oh my god

[Neferet -House of Night-]

Quote:

Please, Christians, please stop using Pascals wager. It has the very problem it has had since Old Blaise first uttered it, and I for one am getting tired of explaining them over and over again. Oh but wait, lemme guess: none of you know what I'm talking about. You've all been taught how to use this argument, without ever actually being told what its called. Alright, I'll explain it. I'll explain Blaise Pascal's Wager and its various problems...again.

This is the argument upon which you rely when you ask an atheist, "What if you're wrong? Can you really afford to take the chance?" Pascal reasoned that the believer has everything to gain, if right, and nothing to lose, if wrong; while the non-believer has nothing to gain, if right, and everything to lose, if wrong. So clearly, the belief is the safer gamble and this is reason enough to believe.

The most leering problem with this, in my opinion, is what's called a "false dichotomy", that is, it presents as a choice between two options what is actually a choice between many more than that. Observe that this is not an argument that you can use with Muslims, because they can just as easily use it with you. Imagine if you say to a Muslim, "What if you're wrong for not being a Christian? Can you afford to take the risk?" You cannot use this with them, because if you do, you'll get races of questions that surely none of them will hesitate to point out: "What if YOU are wrong for not being Muslim? Can YOU afford to take the risk?"

We all take the risk of being mistaken. We all take the risk of being wrong. It's unavoidable. So yes, if heaven exists, and is a "Christian-Only" zone, all atheists are screwed; so are all Muslims. If, on the other hand, heaven exists, and is a "Muslim-Only" zone, all atheists are likewise screwed, and so are all Christians.

What if, on the other hand, the HINDUS have it right and heaven does not exist, but reincarnation takes place which is guided by karma, which is determined by among other things: Hindu beliefs. Well, in this case, atheists, Christians, and Muslims are all doomed to be reincarnated into lesser forms and possibly several times over. Now what if, after you die, you meet Thor, of Ancient Norway, who informs you that because you lived your entire life, without believing in him and demonstrating that belief by the occasional offering of ram's blood, in spite of the fact that he gave you an entire life to come to the right set of beliefs, you are doomed to wallow for eternity in the underworld. Can you afford to take the chance of being mistaken THERE? Clearly, you will not be swayed by Pascal's wager. Why should we be?

Now let's have a look at what you're proposing: What is a good reason to believe something? Well, I believe I'm sitting at a desk. I can see it. I can touch it. If I knock on it, I can even hear it. That's 3 of my 5 senses on which it registers and all 3 agree that it exists, that it is right here, and that it is made of wood. That is a good basis for believing in the desk's existence: its location relative to me, and its composition. Now, yes, I am human, and this is not lost on me. Each of my senses could be mistaken. And that being the case, the input from any of my senses could be incorrect and I am aware of that. But if all my senses are incorrect, they probably will not agree. Since the odds of 2 senses being mistaken about the very same detail in the very same way at the very same time are too small for me to evaluate. Reality is internally consistent. The most firmly based conclusions in one field of science, are made all the more likely, all the more firmly based, by the tendency to agree with the most firmly based conclusions in other fields of science. And besides, one who cannot trust one's senses and faculties can trust nothing.

Turning to a book for guidance, depends on one's eyes being able to see it accurately, and once's brain being able to interpret it accurately. So if the possibility of one's faulty senses and faculties is a problem for me, it is likewise a problem for you.

What I am suggesting is belief established on empirical, and/or rational bases. What you are proposing here is belief as a result of a risk/benefit analysis. It's belief "just in case". You are choosing to believe with the very same mentality with which you would choose to pay your auto insurance. You're only hedging your bets. It is a petty being who asks for belief on such a basis and it is a petty believer who provides it.

Ah, but what if I am mistaken? What if I am, in fact, destined to spend eternity being tortured for my failure to adapt just the right beliefs? Well, then the God you speak of is a brutal, intolerant tyrant and I will gladly spend eternity saying so, even if I must do it from hell.

Oh but wait... I can use Pascal's wager too. What if there's no afterlife? What if the only way to live .. death is in the impact one has on the world while one is here? Well, that means that all the money that found its way from your pocket to the collection plate over the years, all that money which could've been spent providing food, shelter, hygiene supplies and educational materials for the needy, all those finances which could've been spent proliferating education and solvency and eroding squaller, instead went into packing the pastor's wardrobe with even more silk, and helping mega-churches get bigger, fancier, shinier, and more numerous.

If there is no afterlife, if there is no other life, then YOU have wasted this one palpable, undeniable existence being conned on a daily basis. If there is no afterlife, YOU will never know, which means you will never have the chance to confront the parties who conned you or to warn others. These are the consequences if the atheists are right. Which risk would you rather take?

The above is a blog that my friend had. Please read it.  

[SloanSage]

Dark Angel Rai

SloanSage

Dark Angel Rai

SloanSage

Dark Angel Rai

ummm there are more than one type of Satanist. The majority of Satanists are Lavaeyan. And Lavaeyan Satanists don't actually do half the things in the Satanic Bible, it's satire, and it's to scare the Christians. Do a little more research on it before spewing more bs.

Well, apparently the researchers and the Satanist on the documentary I watched the other were totally wrong then.

I tend to watch the History Channel, and during any holiday week, they have specials on that event or furniture surrounding it. And for the past month they have been doing things that concern Satanists, the origins of Halloween, Demons, the Devil, and things involving central Halloween figures (Frankestien, Dracula... stuff like that). I saw a few concerning Satan and Satanists. But apparently they are wrong. Sorry.

Not everything on TV is true even if it's on the History channel. I'm friends with a few Satanists. It's best to ask actual Satanists about their religion rather than to believe what some idiot says on TV.

I don't necessarily take EVERYTHING they say, but I kin of compare what they do on the History Channel, the History International Channel (which tends to be fuller of different things... such as not always going with the trends in what they research and show at certain times), as well as numerous Discovery Channel type channels. so, it is not really only the History Channel I get my info from, I get it from other places too. and usually if you take five or six different types of a religion and put them against one another in a debate, you will still have a commonality factor. Such as Christians = Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Calvinist, catholic = Christ was a living figure and Savior of all... so... Satanism = different sects = Satan is there and cool.

Sorry, but that is the way logic has me thinking.

Satan is more of a figure to scare people. Nothing more and nothing less. He's a good scare tactic but is very laughable. His current form was taken from either the Greek God Pan or Cerunnos who is Celtic I believe. But I can also say Christianity=mixture of pagan beliefs with Jewish beliefs. Paganism=Original religion that started the whole religion thing.

Actually, it is polytheism = origin. Basically, the belief that something(s) is out there. That turns into a belief of specific something(s).

And the image of Satan as a demonic figure is based on those characters, if only for the horn factor. Actually, according to Christian tradition he is beautiful. Remember, he is a fallen angel and so he is still like them in ways. This is one of the ways that he can still tempt people.  

[Neferet -House of Night-]

SloanSage

Dark Angel Rai

SloanSage

Dark Angel Rai

SloanSage

Dark Angel Rai

ummm there are more than one type of Satanist. The majority of Satanists are Lavaeyan. And Lavaeyan Satanists don't actually do half the things in the Satanic Bible, it's satire, and it's to scare the Christians. Do a little more research on it before spewing more bs.

Well, apparently the researchers and the Satanist on the documentary I watched the other were totally wrong then.

I tend to watch the History Channel, and during any holiday week, they have specials on that event or furniture surrounding it. And for the past month they have been doing things that concern Satanists, the origins of Halloween, Demons, the Devil, and things involving central Halloween figures (Frankestien, Dracula... stuff like that). I saw a few concerning Satan and Satanists. But apparently they are wrong. Sorry.

Not everything on TV is true even if it's on the History channel. I'm friends with a few Satanists. It's best to ask actual Satanists about their religion rather than to believe what some idiot says on TV.

I don't necessarily take EVERYTHING they say, but I kin of compare what they do on the History Channel, the History International Channel (which tends to be fuller of different things... such as not always going with the trends in what they research and show at certain times), as well as numerous Discovery Channel type channels. so, it is not really only the History Channel I get my info from, I get it from other places too. and usually if you take five or six different types of a religion and put them against one another in a debate, you will still have a commonality factor. Such as Christians = Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Calvinist, catholic = Christ was a living figure and Savior of all... so... Satanism = different sects = Satan is there and cool.

Sorry, but that is the way logic has me thinking.

Satan is more of a figure to scare people. Nothing more and nothing less. He's a good scare tactic but is very laughable. His current form was taken from either the Greek God Pan or Cerunnos who is Celtic I believe. But I can also say Christianity=mixture of pagan beliefs with Jewish beliefs. Paganism=Original religion that started the whole religion thing.

Actually, it is polytheism = origin. Basically, the belief that something(s) is out there. That turns into a belief of specific something(s).

And the image of Satan as a demonic figure is based on those characters, if only for the horn factor. Actually, according to Christian tradition he is beautiful. Remember, he is a fallen angel and so he is still like them in ways. This is one of the ways that he can still tempt people.

Polytheism is a classification of beliefs just like monotheism. They aren't neccessarily religions. Paganism (mainly Druidism I believe) was the first to have a belief of Gods and Goddesses no matter how many there are.  

[SloanSage]

Dark Angel Rai

SloanSage

Dark Angel Rai

SloanSage

Dark Angel Rai

Not everything on TV is true even if it's on the History channel. I'm friends with a few Satanists. It's best to ask actual Satanists about their religion rather than to believe what some idiot says on TV.

I don't necessarily take EVERYTHING they say, but I kin of compare what they do on the History Channel, the History International Channel (which tends to be fuller of different things... such as not always going with the trends in what they research and show at certain times), as well as numerous Discovery Channel type channels. so, it is not really only the History Channel I get my info from, I get it from other places too. and usually if you take five or six different types of a religion and put them against one another in a debate, you will still have a commonality factor. Such as Christians = Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Calvinist, catholic = Christ was a living figure and Savior of all... so... Satanism = different sects = Satan is there and cool.

Sorry, but that is the way logic has me thinking.

Satan is more of a figure to scare people. Nothing more and nothing less. He's a good scare tactic but is very laughable. His current form was taken from either the Greek God Pan or Cerunnos who is Celtic I believe. But I can also say Christianity=mixture of pagan beliefs with Jewish beliefs. Paganism=Original religion that started the whole religion thing.

Actually, it is polytheism = origin. Basically, the belief that something(s) is out there. That turns into a belief of specific something(s).

And the image of Satan as a demonic figure is based on those characters, if only for the horn factor. Actually, according to Christian tradition he is beautiful. Remember, he is a fallen angel and so he is still like them in ways. This is one of the ways that he can still tempt people.

Polytheism is a classification of beliefs just like monotheism. They aren't neccessarily religions. Paganism (mainly Druidism I believe) was the first to have a belief of Gods and Goddesses no matter how many there are.

Actually, I mis-spoke. It is Theism. You have to realize and recognize that there is SOMTHING out there greater than you/ Then you go to Polytheism (which is what the Egypitan, Greek, Roman, Hindum, Shinto and the like are located.) and Monotheism (which is where Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and similar religions are located).

A good book on finding "something" is Till We Have Faces.  

[OneWithDunamis]

Dark Angel Rai

rainstar123

God is real!And if you dont belive it when Jesus comes then you go to hell.

But your vision of hell could be another's vision of heaven.

Masochists perhaps.  

[OneWithDunamis]

Kapplar

rainstar123

God is real!And if you dont belive it when Jesus comes then you go to hell.

So you believe in God because he threatens you into believing in him? Is this a religion or a cult?

If it's true, does it matter what one calls it? If God exists and God says those who don't believe in Him go to hell, whether we believe it or not is irrelevant if it's true. I can choose not to believe in the laws of physics, but I can't choose to float in mid air indefinitely on my own.  

[divineseraph]

OneWithDunamis

Kapplar

rainstar123

God is real!And if you dont belive it when Jesus comes then you go to hell.

So you believe in God because he threatens you into believing in him? Is this a religion or a cult?

If it's true, does it matter what one calls it? If God exists and God says those who don't believe in Him go to hell, whether we believe it or not is irrelevant if it's true. I can choose not to believe in the laws of physics, but I can't choose to float in mid air indefinitely on my own.

Yes, but Satan says that the TRUE way to eternal happiness is through him, and through sacrificing goats and drinking blood. By the same logic, you should believe Satan too, since it's irrelevant wether or not you believe, it could still be true.  

[SloanSage]

OneWithDunamis

Kapplar

rainstar123

God is real!And if you dont belive it when Jesus comes then you go to hell.

So you believe in God because he threatens you into believing in him? Is this a religion or a cult?

If it's true, does it matter what one calls it? If God exists and God says those who don't believe in Him go to hell, whether we believe it or not is irrelevant if it's true. I can choose not to believe in the laws of physics, but I can't choose to float in mid air indefinitely on my own.

Okay, lets clear one thing up...

cult = religion that may be defined, but is not mainstream

Christianity = a defined religion that is mainstream

Islam = a defined religion that is mainstream

etc...

Cult, in early writings, refers to religions other than Christianity.

So really, asking is this a religion or a cult is redundant.

Most religions/cults have the stipulation of a punishment for not believing.  

[Ricette]

Every religion is, at its core, a cult to one degree or another. Just a matter of comparison to what we know as contemporary cults to find the similarities. And on page one I saw something along the lines of if you don't give God a try, you won't know the truth. Thats, to me, bullshit. If in the end God is non-existent, he was not truth. To you he is truth because you believe in it being so. But to another, God is simply too illogical to be even considered as close to truth. Its how it tends to pan out.  

[OneWithDunamis]

divineseraph

OneWithDunamis

Kapplar

rainstar123

God is real!And if you dont belive it when Jesus comes then you go to hell.

So you believe in God because he threatens you into believing in him? Is this a religion or a cult?

If it's true, does it matter what one calls it? If God exists and God says those who don't believe in Him go to hell, whether we believe it or not is irrelevant if it's true. I can choose not to believe in the laws of physics, but I can't choose to float in mid air indefinitely on my own.

Yes, but Satan says that the TRUE way to eternal happiness is through him, and through sacrificing goats and drinking blood. By the same logic, you should believe Satan too, since it's irrelevant wether or not you believe, it could still be true.

But since I don't find joy in sacrificing goats and drinking blood, I'm pretty certain Satan's wrong.  

[Ricette]

OneWithDunamis

divineseraph

OneWithDunamis

Kapplar

rainstar123

God is real!And if you dont belive it when Jesus comes then you go to hell.

So you believe in God because he threatens you into believing in him? Is this a religion or a cult?

If it's true, does it matter what one calls it? If God exists and God says those who don't believe in Him go to hell, whether we believe it or not is irrelevant if it's true. I can choose not to believe in the laws of physics, but I can't choose to float in mid air indefinitely on my own.

Yes, but Satan says that the TRUE way to eternal happiness is through him, and through sacrificing goats and drinking blood. By the same logic, you should believe Satan too, since it's irrelevant wether or not you believe, it could still be true.

But since I don't find joy in sacrificing goats and drinking blood, I'm pretty certain Satan's wrong.

Really now? You know for certain Satan is all wrong about it all? Who are you? God? Now if its your opinion, then thats your opinion. To others Satan has it right. Who says what you or I or anyone thinks is the definate right or wrong answer or way?  

[Gerbil_of_the_Vashness]

Ricette

OneWithDunamis

divineseraph

OneWithDunamis

Kapplar

rainstar123

God is real!And if you dont belive it when Jesus comes then you go to hell.

So you believe in God because he threatens you into believing in him? Is this a religion or a cult?

If it's true, does it matter what one calls it? If God exists and God says those who don't believe in Him go to hell, whether we believe it or not is irrelevant if it's true. I can choose not to believe in the laws of physics, but I can't choose to float in mid air indefinitely on my own.

Yes, but Satan says that the TRUE way to eternal happiness is through him, and through sacrificing goats and drinking blood. By the same logic, you should believe Satan too, since it's irrelevant wether or not you believe, it could still be true.

But since I don't find joy in sacrificing goats and drinking blood, I'm pretty certain Satan's wrong.

Really now? You know for certain Satan is all wrong about it all? Who are you? God? Now if its your opinion, then thats your opinion. To others Satan has it right. Who says what you or I or anyone thinks is the definate right or wrong answer or way?

there is scientific evidence that jesus existed. if he is real, then why can't the rest of it be?

and for a bad troll, he got all of you into a pretty good argument, wouldn't you say?  

[OneWithDunamis]

Ricette

OneWithDunamis

divineseraph

OneWithDunamis

Kapplar

rainstar123

God is real!And if you dont belive it when Jesus comes then you go to hell.

So you believe in God because he threatens you into believing in him? Is this a religion or a cult?

If it's true, does it matter what one calls it? If God exists and God says those who don't believe in Him go to hell, whether we believe it or not is irrelevant if it's true. I can choose not to believe in the laws of physics, but I can't choose to float in mid air indefinitely on my own.

Yes, but Satan says that the TRUE way to eternal happiness is through him, and through sacrificing goats and drinking blood. By the same logic, you should believe Satan too, since it's irrelevant wether or not you believe, it could still be true.

But since I don't find joy in sacrificing goats and drinking blood, I'm pretty certain Satan's wrong.

Really now? You know for certain Satan is all wrong about it all? Who are you? God? Now if its your opinion, then thats your opinion. To others Satan has it right. Who says what you or I or anyone thinks is the definate right or wrong answer or way?

So everything is subjective then? If that's what you think I'd have to disagree, simply because it's illogical.

As well, if it is true happiness that's in question, and true happiness is not achieved through the things mentioned above, then it's simply not true. If Satan is talking about emotions here and that's not universally true for all who do those things, then my opinion does matter because in this case it reflects my emotions, which is a crucial factor in Satan's claim. If drinking blood is supposed to make me truly happy and it doesn't, then he's clearly not correct.  

[Neferet -House of Night-]

OneWithDunamis

Ricette

OneWithDunamis

divineseraph

OneWithDunamis

If it's true, does it matter what one calls it? If God exists and God says those who don't believe in Him go to hell, whether we believe it or not is irrelevant if it's true. I can choose not to believe in the laws of physics, but I can't choose to float in mid air indefinitely on my own.

Yes, but Satan says that the TRUE way to eternal happiness is through him, and through sacrificing goats and drinking blood. By the same logic, you should believe Satan too, since it's irrelevant wether or not you believe, it could still be true.

But since I don't find joy in sacrificing goats and drinking blood, I'm pretty certain Satan's wrong.

Really now? You know for certain Satan is all wrong about it all? Who are you? God? Now if its your opinion, then thats your opinion. To others Satan has it right. Who says what you or I or anyone thinks is the definate right or wrong answer or way?

So everything is subjective then? If that's what you think I'd have to disagree, simply because it's illogical.

As well, if it is true happiness that's in question, and true happiness is not achieved through the things mentioned above, then it's simply not true. If Satan is talking about emotions here and that's not universally true for all who do those things, then my opinion does matter because in this case it reflects my emotions, which is a crucial factor in Satan's claim. If drinking blood is supposed to make me truly happy and it doesn't, then he's clearly not correct.

According to Sociology, good and bad, right and wrong are subjective and vary from culture to culture, religion to religion.  

[Gerbil_of_the_Vashness]

Dark Angel Rai

OneWithDunamis

Ricette

OneWithDunamis

divineseraph

OneWithDunamis

If it's true, does it matter what one calls it? If God exists and God says those who don't believe in Him go to hell, whether we believe it or not is irrelevant if it's true. I can choose not to believe in the laws of physics, but I can't choose to float in mid air indefinitely on my own.

Yes, but Satan says that the TRUE way to eternal happiness is through him, and through sacrificing goats and drinking blood. By the same logic, you should believe Satan too, since it's irrelevant wether or not you believe, it could still be true.

But since I don't find joy in sacrificing goats and drinking blood, I'm pretty certain Satan's wrong.

Really now? You know for certain Satan is all wrong about it all? Who are you? God? Now if its your opinion, then thats your opinion. To others Satan has it right. Who says what you or I or anyone thinks is the definate right or wrong answer or way?

So everything is subjective then? If that's what you think I'd have to disagree, simply because it's illogical.

As well, if it is true happiness that's in question, and true happiness is not achieved through the things mentioned above, then it's simply not true. If Satan is talking about emotions here and that's not universally true for all who do those things, then my opinion does matter because in this case it reflects my emotions, which is a crucial factor in Satan's claim. If drinking blood is supposed to make me truly happy and it doesn't, then he's clearly not correct.

According to Sociology, good and bad, right and wrong are subjective and vary from culture to culture, religion to religion.

that may be true, but does the individual not also decide for HIM/HERSELF what THEY percieve as right or wrong?