneryn

I can't even defend her enough to say she's worth serving as a lesson because no one should have gone through any of that, and if they did, that person should have gone to jail for it.

I won't debate that GK needs a few ordeal of her own....like maybe a lawsuit and incarceration. What I will debate is not using her as a lesson.

Galina doesn't come out saying "I'm a psychotic twit". Judgeing her just from her books, she seems stable, and that scares the piss out of me. I can think of no better use for GK then using her to educate others on how duplicitous, malevolent, and dark people can be in the name of their "religion"....and how easy they can appear to be non-threatening.

Hell, in Essential Asatru, Paxton recomends GK by name three times. I don't think she had any clue that Krasskova was the way she was. If she can fool an established source and authoress..who CAN'T she fool?

I don't mean to use her as a teaching tool to give her a voice; I mean to use her a teaching tool to take that voice away. Not just from her either; from anyone who'd use "religion" as a tool for abuse.

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Serving as an example is why I do what I do concerning Krasskova. I'm determined to serve as the example of someone not putting up in that bullshit. The only thing I could ever say about her to someone I'm teaching is that just because she's total ******** doesn't mean everything she says is wrong, but that's still not a very good reason to use her work when she's really not one of kind. Like I said, we have better.

I'm not looking at her to provide me with anything of value, other then her lunacy. For basic knowledge, yes I can do better. I don't want her for basic knowledge.

I don't want to put her on a pedestal, or give her voice reach. I want to educate people that predators like her exist, and they need to defend themselves against them.

I honestly thing that does the victims better service (preventing people from walking down those same roads on the pretense of seeking), rather then closing my eyes to her outright, but your mileage may vary.  

[Synnthetika]

The way I feel about it?

If Krasskova is correct about fundamental things (I say "if" because I've never read her books), then those fundamental things should be available elsewhere.

It may seem harsh, but Krasskova is a predator. When people in the Northern Tradition abstain from medical treatment because "Odin told me so," and that information comes from either Krasskova or Kaldera, then no, I would not recommend her books or read them even for basic information. I wouldn't do it because of the danger factor. Because if someone needs to know fundamental information, they may be a bit impressionable. Obviously this depends on how well you know the person. If I knew someone and they knew how to use a salt shaker real well and how to keep themselves safe from Krasskova's cult (I use this word because of how Margot Adler has defined/identified cults), I would tell them the whole story and then that her books contain fundamental information. Then they can make a informed decision about whether or not they are comfortable reading it.
If the person is not mature or ready to identify bullshit from sanity, or I don't know them, I wouldn't even mention her books. I would probably mention Krasskova and what occurred in the Northern Tradition, depending on the situation (if it is someone looking to find out more about Norse Paganism or if it is someone who's just looking for a paper or something).

Bottom line: If an author does something absolutely heinous that fits no place in the tradition they are trying to claim it is, they loose their authority over that tradition as they are no longer practicing that tradition.  

[Kuroiban]

Synnthetika

The way I feel about it?

If Krasskova is correct about fundamental things (I say "if" because I've never read her books), then those fundamental things should be available elsewhere.

It may seem harsh, but Krasskova is a predator. When people in the Northern Tradition abstain from medical treatment because "Odin told me so," and that information comes from either Krasskova or Kaldera, then no, I would not recommend her books or read them even for basic information. I wouldn't do it because of the danger factor. Because if someone needs to know fundamental information, they may be a bit impressionable. Obviously this depends on how well you know the person. If I knew someone and they knew how to use a salt shaker real well and how to keep themselves safe from Krasskova's cult (I use this word because of how Margot Adler has defined/identified cults), I would tell them the whole story and then that her books contain fundamental information. Then they can make a informed decision about whether or not they are comfortable reading it.
If the person is not mature or ready to identify bullshit from sanity, or I don't know them, I wouldn't even mention her books. I would probably mention Krasskova and what occurred in the Northern Tradition, depending on the situation (if it is someone looking to find out more about Norse Paganism or if it is someone who's just looking for a paper or something).

Bottom line: If an author does something absolutely heinous that fits no place in the tradition they are trying to claim it is, they loose their authority over that tradition as they are no longer practicing that tradition.

I agree.

I have no intention of using Krasskova for anything other then a cautionary tale. I think she is a GREAT example of what a wolf in sheep's clothing looks and acts like.  

[Ishtar Shakti]

Well I've never been one to believe all of anything anyone ever wrote as people all have personal bias'. How strong those bias' are in opposition to how the world seems to be can arguably determine whether or not I would consider them sane.

I have always had a standard that people have reasons, however skewed those reasons may be, for their beliefs. So I take into account what seems to correspond to my knowledge of the world. I take what seems relevant or to make sense. I make note of parts of it that don't mesh well. That seem extraneous. I try to take note of their bias' and beliefs and how they are shown through their works. I try to wheedle out just plane falsehoods.

I also take into account under what circumstances they may have been mistaken what may have caused the mistakes.

I had a friend who was well... on the other side of batty but they actually had senses. They could pick up on information and then inevitably they would play scramblaise with it and mess most of it up. I payed very close attention to how they would skew information. What they were actually trust worthy reading and what they weren't. Etc.

I've found that this works with alot of psychics though. Due to the nature or reality (as far as I see it) its very easy to let your personal bias skew your information and also due to a lack of structure or uniform nature to the science of studying metaphysics there isn't very much in place that can catch and correct the misleading information. Generally speaking I try to correct what I can. I try to inform people when I see the monster bias looming around the corner and I try to keep track of all of my bias' as well and how they are affecting my decisions and senses. Also the nature and structure of my beliefs.

Sooo... in short... you try to find the damn baby and save it from drowning in the mucky muck.

Though I can be Lazy sometimes and in cases where I am not prepared to do a s**t ton of work I just play avoidance therapy until I can.

Avoidance therapy AKA I avoid it till I can deal with it

P.S. I don't like relying on books for information. I like hands on experiential knowledge. I have not read anything by the author you've mentioned. I've found almost everything I have bothered to read had elements of truth in it what people built with that is on them?  

[Kuroiban]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Ahhh, I thought you were saying you were going to use her explanations where they are correct, put the point out what a ******** abuser piece of s**t she is. My apologies.

No harm done. 3nodding  

[AniMajor]

Ishtar Shakti

I've found that this works with alot of psychics though. Due to the nature or reality (as far as I see it) its very easy to let your personal bias skew your information and also due to a lack of structure or uniform nature to the science of studying metaphysics there isn't very much in place that can catch and correct the misleading information. Generally speaking I try to correct what I can. I try to inform people when I see the monster bias looming around the corner and I try to keep track of all of my bias' as well and how they are affecting my decisions and senses. Also the nature and structure of my beliefs.

I've also noticed there's a lot of issues with information about psychics or things of that nature, although I hope that it's not the same kind of issues that Kuroiban and Celeblin were talking about.

With psychics, they're always talking about spirit guides and aura cleansing and a lot of new-age fluff. Which is fine (if terribly fluffy), but what really bothers me is the whole "keep an open mind" or "well, let's not rule anything out" attitude that a lot of them have that leads people to ignore real, physical problems and allows people to create their own little Mr. Dark fantasies and worse, drag others into it.

Instead of stepping back and evaluating a situation where a person could be suffering severely from an illness, you get a lot of "oh, you need to cleanse your chakras" or "sometimes demons can cause things like hallucinations and depression" instead of a "maybe this is something you should see a doctor about".