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 Posted: Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:00 pm
I know there are some people in the guild who are pro, or at least semi-pro, and I was wondering, how did you first get into photography as a way to make money?
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:07 pm
It's all about marketing. Plain and simple.
You can do absolutely CRAP photography and still get paid $2,000 to do a wedding (Trust me, I've seen it happen several times and I can even show you examples).
If you have what looks like a real, legitimate and "appealing" business you'll get clients - at least to some degree.
Sure, It's not easy when you're first starting, I can tell you that from my own personal experience. But once you get things going it really starts to open up.
It also depends on what kind of photography you're looking to do.
What's your goal?
Do you wanna be a sports photographer?
Do you wanna work for Getty images? Or some other photography company like that?
Do you wanna be a wedding photographer?
Do you wanna do Fine Art and do gallery shows and have huge 5 - 6ft prints?
Do you wanna do landscape and nature?
How about pets?
How about food and products?
Do you wanna shoot for commercials?
Maybe films?
Stock photography?
There's so many different things... You gotta know what you want to do before you start thinking about being "pro" or something like that.
You also have to know your strengths and weaknesses. Being a wedding photographer is a WHOLE different world from nature or wildlife photography and they both require different things. With wildlife, you need a lot of patience and a lot of knowledge about animals, their behaviors (There's a great book by some people from MIT about animal behavior..) with wedding photography, you've gotta be quick on your feet, ready to shoot all the time, be able to deal with changing lighting and situations all the time and so much more.
Here's an example, if you're a professional wildlife photographer chances are you'll spend an entire day sitting inside a hide (If you don't know what that is it's basically a very small tent you sit inside of... For the lack of a more in depth and detailed description) by yourself, making no sound or noise at all just for that one hour or so in the coming days to get that shot of whatever animal it might be. What I just mentioned is nothing out of the ordinary for wildlife photographers, they do it all the time. It requires a lot of patience, and a lot of self discipline..
But on the flip side is wedding photography, it's usually rather fast paced, you've gotta be able to do many different styles of photography. I'm talking about portraits, product photography, food, maybe some nature photos if the place you're shooting at is nice looking, you've gotta be able to work with usually very un"camera" friendly locations and usually pretty low light, you've gotta be able to shoot hundreds of pictures in just a few hours. You're usually on your feet the entire wedding, moving here and there, taking photos of everything and everyone. But not getting in the way of people and disrupting anything..
Or you can even talk about sports photography.. Which (Usually) is the most costly. Because you need a good, long lens and you're talking about getting either a 300 2.8 or a 400 2.8 lens, that's expensive.
Very.
Expensive.
On top of that you need a good camera, something fast, maybe you'll have one or two 1d mk3's.
There's a lot out there... You have to find what works for you. Some people can't stand wedding photography, some people can't stand fashion photography. Find what works for you, focus on it, grow and learn.
I also think probably the TWO biggest things a photographer needs in order to be successful are people skills and good money management.
If you don't have people skills that REALLY limits you in what you can do. Trust me. If you don't have people skills either things will be EXTREMELY hard for you or they just will NOT work out at all.
Especially if you're doing corporate or executive photos. It is so important, especially since a lot of them (haha, especially some people at Microsoft... Long story) think it's a joke, a waste of time, whatever you know? Who cares, it doesn't matter. Etc etc etc. It's very important to be able to work with someone who thinks or feels that way.
And money management.. Because when you're running a business, if you're not good with that... You might as well kiss your business goodbye. Especially nowadays in this economy... More so with photography than most other businesses. Because lets face it, photography and lighting equipment is freakin' EXPENSIVE.
Basically, to get things going... find some small, local things you can do. Take good, quality photos. DO NOT rip people off and nickle and dime them to death. Once you do a few shoots, events, etc. and have your portfolio building up try doing some things like family shoots, or senior pictures.. Then if you're able move onto things like weddings, etc.
It's all about building blocks and it can be slow... Extremely slow.
And photography isn't exactly a "secure" job. I mean it's easily foreseeable that you might go an entire month without having any shoots and making no money. Nothing's guaranteed, I can guarantee that.
Most photographers you'll meet (At least, in my personal experience) are usually horrible and awful people. Sure you'll meet some nice ones here and there but for the most part... They're going to be stuck up, egotistic, selfish, extremely self centered and the occasional know it all who can't back up anything he says with any REAL work.
They're pretty crappy to be honest, at least when you get into the "professional" world. Like I said, there's good ones but I'd say it's about a good 3 or 4:1 ratio of bad to good ones you'll meet. But then again, it also depends on where you live and what you do and all that jazz.
But who knows, maybe take some photos and take them to a local newspaper and see what they think. An old friend of mine (He's in his 50's now) told me about how he got started, he was doing photography with a friend, they started out doing high school photos, prom's, senior pics, then they started doing photography for newspapers, they got recognized by some bigger papers and then they started doing stuff for AP, then they started doing weddings, etc etc etc
But as far as my personal story into photography... Well I started out going to college for it and it wasn't for me, for so many reasons. I hated the school, I hated sitting around in classrooms. I left and I started going out doing photography. At first it was landscapes and wildlife.. Then I started doing shoots with people. I'd get some friends together and we'd have a shoot, it was fun. Then I started doing senior pictures, birthday parties, family portraits, and little sport events (Like high school soccer games or whatever) then I did a little bit of corporate and executive photos, and I dabbled in a little bit of journalism and editorial photography... and then I started doing some photos for my church and then I wound up doing wedding photography..
So... Anyways I have to go. I'm late haha but I could talk about this for hours. There's lots to talk about, lots of little details and crazy little stories..
But really, a large part of it is just marketing. That's what it mainly comes down to in todays world, if you can market yourself and your business in a good, professional way, that's probably a quarter to half the battle right there.
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:36 pm
wow, that is a lot of good advice that I really will keep in mind!
I kind of figured that photography couldn't be a career on its own unless you get really famous. You made me realize though, that I really need to brush up on my people skills (in the real word, I am SO SHY!) because I think I like taking pictures of people. (now that I think of it, that was a big reason why the family pictures I did a little while ago turned out a little washed out...)
Thank you for always being so kind and helpful! I love that there are nice people on the internet! *just got out of an argument with a flamer*
you> cool
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:06 pm
Well don't have to be "famous" to have it as a career. I mean, there's two main types of photographers (IMO).
You've got the really rich, famous ones. IE. You sell a photo for... $20,000, etc.
And you've got the business owner. So you're doing whatever, family shoots for $500, weddings for $1500, whatever....
If you have a business, run it well and give high quality products and don't rip people off... not to mention treat people well, be honest and upfront.. Blah blah blah, common sense stuff.. you're going to usually do pretty well.
And you can make a living off of that pretty easily. It's just GETTING to that point is rather difficult. Now... Will you be making 6 figures? Unlikely.. But can you live off of it, sure! Unless you're an idiot when it comes to money. LOL
Just be smart... And yes, people skills... Sooooo important smile
There's so much I have to say but I gotta get back to work. I'll be back in... 5 or 6 hours. Woo!
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Posted: Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:44 pm
woo! busy busy! sweatdrop
I think at this point I'll start working on my people skills and building up my portfolio. . . sweatdrop
(wasn't kidding about being shy)
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Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2009 11:55 am
I'm really finding it tough getting photos shown at galleries because of 2 issues. I can't afford to get my photos printed huge, mounted and framed for show and I don't know how to get the attention of a gallery owner who would put my stuff up! Any advice there?
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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:18 am
Phoenixliv I'm really finding it tough getting photos shown at galleries because of 2 issues. I can't afford to get my photos printed huge, mounted and framed for show and I don't know how to get the attention of a gallery owner who would put my stuff up! Any advice there? Hah. Good luck with that. There isn't much you can do, either two things will happen if you keep pursuing that. 1. He'll give in after you annoy him enough (Unlikely, but possible) or 2. He'll just completely shut you out and never give you another look. That being said, if you're talking about "HUGE" prints, you're talking about stuff taken from at least a medium format camera like a hasselblad, mamiya, or phase one.. Most of the "huge" prints from fine art galleries are taken with at least a 50mp camera. Or if you go into (Most) Kay jewlery stores, usually they have some wedding type photos that are also in the "huge" category. They're like 5, 6ft tall. Once again, you're looking at that 50mp range. Those cameras generally cost around $50,000. You can buy different backs for them which is SEPARATE from the camera itself. Now if you're talking about smaller prints, lets say... 20 or 30 inches, no big whoop. The best and cheapest thing you could try is getting Genuine Fractals by onOne. It's rather pricey, but not as expensive as a hasselblad lol. But it does rather nicely for enlargements, I've enlarged prints up to 300% and have had usable results. Of course', it all depends on your camera and the photo itself. But GF is by far the best enlargement method around today, imo. Now that being said.. If you have your photo already, and you're happy with it but you just want it to be printed large. That's a different story, different places charge different rates. Kinkos, MPIX, whatever. They're all different but you don't need a huge print and my advice is, don't. Unless you have the gear that will give a pleasing result at those larger prints all you're doing is wasting your money. I don't know if you've ever printed anything larger than lets say just an 8.5x11 but when you start getting into the 20, 30" prints... You really do need as much detail as you can because I tell you what, if it's out of focus, or there just isn't enough detail in there almost no one will dish out any sort of reasonable cash for it. Now that doesn't mean you need a 5dmk2, or d3x.. but shooting with an 8, 10, 12mp camera simply will NOT give you the detail you need for the larger prints. Unless you're shooting with something like a d3, d700, etc.. But that's for a whole different story. See, let me explain something really quick. I was going to write up a little "Basic photography 101" thing about "megapixles". People always yap about how the more mp the better, or at least they used to. It seems to be changing nowadays (I think people are starting to finally get their heads out of their butts and learn a things or two)... Basically all that MP does is determine the SIZE of the image. So an 8mp camera might be putting out an image with a size of 2304 x 3456 or a 21mp camera will be dishing out a whopping 5616 x 3744 while something like a medium format camera might be hitting home runs with an amazing 7812 x 6400 at like 50mp. So what does all that mean? In layman's terms, basically that means that the larger the number, the larger the print you can put out. You DO get more detail with more megapixel's. If anyone wants to argue this they obviously have never used, or worked with anything that's been shot with a medium format camera. That being said, most people don't need all the resolution of higher mp cameras like if someone's just rushing in to buy a sony a900 because it has "24.6 MP" chances are... they probably won't be needing all that resolution. So for most people, MP doesn't matter. For someone who's going to be making large prints, they do.
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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:32 am
Continuing on (Just posted that last one because if the power goes out, at least all that is said and done) what you could try to do is try GF (The trial slaps this stupid "gf" watermark everywhere, so don't think you can just do that lol) but I would recommended trying it, scale up one of your fav photos, 300, 400, 500%.. and see how they look and how it feels to you. I'd suggest printing them out, however that may be a very costly experiment.
One thing I'd do is that I'd start printing out a portion of a photo with quite a bit of detail. Have just a little bit of it print and as it's printing, cancel the print. So it'll just print out that little area with the detail. Do that on different scales, see how they match up. I hope that makes sense.
Anyways.. back on topic, honestly what I would do if I was in your position. Would first, GF and see how large I can make the print without losing too much detail, if you can make it 300% larger, AWESOME. If not, oh well.
Then I would try to find someone who knows the person who hosts the gallery, find someone to be basically, a middle man for you. That might be rather difficult, or not. You could just go to some of the shows, ask people around there if they know "Mr. SuchandSuch". I wouldn't rush into it, I'd introduce myself, talk a little about the gallery (Not your photos however) and then maybe a few days later give that person a call and see if you can get things rolling. It can be difficult depending on the person, which is why you don't just want 1 haha
I used to use people as "middle mans" all the time and I'll tell you what, sometimes it just worked miracles. It might work, it might not. But it's worth a try.
You could try to do something, talk to the owner and make a deal with him, tell him that if he puts up your work... You'll give him 50% of the money for the first... However many, half a dozen, or dozen prints. Then afterwards hopefully he doesn't just use you but then you can regularly have your prints up there. Or at least in someway have something that might benefit him even more. It might not be cash, he might not care about that (Crazy, I know). Maybe he wants.... Some sort of advertising or promotional thing. Who knows, but making deals will make you friends. (Or enemies if youre not careful! lol)
IF that still doesn't work, I'd just look some place else. Some people are just so stuck up or full of this false sense of "self worth" that for whatever reason they think that you're just so much more lower than them. Not worth your time or energy and they simply do NOT want anything to do with you.
In that case, leave. Find some place else. Move on.
Also. Common sense, if you wanna get his attention, find out what kind of stuff he puts up in the first place (I assume you already know). If you're taking portraits to a guy that ONLY puts up landscapes and nature, I doubt you'll get anything. If you're putting up photos of birds and bees and the guy puts up prints of old men and women or prints of cars...
I mean I know they don't just put up (Usually) just ONE type of photo, but you should get the general idea of what im talking about. If it's not something in his realm, he probably won't be interested.
Hope that helps. Now I'm tired and late and I've gotta get up and do some shoots tomorrow. Woo! Go tom go!
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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 12:36 am
Oh and really quick...
If you're really making an effort, like REALLY, not just saying, or kidding yourself into thinking you are (It might sound mean, but it happens to most of us at one certain point or time. Maybe not in this specific case "photography", but just in general).. chances are (If he's a decent person) he'll give you the time of day to at least listen to you and have a conversation about it.
If all you do is give him a call every once and a while, maybe once every few weeks and have a quick 15 - 20 second phone call and you're not clear, concise, direct and honest.... I wouldn't expect much cooperation from someone. You really have to work at it, make an effort and put your foot forward cause otherwise, it's just not gonna go well.
Hope it makes sense, I'm gonna go pass out now.
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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 4:21 pm
aww, you work so hard for us! heart
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Posted: Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:26 pm
lol thanks.
What's important though, no matter how difficult it might be... If you really want to get into the gallery world.. Do what you can to get your foot in there. Once you're in there and doing it, it'll be easier and open up a lot of other options for you and hopefully, you'll make a little cash.
Hope it helps....
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Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 9:34 pm
Mmm... wedding photography. It's where the money's at. LOL!
My favorite wedding photographer is also my friend's Uncle so it's easy for me to second shoot events with him. http://www.armindefiesta.com/
What I also find very useful for networking is joining other photography sites in your state (or better yet, your area). I've met up with a lot of Virginia, DC, MD photogs. We shoot together, and learn from each other.
I started out as a very shy photographer too. I was too shy to even bring out my camera around but having other photographers around me really helped build up my comfort level. Now when I get bored, I do some street portraits. I ask people if I can take their portrait.
http://strobist.blogspot.com/2009/07/wired-video-street-portraiture.html
If you live around my area and is interested in shooting with me, feel free to drop me a line. smile
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Posted: Tue Aug 25, 2009 10:39 pm
Eh, I've never made much money off of wedding photography but that's mainly because I don't like to rip people off. I mean sure it can be quite a bit of work but more often than not I've found that a lot of wedding photographers are such awful people...
Especially the ones who listen to people like Gary Fong. I HATE that guy. He had this dvd out, I'm sure you can still get it, a while back called how to get rich with photography or some BS. Anyways one thing he mentions is basically doing the wedding, for a reasonable price but then basically holding the photos and saying that unless they pay for a wedding album (That's where he makes the money, you're talking $1000 - $2000+) he won't give you any photos and to make matters worse, the photos will EXPIRE if they (the client) don't order the pictures within a certain time frame, just putting more pressure on the client. I mean come on. Seriously? I hate that guy.
That being said... You can still make quite a bit of money nicely... My friend does weddings for around $1,000 more or less and she'll do 2 or 3 weddings in a month. So it can be nice money, but I seriously hate people who do things like that. It pisses me off.
That being said, yes networking is great and it can be so useful, especially if it's late at night and you just did a shoot and oh.. Lets say the client wants 70 prints the next morning and one of your friends has a nice lab you can use. Little things like that make any effort worth it, it's a life saver sometimes.
www.modelmayhem.com is good too, you can find some models, other photographers. Crap like that, just be aware there's a lot of n***s on the site. Some of the people on there are incredibly rude and stuck up, but hey that's the photography world for you.
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:15 pm
Kineyas If you live around my area and is interested in shooting with me, feel free to drop me a line. smile I live on the Coast of CA. cilayin Especially the ones who listen to people like Gary Fong. I HATE that guy. He had this dvd out, I'm sure you can still get it, a while back called how to get rich with photography or some BS. Anyways one thing he mentions is basically doing the wedding, for a reasonable price but then basically holding the photos and saying that unless they pay for a wedding album (That's where he makes the money, you're talking $1000 - $2000+) he won't give you any photos and to make matters worse, the photos will EXPIRE if they (the client) don't order the pictures within a certain time frame, just putting more pressure on the client. I mean come on. Seriously? I hate that guy. oh my god...That is so ridiculous! these people just got married, and he is trying to hold the photos over their heads like that!? Lets get him Cilayin. twisted
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Posted: Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:18 pm
lol ya, it's pretty awful. I believe the words he used was something like, it's not for the "emotionally sensitive photographer" or something like that.
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