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PoppyDadswell
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 5:17 pm


i cover my head.i try my best to follow the bible.i hope to marry in a year or so and want to have a kind husband,whom i am happy will have to make important decisions instead of me and whom will leave me to make house and family decisions instead.yet i keep finding topics and threads stating that people like me are oppressed and sad for following an outdated custom.when i defend my beliefs and religion i am always wrong and offend someone.can people not respect my wishes and not bash my religion and my beliefs?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:44 pm


I think it's important for you to know whether this style of relationship is:

1. Forced on you, and makes you unhappy;

2. Easier in some ways than a more 'modern' relationship, but makes you neither happy nor unhappy;

3. Something you choose or chose, and makes you happy.

Once you're sure -- and it seems like you are -- then it's up to other people to decide whether they really want you to be happy in the way that makes you happy, or whether what they really want is for you to be happy in the way that makes them happy.

In the end, though, whether or not others can accept your beliefs and/or your lifestyle is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether you're happy with the choices that you've made; if you are, whether you have the self-assurance to remind people that they're not the ones that your life is designed to please, and they need to step off (say it nicely and with a smile); and if you're not happy, whether you have the courage to make changes.

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ffdarkangel

PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:50 pm


Jeez, I bet the people that are telling you this are in tight clothes about to get raped or already have. That is some serious respect there.

Some ideas from the past are good. We can't always be in the new constantly; we will forget where we came from and repeat the same sequence over and over again.

Follow that so called "out-dated" custom but you will have the last laugh. At least, that is what I think. Beauty only lasts a little while but a honest relationship not based on lust alone lasts a lot longer.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 4:08 am


ffdarkangel
Jeez, I bet the people that are telling you this are in tight clothes about to get raped or already have. That is some serious respect there.
I'm not trying to be an a** or start an argument or anything, but...I really have a problem with that statment. First of all, it reeks of "That whore had it coming," and seriously, regardless of how a person dresses, nobody asks to be raped. Or deserves it. Secondly, rape is most often about power, not about getting a hot lay. In other words, how a person looks or dresses usually has nothing to do with it. It's about the rapist having power and control over their victim.

And also...just because a person has different views on how a marriage should be doesn't mean that they dress like a slut. I'm not really seeing how the two are related to each other.

Sorry. I really couldn't just let that go.


Anyway, as for the actualy topic, it's generally silly to assume that what's appealing to one person should be appealing to everyone else. I think a lot of it probably has to do with mislead "feminists" (who really aren't true feminists) thinking that if a woman dares to be more submissive than a man, she's just brainwashed by society. Which is silly. Different things work for different people. Personally, I prefer a relationship of equal power and responsibility. That's what I have, and that's what works for me, mostly just because if the way I'm wired (I'm independent, but I also hate feeling like I have to take care of everything, so I would have trouble performing either the "head of the house" or the "homemaker" roles exclusively). Not everyone's wired like that, and that's okay. I don't think that women should have to stay at home and raise the kids, but I also recognise that many women find that more fulfilling than any money-making career, and I say more power to them.

In short: One should not be required (either legally or socially) to perform tranditional gender/marriage roles, but they should have every right to do so without ridicule if that's what they want and it works for them.

SinfulGuillotine

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PoppyDadswell
Captain

PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 5:37 am


Divash
I think it's important for you to know whether this style of relationship is:

1. Forced on you, and makes you unhappy;

2. Easier in some ways than a more 'modern' relationship, but makes you neither happy nor unhappy;

3. Something you choose or chose, and makes you happy.

Once you're sure -- and it seems like you are -- then it's up to other people to decide whether they really want you to be happy in the way that makes you happy, or whether what they really want is for you to be happy in the way that makes them happy.

In the end, though, whether or not others can accept your beliefs and/or your lifestyle is irrelevant. What's relevant is whether you're happy with the choices that you've made; if you are, whether you have the self-assurance to remind people that they're not the ones that your life is designed to please, and they need to step off (say it nicely and with a smile); and if you're not happy, whether you have the courage to make changes.


well i'd be no.3 but what makes me unhappy is the pressure not to cover.i think a part of the problem is today's view on 'oppressed muslims' and when people then see a woman covered thats not a nun they think oppressed in bold capital leters.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:19 pm


ffdarkangel
Jeez, I bet the people that are telling you this are in tight clothes about to get raped or already have.


I don't mind starting an argument, because it's worth arguing about.

Women, men, and children get raped every day. Some of them are gorgeous. Some of them are in revealing clothing. Some of them started out flirting.

But some of them are very old, very young. Some of them dress badly. Some of them dress very modestly. Some of them dress in overtly religious attire. Some of them were not flirting or "asking for it" in any other way.

If it were all about one's clothing, appearance, or even style of behavior, women as old as eighty-nine and children as young as eighteen months would never be victims of sexual violation. Neither would nuns, Amish women, or those who dress in Islamic or Orthodox Jewish style. I have a close relative who's a nurse. She's mentioned some of her more heartbreaking patients to me over the years. These have ALL happened, ALL been her own patients, and not just once or twice, but a few times. And she is not the only nurse in her community who deals with rape victims, which means that the others probably dealt with their share of victims who didn't fit the commonly misunderstood profile -- in other words, they weren't women, men, or children that YOU would probably consider "sluts." They were mothers, grandmothers, daughters. Some were dressed for going out to a club to dance; some were at home in old ratty bathrobes when their homes were broken into; some were on their way home from working late. Some were men. Some were young children.

ANY time a person says no, and the other person doesn't stop, it is rape. "She was asking for it" is never acceptable. Even if she was into it and then changed her mind halfway through, she STILL has the right to say no. Even if she was walking down the street naked thanks to some cruel fraternity "joke," that doesn't give another person the right to violate her. Get that thought out of your head right now. Oh, and just because (so far) you have avoided being raped, that doesn't make you somehow superior to everyone who's been raped, or ever will be raped. It's not because you're morally superior, or your clothing choices were superior. It's because you are lucky. I hope that you never learn what it's like to be unlucky.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 3:26 pm


PoppyDadswell
what makes me unhappy is the pressure not to cover.i think a part of the problem is today's view on 'oppressed muslims' and when people then see a woman covered thats not a nun they think oppressed in bold capital leters.


Some people see nuns, monks, and priests as oppressed, too. Frankly, I'm one of them, though I know that for the vast majority these days, they weren't just sold to the Catholic church or handed over as orphans and then never given a different choice. Today's Catholic clergy (priests, nuns, monks, religious sisters and brothers) are given every choice, and then educated unbelievably well -- in fact, some orders/convents require the novices to come with a college degree, proving that they can, and did, and will, live lives of service to humanity whether or not they go on to become full nuns. But deep down, I also feel, "What is it that would entice a person to live lifelong without the closeness of a mate? Who would cut off all contact with the entire romantic/sexual parts of their nature and live separated from not only humanity at large, but from a large part of their own humanity?" But I remind myself once again that it wasn't kept secret from them, what they'd be vowing, and they had ample opportunities -- even encouragements -- to back out and seek a different life.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:45 pm


PoppyDadswell
i cover my head.i try my best to follow the bible.i hope to marry in a year or so and want to have a kind husband,whom i am happy will have to make important decisions instead of me and whom will leave me to make house and family decisions instead.yet i keep finding topics and threads stating that people like me are oppressed and sad for following an outdated custom.when i defend my beliefs and religion i am always wrong and offend someone.can people not respect my wishes and not bash my religion and my beliefs?
That's one of the many problems troubling our world. People are showing less & less respect for others. How you choose to live your life is your decision not others. If you choose to cover & be a stay at home wife then more power to you. I agree with you also in that there are many topics putting down those that try following the Bible. I guess some people are only happy when they can try & upset others. It's very sad for those that act that way. Obviously they are wanting attention & approvel & only know the wrong ways of going about this.

Daniel Hall_The Sandman


PoppyDadswell
Captain

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:46 am


Divash
ffdarkangel
Jeez, I bet the people that are telling you this are in tight clothes about to get raped or already have.


I don't mind starting an argument, because it's worth arguing about.

Women, men, and children get raped every day. Some of them are gorgeous. Some of them are in revealing clothing. Some of them started out flirting.

But some of them are very old, very young. Some of them dress badly. Some of them dress very modestly. Some of them dress in overtly religious attire. Some of them were not flirting or "asking for it" in any other way.

If it were all about one's clothing, appearance, or even style of behavior, women as old as eighty-nine and children as young as eighteen months would never be victims of sexual violation. Neither would nuns, Amish women, or those who dress in Islamic or Orthodox Jewish style. I have a close relative who's a nurse. She's mentioned some of her more heartbreaking patients to me over the years. These have ALL happened, ALL been her own patients, and not just once or twice, but a few times. And she is not the only nurse in her community who deals with rape victims, which means that the others probably dealt with their share of victims who didn't fit the commonly misunderstood profile -- in other words, they weren't women, men, or children that YOU would probably consider "sluts." They were mothers, grandmothers, daughters. Some were dressed for going out to a club to dance; some were at home in old ratty bathrobes when their homes were broken into; some were on their way home from working late. Some were men. Some were young children.

ANY time a person says no, and the other person doesn't stop, it is rape. "She was asking for it" is never acceptable. Even if she was into it and then changed her mind halfway through, she STILL has the right to say no. Even if she was walking down the street naked thanks to some cruel fraternity "joke," that doesn't give another person the right to violate her. Get that thought out of your head right now. Oh, and just because (so far) you have avoided being raped, that doesn't make you somehow superior to everyone who's been raped, or ever will be raped. It's not because you're morally superior, or your clothing choices were superior. It's because you are lucky. I hope that you never learn what it's like to be unlucky.


i totally agree.my dad was one of these victims and he has never been normal.his abuser was sent to jail but i know that he has victims in america too and they do not know that he was punished and could be still hurting.
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:52 am


Divash
PoppyDadswell
what makes me unhappy is the pressure not to cover.i think a part of the problem is today's view on 'oppressed muslims' and when people then see a woman covered thats not a nun they think oppressed in bold capital leters.


Some peopple see nuns, monks, and priests as oppressed, too. Frankly, I'm one of them, though I know that for the vast majority these days, they weren't just sold to the Catholic church or handed over as orphans and then never given a different choice. Today's Catholic clergy (priests, nuns, monks, religious sisters and brothers) are given every choice, and then educated unbelievably well -- in fact, some orders/convents require the novices to come with a college degree, proving that they can, and did, and will, live lives of service to humanity whether or not they go on to become full nuns. But deep down, I also feel, "What is it that would entice a person to live lifelong without the closeness of a mate? Who would cut off all contact with the entire romantic/sexual parts of their nature and live separated from not only humanity at large, but from a large part of their own humanity?" But I remind myself once again that it wasn't kept secret from them, what they'd be vowing, and they had ample opportunities -- even encouragements -- to back out and seek a different life.


there is a part of the new testament that says if one can live without marriage that its a good time but if not its better to marry than 'burn' if thats any help to you.curiosly enough about 17/18 i became interested in becoming a nun.however there wasnt any nuns in my church but i started covering my head and thats 3 years ago.

PoppyDadswell
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Divash
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:05 pm


PoppyDadswell
there is a part of the new testament that says if one can live without marriage that its a good time but if not its better to marry than 'burn' if thats any help to you.curiosly enough about 17/18 i became interested in becoming a nun.however there wasnt any nuns in my church but i started covering my head and thats 3 years ago.


As a Jew, I'm not a believer in the Christian Testament, so no, it wouldn't help me in the least. The Hebrew Bible makes it clear that "The human being is not meant to be alone." I also don't see it as consistent with Hebrew Bible theology that God would accept "the lesser of two evils" as an okay solution to a perceived problem; but thank goodness, the Hebrew Bible views marriage and marital relations, not as a "partial sin," but as vital and necessary for the emotional and spiritual health of the individual and the couple. Certainly, it doesn't regard marital relations as sinful or even as partially sinful; in fact, that's considered one of the highest religious duties of a man, to please his wife. The idea of someone cutting off an entire aspect of their personhood seems awful to me.

On the other hand, I'm sure that every priest who ever ate a ham sandwich, lobster bisque, or cheeseburger and milkshake shook his head and wondered how I could possibly live without that, in keeping with the Jewish dietary laws. They must feel that I'm denying myself something precious, just as I feel they are.

And I'm sure that the head covering issue is looked at from both sides with a profound lack of understanding. I see that I never have a messy hairdo anymore, never worry about sun damage, wind tangles, city grit, the stench of pollution or cigarette smoke, or being put on display by showing my hair. And someone else looks at my hat/snood/cap/scarf/wig and thinks, "She must be hot in that. I wonder if it gives her a headache. Imagine, not being able to feel free to show your hair or wear shorts. Oh, the poor oppressed thing."

The great thing about having so many religions and ideologies is that, if we have the courage to do so, we can seek the one that fits us best rather than stay in one that is making us unhappy. We can do what feels truly fulfilling for us, and if we didn't worry about one another so much, we could enjoy the fact that each of us loves a different flavor, a different way to understand the divine within the world and within all of us. smile

(But... well, to those who've had both sides of it -- ham sandwich versus marital bliss -- I think we know I got the better end of the deal. Keep your bacon and sausage and ham. I'm just fine with what I've got over here. wink )
PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:50 pm


I guess I'll jump in regarding the priest/nun vs. marriage thing since I'm Catholic and Catholicism is kind of into that.

Although I do know that some Catholics regard nuns and members of the clergy as "more holy" than those who choose to live a married life, I'm not sure that that's official doctrine. At least, I was never taught that, and the Catholic school I attended was pretty conservative and enjoyed making students feel sexually repressed. Generally, I think that Catholicism teaches simply that all people are not called to a married life. Not everyone wants to get married and/or have children and take care of a family. Not everyone is even especially interested in sex. Not that you have to become a nun or a priest if that's the case. You can simply stay single and abstinent if that's how you roll, but many people simply feel that providing spiritual guidence is more rewarding than getting married. They're not any better or worse than those who do choose to get married; they simply chose a different path. It takes all kinds of people to keep a religion going. If everyone was celibate, there would be no good Catholic parents raising good Catholic children. The Church recognises this, and as such, there is absolutely no shame in chosing married life over lifelong celibacy.

I think the idea that celibacy is "more holy" than married life comes from the fact that...well, Catholicism is a little weird about sexuality. I'm not going to lie. Many Catholics grow up with the idea that sexual urges are evil and dirty and to be overcome at all costs, so someone who has taken a vow to never give into those urges sort of gets put up on a pedastal. But I think that's more of a social thing than it really is official doctrine. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, though. I don't pretend to CatholicAnswers.com or anything.

SinfulGuillotine

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PoppyDadswell
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:22 am


Divash
PoppyDadswell
there is a part of the new testament that says if one can live without marriage that its a good time but if not its better to marry than 'burn' if thats any help to you.curiosly enough about 17/18 i became interested in becoming a nun.however there wasnt any nuns in my church but i started covering my head and thats 3 years ago.


As a Jew, I'm not a believer in the Christian Testament, so no, it wouldn't help me in the least. The Hebrew Bible makes it clear that "The human being is not meant to be alone." I also don't see it as consistent with Hebrew Bible theology that God would accept "the lesser of two evils" as an okay solution to a perceived problem; but thank goodness, the Hebrew Bible views marriage and marital relations, not as a "partial sin," but as vital and necessary for the emotional and spiritual health of the individual and the couple. Certainly, it doesn't regard marital relations as sinful or even as partially sinful; in fact, that's considered one of the highest religious duties of a man, to please his wife. The idea of someone cutting off an entire aspect of their personhood seems awful to me.

On the other hand, I'm sure that every priest who ever ate a ham sandwich, lobster bisque, or cheeseburger and milkshake shook his head and wondered how I could possibly live without that, in keeping with the Jewish dietary laws. They must feel that I'm denying myself something precious, just as I feel they are.

And I'm sure that the head covering issue is looked at from both sides with a profound lack of understanding. I see that I never have a messy hairdo anymore, never worry about sun damage, wind tangles, city grit, the stench of pollution or cigarette smoke, or being put on display by showing my hair. And someone else looks at my hat/snood/cap/scarf/wig and thinks, "She must be hot in that. I wonder if it gives her a headache. Imagine, not being able to feel free to show your hair or wear shorts. Oh, the poor oppressed thing."

The great thing about having so many religions and ideologies is that, if we have the courage to do so, we can seek the one that fits us best rather than stay in one that is making us unhappy. We can do what feels truly fulfilling for us, and if we didn't worry about one another so much, we could enjoy the fact that each of us loves a different flavor, a different way to understand the divine within the world and within all of us. smile

(But... well, to those who've had both sides of it -- ham sandwich versus marital bliss -- I think we know I got the better end of the deal. Keep your bacon and sausage and ham. I'm just fine with what I've got over here. wink )


so-o its almost expected to marry if a jew? confused i could eat a ham sandwich, lobster bisque, or cheeseburger and milkshake but i have not and not been married i cannot argue either way.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:19 am


Divash

(But... well, to those who've had both sides of it -- ham sandwich versus marital bliss -- I think we know I got the better end of the deal. Keep your bacon and sausage and ham. I'm just fine with what I've got over here. wink )



That is an extremely odd thing to say, and on a par with saying tight clothing = foolish statements about women's supposed oppression. Marital bliss is not comparable to enjoyment of non-kosher food, and it's not an either-or situation.

Poppy... heart keep standing up for yourself. I am in agreement with the statement,

ffdarkangel
Some ideas from the past are good. We can't always be in the new constantly; we will forget where we came from and repeat the same sequence over and over again.
.

Traditions did not become tradition because they failed to work for the society, but because they did. Allowing a husband to make the major decisions is not slavery, it's a willingness to trust and more beautiful and harmonious than jockeying for the leadership position, and it's not as though the wife has no say. She has a lot of power over him, because she is willingly yielding up power to him. My dad is the dominant one in my parents' marriage, but of late I realized where they are living, and how they live, is not by his choice. It is by hers. If he had his druthers he'd be living in a fishing shack by the ocean with very little furniture, and fish all day long. She's meek but definitely not helpless.

Also, it's nice to not be the leader, but some people won't understand that until they have experienced being the leader. In my teens I was all fiercely gung-ho about female independence in every aspect, but when I was much older, I was made manager in a startup company because the boss had run off everyone else...and leadership was not all it was cracked up to be. I was responsible for every mistake my subordinates made, had to care for them because they depended on me even after training, was pressured by the boss to do not just my job but theirs, and I'll stop there. Having all that power didn't mean freedom. I had tremendous respect for managers, and men, after that.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:41 am


PoppyDadswell
so-o its almost expected to marry if a jew?


For the most part, yes. Normative (meaning, 'the most prevalent') life, and what's considered most desirable, is marriage and reproduction. However, the tradition also acknowledges that for many different reasons, some folks aren't suited to that life. For example, if someone is medically or psychologically unable to have sexual relations (or heterosexual relations), that person isn't expected to marry. In fact, the person is discouraged from marrying, because marital relations are seen as one of the most important parts of marriage. It's true, too, in a way.

Think about it. If nothing is going right, great sex isn't going to solve any problems. However, even if everything else is going right, an unsatisfying sexual relationship is going to eventually leak out and create an unsatisfying emotional relationship. Sooner or later, disappointment/sadness/frustration over a poor sexual relationship is going to turn into little petty arguments, then bigger arguments, and an entire marriage can fall apart, God forbid -- if the sexual relationship isn't mended and healed.
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