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Which is better?
Bellatrix
38%
 38%  [ 7 ]
Joker
61%
 61%  [ 11 ]
Total Votes : 18


KatieInTheBox

PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:57 am


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Which was crazier and how do you think the actors did in those rolls? I think this might be an interesting discussion about these two characters and how the actors did in their rolls and how they could have improved it.

First the book and comic book characters themselves. These materials are the guides and outlines where actors and people get their ideas for the villains. Personally I think the Joker is more insane then Bellatrix, though it is close, but to me she seems to have more purpose to her madness. She has reasons why she kills and harms, though she does so in excess and derives joy from it. She did it for the love and loyalty for Voldermort; Whereas The Joker committed his crimes just because he could do it. He wanted to watch others suffer just because. To see how low people could get just before they died, to see their 'true' weakness, was the reason The Joker did what he did. To me that is much more malicious. Both share a disregard for others, a want for power and were completely within their mental capacities to know the difference between right and wrong. So on the crazy scale between 1-10 I give Bellatrix a 9 and Joker an 10.

As for the actors of these characters I believe Helena Bonham Carter, did a very good job with her character. She got the hate and malice pretty well and her go at insanity, which is never easy to act, was good, but somehow I was more afraid of her anger, then her insanity and unpredictability. It was a very good performance though; I couldn't have done better, so I respect her acting in this role. I look forward to seeing her a little more in the last two movies to see how she ads a little more to the character. Though I understand that she is not a main villain, like the Joker, and her character was not as developed, it is still interesting to see her work.

For The Joker, where to begin? I believe Cesar Romero was the first actor who played The Joker in the original 'Batman'. You know the Adam West, ‘Batman’ shows. The POW, ZONK, CRASH! The T.V. show with the Bat Dance, the poor costumes, sets, and overweight characters. For being the first Joker he did well, though his acting, like all other acting at that time, was kind of over the top and hard to believe. But there is a saying, “[n]o one, ever paid to see under the top,” which is true. Cesar Romero stuck more to the side of The Joker who was more like a bully in clown make-up then a deranged, violent, sociopath who murders people, causes chaos and commits crimes for his own amusement. He really stuck with making The Joker seem comic bookish, more then a real criminal/villain. His make-up was to neat, to clean, he had too much reasoning, and his gangsters were overweight and rather comical in their fighting. But he did have a good Joker laugh and it was amusing to watch him.

Then there was the great Jack Nicholson in the 1989 film ‘Batman’. Now that is a Joker smile if ever there was one to emulate. He is the one I remember as my generation's Joker. He had the derangement in the acting and the character was getting more believable. Though it still was over the top, it had both the violent and the ridiculous. I was really afraid of him when I was young, now that I'm older it's not so scary, but still at least this Joker scared me, where as Cesar Romero never really frightened me. Yet again though his make up was too neat and clean, his hair was well kept, as was his suit and he had reasoning but not as much, it seemed. Though this time the fighting scenes where better and more believable.

Next voice actor, Mark Hamill, in the 1990’s ‘Batman: The Animated Series’ television series did very well. While he didn't have to act with his body, his voice was very good for the character of The Joker. Voice acting is just as difficult as real acting, just in different ways. I think he was a good choice for lending his voice, and his laugh was rather like Cesar Romero’s.

Finally now Heath Ledger, in the 2008 ‘Batman Begins’ sequel, ‘The Dark Knight’, was amazing. He had it. He truly went insane for the role (Edited out debatable or misconstrued information.) He got into the character so much he was scaring the staff on set; he had terrible nightmares and wouldn't sleep. I feel terrible he died; I would have liked to see him in another Joker role. He is the Joker to top them all. He was both the weird trickster and the horrible sociopath. The make-up, hair, and suit it was all believable. It was amazing and horrifying. His crimes as the original comic book Batman put it, "make sense to him alone." I won't go into detail to ruin any of the movie for those who have seen it, but I truly believe that if they have another sequel to Batman Returns, they have to get another criminal, other then Joker, because no other actor would do it the justice Heath Ledger did.

Wow this is long. If you make it to the bottom, go you! I really would like to hear what other people think about these two villains and those that played them.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 9:37 am


Okay, the role in the Dark Knight did nothing towards Heath Ledger's death. He was also shooting another mother, during the time he did die (ah, can't remember the name gonk ). He had other problems, that obviously resulted in a sleeping disorder and I believe he was taking things for anxiety also. His death was accidental, and happens a lot when people mix medications that aren't supposed to be taken together, and it's unfortunate that it happened.

Back on topic. You sort of went from rating Helena's acting to listing all the different Batman's there have been, so it makes it kind of hard to reply.
I think Helena did a good job, I like her as an actress so I'm sort of biased. She was creepy, schrieky, and looked like how I would invision Bellatrix to look like (although that is the costume designers job, not the actors so they can't have credit for the look).
I think all the Batman's before this have been a complete joke. They've all been embarassing to watch and have horrible acting. Even Jack Nicholson couldn't save it. I think the newer Batman with Christian Bale are actually something not to be embarassed about. They have a better story line and let you into how he became Batman and that he didn't just fall out of the sky one day and decided to fight villians. So with obviously better writers and director, it makes it easier to be a better character.

Now.. Since I trailed off topic too lol, I think they both did good jobs and these are two completely different movies that cannot be compared based on characters. Bellatrix could've been creepier/crazier/louder but you need to remember she's not even on screen that much to begin with where as the Joker is a huge role in the movie.

Okay. That's probably all very confusing so I'm leaving it alone and not writing anymore haha.

Grey Gardens

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candy!x0x0

PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:46 pm


Personally, I don't think that we have seen enough of Bellatrix in the movies to be able to determine which one is crazier. I think that it is very close. If they would've showed more Bellatrix in the movies, then there would be much more of an argument. However, if your basing everything off the movies, then the Joker (dark night's) wins all the way.
PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:33 am


I'm a HUGE fan of canon-Bella, but by way of actors I think Heath Ledger did a better job.
Poofy hair doesn't exactly translate into insanity.... .__.'

turayza


KatieInTheBox

PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:03 am


Grey Gardens
Okay, the role in the Dark Knight did nothing towards Heath Ledger's death. He was also shooting another mother, during the time he did die (ah, can't remember the name gonk ). He had other problems, that obviously resulted in a sleeping disorder and I believe he was taking things for anxiety also. His death was accidental, and happens a lot when people mix medications that aren't supposed to be taken together, and it's unfortunate that it happened.

Back on topic. You sort of went from rating Helena's acting to listing all the different Batman's there have been, so it makes it kind of hard to reply.
I think Helena did a good job, I like her as an actress so I'm sort of biased. She was creepy, schrieky, and looked like how I would invision Bellatrix to look like (although that is the costume designers job, not the actors so they can't have credit for the look).
I think all the Batman's before this have been a complete joke. They've all been embarassing to watch and have horrible acting. Even Jack Nicholson couldn't save it. I think the newer Batman with Christian Bale are actually something not to be embarassed about. They have a better story line and let you into how he became Batman and that he didn't just fall out of the sky one day and decided to fight villians. So with obviously better writers and director, it makes it easier to be a better character.

Now.. Since I trailed off topic too lol, I think they both did good jobs and these are two completely different movies that cannot be compared based on characters. Bellatrix could've been creepier/crazier/louder but you need to remember she's not even on screen that much to begin with where as the Joker is a huge role in the movie.

Okay. That's probably all very confusing so I'm leaving it alone and not writing anymore haha.


Thanks Grey. I agree I did go off on a tangent about the Joker's actors. redface sweatdrop As for the previous Batmans, before the ones with Christian Bale, I think they were going for more a comic book feel, but made it more of a joke.

I was also trying to compare the Bellatrix from the book and the Joker from the comic in the first paragraph but I don't think I came across well either.

Sorry I will work on making more since in the future. 3nodding
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:22 am


Sorry, I wasn't trying to make you feel like you didn't come across very good. Because I did understand what you were talking about, obviously I know the English language well razz

I understand it better now that you were talking about the over all Bellatrix from the books. I think she is pretty crazy but no where close (from what I've heard about the movie) to the Joker. They comic book, and the book are both kid based but I think, like I said before and you did, they're taking Batman more seriously now and are making their characters more indepth then J.K. ever did with Bellatrix in the books.

Sorry if that's confusing, drowsy right now sweatdrop

Grey Gardens

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LadyHealingHands
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:36 am


Interesting thread! I have to say Jack Nicholson's and Heath Ledger's Joker terrified me, and Helen's Bellatrix did not. Maybe because I knew what was coming next, horrific as it was, and Helen's Bellatrix came across as mad and nasty, not evil. Evil terrifies me, mad and nasty I see in my job, and a lot of times it improves with nutrition and therapy. (and maybe a make-over for Bellatrix - can you just see her in pastel)? Heh.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:30 am


Bellatrix would look hilarious in pastel, with little pink ribbons in her hair. Helena Botham Carter does not do well in light colors. The Joker that heath ledger (who did a marvelous job by the way) was so scary, that I had to close my eyes in a few scenes when he's cutting that black mobster with a razor (why so serious son? let's put a smile on that face) gonk . For some reason, Nicholson didn't scare me, maybe its the idea that he was evil but funny evil?

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ScottieBears MiaKitty

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 12:15 pm


Ok, my uncle is a huge Batman fan, so I've already gotten this lecture (though I didn't need it, because I already knew it was true, because I am also a huge Batman afficiando), and I feel the desire to send it along.

The new Joker, played by Heath Ledger, is the way the Joker was originally written to be. He was never meant to be goofy or silly, the way the series and past movies have made him. In the beginning, the Joker was a complete and utter sociopath, with no regard for anyone but himself and his own insanity. That being said, I did enjoy the silly, sort of over the top deranged Joker played by Jack Nicholson. However, it was nothing compared to what I felt watching The Dark Knight. The movie made me shudder, and even made me worry about myself a little. I was sitting there laughing my butt off, and then would suddenly realize that I was laughing because someone got killed. It's become a huge inside joke with my family, that when someone makes us angry, we ask if they want to see a magic trick (although I knew about that scene beforehand, because Scottie told me about it... it was my absolute favorite scene).

Bellatrix Lestrange is one of my least favorite characters, but that's only because she killed Sirius, which really upset me. I do love the way Helena played her, but I am going to need to wait to be able to say for sure if I think she did the role correctly, because I think that the scene that shows her character's final color is the beginning chapter of Half-Blood Prince. I'm reserving judgement until then.

It's hard to really place the two together, because the Joker is the main villian in The Dark Knight, and honestly I think he got more screen time than Bruce Wayne, whereas Bellatrix is a side character, not the big bad, and gets very little actual characterized screen time.

Helena Bonham Carter is one of my absolute favorite actresses (loved her in Sweeney Todd.), and I'm not particularly fond of Heath Ledger, so it's odd that I prefer his role. It may be because I love the Joker, and always have (although I prefer the Riddler, for some reason I'm not sure of), and I don't like Bellatrix (though I like her as a character).

Ok, I'm finished.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 1:29 pm


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@ Scotties MiaKitty

Woah, another Batman fan who knew that Joker was really meant to be a madman! Sweet. biggrin Your right Scotties, and in some of the newer 90's and 00's comics they make him more of how they really wanted him. The comics now, compared to comics then, are much darker. The comics in the earlier days had to adhere to the censers. So Joker was made more of a joke, but lately with the relax of censers and the rating system in place, they can finally make comics for teens and adults with the real stories they wanted.

Where as Harry Potter is more for younger kids and the worse thing described in the book was when Molly yell, "NOT MY DAUGHTER YOU b***h!" I laughed then and can't wait for that scene in the movie.

And I laughed to at the pencil scene too. We all, my friends and I, had the same problem. Ohhhh, hahahaha, wait that was wrong. whee Still it was funny.

As for the Riddler, I love him in the comics and, even though I am going to get yelled at by someone, Jim Carry was great as the Riddler. "Riddle me this, Riddle me that, whose afraid of the big, black bat?"

As well I would like to ask: Did you get the Blob and Juggernaut reference made by the Joker? Major DC / Marvel faux pas. Few people got it, except the comic book geeks.

@ LadyHealingHands

That would be hilarious. Bellatrix in pastels. xd

KatieInTheBox


Galyxies

Bloodsucker

PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:24 am


I couldn't help but clicking on this topic.
Unfotunately, I'm more of a Superman fan, myself. Actually, I really don't like Batman at all. -__o'
Although, this conversation is interesting to read.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:31 pm


Ledger as Joker was perfect! He completely freaked me out the way Joker was meant to. I love the Batman cartoon too even though it's different from the comic in many ways. I hope that the next Batman movie with real people has either Penguin or Poison Ivy as the villain.

Helena as Bellatrix...I wasn't impressed. Granted, Bella had a very small role in the film, so it might have been difficult for Helena. Nonetheless, I think that she failed to get across Bella's passion for doing insane cruelty, especially when her beloved Voldemort bid her to. She didn't look lke her either; her hair and lipstick were ridiculous.

I agree, Bellatrix has more purpose to her madness than Joker. Also, Bella would never disobey Voldemort, and Joker has no master.

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Rayvyn_Vaughn

PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:45 pm


Ledger did do really well as the Joker. The Joker's always been my favorite villain. The way he portrayed the Joker, scared me at first, then fascinated me. He potrayed him exactly as he was supposed to be. Demented and evil and all those good things. I even bought a poster of the Joker and decided to hang it near my bed and woke up one night and almost screamed cuz I thought he was really there. If only his picture can do that, Ledger must have done something right.

I wasn't too impressed by Helena as Bellatrix. I think the big hair was just way overboard. It didn't seem to fit at all. She didn't come off as insane either. She just seemed to be angry and cruel and kind of a lap dog to Voldemort. Though, I think that's how she is in the book too... I just think it didn't work out well.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:09 pm


I think their even because the joker thinksits a joke putting a pencil in someones head and bellatrix on killing her cousin.

ZackyBakerVengeance

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ScottieBears MiaKitty

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2009 7:02 pm


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First, at Vyalias Kryptonite: I can't stand Superman. Honestly, I think he's got way too much power and not enough weaknesses. I also don't think he has enough depth. To be honest, I fail to find a flaw with his character that creates any kind of character depth. He's just one of those good guys who is Good with a capital G, which is boring. Batman has flaws, he has weaknesses. He has inner turmoil. Also, I think that it's really great how Batman has all this money that he could be spending on all manner of ridiculous self centered hobbies, and instead, he spends his money and his time keeping his city safe. They're both great guys and all, I just think that Batman is more interesting.

Katie: I didn't catch the Blob and Juggernaut references. I did catch a few references to the old movies. And a Catwoman joke. Did you get those? And yeah, to be honest, nothing annoys me more than people who say that the new movies are awful because they're not the real Batman, or the real Joker, or whatever. Also, I hate people who compare the two. You really can't. Like, there was a rumor going around that Johnny Depp is supposed to play the Riddler. I love Johnny Depp, and so does Kyra, but she made me so angry because she said no matter how good he is he would never be able to top Jim Carrey. Like you can really put the two against each other and have any sort of competition. The genre's of the movies are totally different. It's the same as comparing an episode of the Justice League cartoon to the Watchmen movie.

LHH: I like Helena Bonham Carter. I love her. She's my favorite actress. So I did like her as Bellatrix. But it was really hard to get a feel of the character because she didn't really have that much chance to show it in OotP. I think that she did a really good job in HBP, though. She got more of a chance to be crazy, you know? And she was certifiably insane this time around.

To LHH and Ravyn Vaughn: Don't knock Helena because of the costume. As a theatrical-type person, I get really annoyed at people for judging an actor's portrayal by their costume or make-up. Especially in big productions and in movies. I'm going to let you guys know something: She didn't pick her costume and make up, the director did. So no matter how bad she looks, it's not her fault. You can knock her acting all you like, but don't blame her for the costume. When you're comparing Helena as Bellatrix to Heath as the Joker, the physical aspect of it shouldn't be considered, because they didn't choose that on their own. They were told 'this is the character design, this is how you'll look' and had to deal with it. So if you want to decide you don't like the character for how she looks, be sure you're blaming the right person. When comparing the actual characters, you can complain about how she looks all you want, but once you start considering the actors, the physical aspect should go away in your considerations, because that wasn't their choice.

Ok, I think I'm done... *scratches head* Wow, I can be kind of... well, witchy, hee hee...

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