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 Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:33 am
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In Medias Res IV rmcdra In Medias Res IV rmcdra Performing miracles was something common during that time. Of course no one was going to write about them. I mean Simon Magus was on such person. There were healers and miracle workers in temples dedicated to other Gods. I mean what historian would make a record of every doctor that exists today? If anything the miracles were probably included in the Gospels to provide legitimacy to the budding religion. Be that as it may though, the absence of evidence is not evidence. Now here's the proof I'm going to ask for. Provide me with writings from the time period in question dismissing Jesus as a myth. There are none, but calling something a myth doesn't mean that it's not true. Do I believe Christianity is a myth? Yes, I do. Do I believe Judaism is a myth? Absolutely, but we are allowed to believe in our mythology. So please, when I say myth, don't think I am negating something. But, are there writings, outside of say Lucretius, that say the Imperial Cult is a myth? Does that make Minerva real? A god cannot be proven or disproven and you know that. That's not what I'm asking though, I'm not talking about his Godhood. Most of the early writings of Yeshua say he was a man. The earliest manuscripts of Mark make no claim to him being God. Him being God was a later invention to support a particular theological stance from what I understand in my studies. I am aware of that but I wanted to see what you stance was regarding myth. As for Yeshua as a historic figure, we lack the evidence to dismiss his existence, though most of the history that does exist about him is embellished with the mythology. There had to be a reason why writings and stories about him would have even started in the first place. Any theories on that I would be happy to hear. I'm actually agnostic to his existence though I have beliefs that he did exist historically in some form. I think that what Jesus' message was is not what it is today. I think he was a rabbi who wanted to change the face of Judaism and bring gentiles back to monotheism. There are records of early Noachides and it IS a Jew's job to bring HaShem to the gentiles. I think Jesus gave a lot of hope to a lot of different people who needed it at the time. I think if he said he was the son of G-d, he meant it just as Adam, Avraham, Moses, and Noah are the son of G-d. Early Christianity was about community and helping people like them, the lower classes of the Roman empire. I don't see how people claiming Jesus was G-d is any different than an Imperator claiming lineage to say Romulus and Remus or Ares, or the Chabad claiming that their late rebbe is actually the moshiach. Early Christianity is a fantastic concept. If Christianity today was focussing on community, spreading love, hope, peace, happiness, and tolerance for other nations and religions... it would still be a great religion. I don't care about the historicity of Jesus, for all we know, he could have had a different name (not Yashua, for the love of Hashem), I care about the validity of his divinity. Let's be honest, I attack Judaism with as much gusto as I do Christianity but no one has seemed to have paid attention to how many times I have attacked the Chassidim or have called them sexist, amongst other things.
Now we hit the head of the issue ^^. You've said all you need to say to me as have I. |
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:05 pm
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In Medias Res IV This is a list of people who lived during, or within a century of Jesus' life, how come none of them wrote about Jesus? Josephus Philo-Judææus Seneca Pliny Elder Arrian Petronius Dion Pruseus Paterculus Suetonius Juvenal Martial Persius Plutarch Pliny Younger Tacitus Justus of Tiberius Apollonius Quintilian Lucanus Epictetus Hermogones Silius Italicus Statius Ptolemy Appian Phlegon Phæædrus Valerius Maximus Lucian Pausanias Florus Lucius Quintius Curtius Aulus Gellius Dio Chrysostom Columella Valerius Flaccus Damis Favorinus Lysias Pomponius Mela Appion of Alexandria Theon of Smyrna
Wow, I had NO idea the world was so underpopulated back then...
Seriously, though, Christianity took a while to grow sufficiently from the backwater province of its origin to be 'important' in the Roman Empire.
Jesus DIDN'T make a huge impact outside of Israel. Instead, He made sure to remain a wandering rabbi who denied that He had come to take earthly power. Once His followers became a force to reckon with within Roman society at large, then yes, Roman historians such as Pliny the Younger began writing about them. |
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 3:22 pm
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Nebulance In Medias Res IV This is a list of people who lived during, or within a century of Jesus' life, how come none of them wrote about Jesus? Josephus Philo-Judææus Seneca Pliny Elder Arrian Petronius Dion Pruseus Paterculus Suetonius Juvenal Martial Persius Plutarch Pliny Younger Tacitus Justus of Tiberius Apollonius Quintilian Lucanus Epictetus Hermogones Silius Italicus Statius Ptolemy Appian Phlegon Phæædrus Valerius Maximus Lucian Pausanias Florus Lucius Quintius Curtius Aulus Gellius Dio Chrysostom Columella Valerius Flaccus Damis Favorinus Lysias Pomponius Mela Appion of Alexandria Theon of Smyrna Wow, I had NO idea the world was so underpopulated back then... Seriously, though, Christianity took a while to grow sufficiently from the backwater province of its origin to be 'important' in the Roman Empire. Jesus DIDN'T make a huge impact outside of Israel. Instead, He made sure to remain a wandering rabbi who denied that He had come to take earthly power. Once His followers became a force to reckon with within Roman society at large, then yes, Roman historians such as Pliny the Younger began writing about them.
There was no such thing as Israel. You're referring to Judea, which was under Rome. Pliny only started to write about them because he was getting fed up with them essentially committing suicide. He was like;
"You Trajan, what do you want me to do with these annoying people who WANT to be fed to lions?"
Jesus fed 5000 right? Why did NO ONE out of 5000 people write about his greatness? |
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:58 pm
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Sanguina Cruenta Chieftain Twilight some of these, called the Dead Sea Scrolls, were saved by the Knights Templar. come on, it's the most popular bit of history there is! constantly abused and embellished, but still able to be cleaned off to find the origional telling to be clear on it if one puts in the little bit of effort to sift through teh hype. The Dead Sea Scrolls didn't contain any gospels written within Jesus's lifetime. We'd certainly have heard about it if they did. The earliest gospel was written about 40 years after Jesus's death, was it not? IMR will know better than I, I think. Quote: Pliny the Elder wrote about him. so did Josephus. of course Ptolemy didn't, he was a devout Pagan! Her point was that if he made such a big impact during his lifetime, people would have written about him whether or not they were Pagan. Obviously he made an impact after his death....
well of COURSE he made an impact after death, I'm Christian and I agree with that, the fact that Jesus' death to this day is seen as martyrdom DEFINETLY increases the chances of someone being saved, I'm not trying to betray my faith or anything, but in religion, martyrdom like that is ALWAYS an attracting force (whether true or not) for the faith to gain followers... |
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Posted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 5:05 pm
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GaleNexus Sanguina Cruenta Chieftain Twilight some of these, called the Dead Sea Scrolls, were saved by the Knights Templar. come on, it's the most popular bit of history there is! constantly abused and embellished, but still able to be cleaned off to find the origional telling to be clear on it if one puts in the little bit of effort to sift through teh hype. The Dead Sea Scrolls didn't contain any gospels written within Jesus's lifetime. We'd certainly have heard about it if they did. The earliest gospel was written about 40 years after Jesus's death, was it not? IMR will know better than I, I think. Quote: Pliny the Elder wrote about him. so did Josephus. of course Ptolemy didn't, he was a devout Pagan! Her point was that if he made such a big impact during his lifetime, people would have written about him whether or not they were Pagan. Obviously he made an impact after his death.... well of COURSE he made an impact after death, I'm Christian and I agree with that, the fact that Jesus' death to this day is seen as martyrdom DEFINETLY increases the chances of someone being saved, I'm not trying to betray my faith or anything, but in religion, martyrdom like that is ALWAYS an attracting force (whether true or not) for the faith to gain followers...
But tens of thousands of people have been executed...
I think you should revert to Islam because of all the Muslims martyring themselves for Allah. |
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Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:05 pm
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Posted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 8:32 pm
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:16 pm
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In Medias Res IV This is a list of people who lived during, or within a century of Jesus' life, how come none of them wrote about Jesus? Josephus Philo-Judææus Seneca Pliny Elder Arrian Petronius Dion Pruseus Paterculus Suetonius Juvenal Martial Persius Plutarch Pliny Younger Tacitus Justus of Tiberius Apollonius Quintilian Lucanus Epictetus Hermogones Silius Italicus Statius Ptolemy Appian Phlegon Phæædrus Valerius Maximus Lucian Pausanias Florus Lucius Quintius Curtius Aulus Gellius Dio Chrysostom Columella Valerius Flaccus Damis Favorinus Lysias Pomponius Mela Appion of Alexandria Theon of Smyrna Now, I'm a Classicist. I study Latin and Roman culture intensively. All of my professors agree that Josephus and Tacitus truly didn't mention Jesus, it was a forgery because the Latin does not flow properly. I read Latin and I too can tell different styles (Cicero is a b***h). I have read writings from many, many of the listed men. So why did no one write about him if he was so important and made such an impact??
What impact do you expect from some Jew being nailed to a cross?
It was also one the farthest flung provinces of the Roman empire and believe it or not communications were not what they are today. I'd also have to ask why any of the writers you mentioned would have an interest in documenting rumours from the middle east regarding miracles attributed to the abrahamic god.
Also bear in mind that many of Jesus's miracles were done in secret, such as the blind man regaining his sight, Lazurus and of course Christ rising from his tomb. |
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:56 pm
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In Medias Res IV GaleNexus Sanguina Cruenta Chieftain Twilight some of these, called the Dead Sea Scrolls, were saved by the Knights Templar. come on, it's the most popular bit of history there is! constantly abused and embellished, but still able to be cleaned off to find the origional telling to be clear on it if one puts in the little bit of effort to sift through teh hype. The Dead Sea Scrolls didn't contain any gospels written within Jesus's lifetime. We'd certainly have heard about it if they did. The earliest gospel was written about 40 years after Jesus's death, was it not? IMR will know better than I, I think. Quote: Pliny the Elder wrote about him. so did Josephus. of course Ptolemy didn't, he was a devout Pagan! Her point was that if he made such a big impact during his lifetime, people would have written about him whether or not they were Pagan. Obviously he made an impact after his death.... well of COURSE he made an impact after death, I'm Christian and I agree with that, the fact that Jesus' death to this day is seen as martyrdom DEFINETLY increases the chances of someone being saved, I'm not trying to betray my faith or anything, but in religion, martyrdom like that is ALWAYS an attracting force (whether true or not) for the faith to gain followers... But tens of thousands of people have been executed... I think you should revert to Islam because of all the Muslims martyring themselves for Allah.
Well of course not, accepting a certain faith/religion/ANYTHING is truly up to you. But you must admit, for the average person trying to look for faith, any matyrdom is attracting. And then again, those were people not divine forces which perished for their beliefs/humanity... |
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:29 pm
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In Medias Res IV Nebulance In Medias Res IV This is a list of people who lived during, or within a century of Jesus' life, how come none of them wrote about Jesus? Josephus Philo-Judææus Seneca Pliny Elder Arrian Petronius Dion Pruseus Paterculus Suetonius Juvenal Martial Persius Plutarch Pliny Younger Tacitus Justus of Tiberius Apollonius Quintilian Lucanus Epictetus Hermogones Silius Italicus Statius Ptolemy Appian Phlegon Phæædrus Valerius Maximus Lucian Pausanias Florus Lucius Quintius Curtius Aulus Gellius Dio Chrysostom Columella Valerius Flaccus Damis Favorinus Lysias Pomponius Mela Appion of Alexandria Theon of Smyrna Wow, I had NO idea the world was so underpopulated back then... Seriously, though, Christianity took a while to grow sufficiently from the backwater province of its origin to be 'important' in the Roman Empire. Jesus DIDN'T make a huge impact outside of Israel. Instead, He made sure to remain a wandering rabbi who denied that He had come to take earthly power. Once His followers became a force to reckon with within Roman society at large, then yes, Roman historians such as Pliny the Younger began writing about them. There was no such thing as Israel. You're referring to Judea, which was under Rome. Pliny only started to write about them because he was getting fed up with them essentially committing suicide. He was like; "You Trajan, what do you want me to do with these annoying people who WANT to be fed to lions?" Jesus fed 5000 right? Why did NO ONE out of 5000 people write about his greatness?
They most indeffinately did write about it. What's funny though, is that through time, most records slowly begin to deteriorate and dissentigrate. The irony of life. We want to know everything about our history, but yet history slowly destroys itself. |
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Posted: Sat Oct 10, 2009 3:40 pm
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