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 Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:09 pm
Due to the recent increase in terrorist attacks, government officials want to start a proccess known as racial profiling. Since the majority of the known terrorists are of arabic descent, they want to have the freedom to inverstigate any random arabic person at any time.
Some say this will limit the rights of people of arabic descent. Others claim it is only fair to be able to track down the terrorists. Some even go as far as saying this will result in a worldwide genocide.
Is this racism, or is it an act to protect the people of the country? Where do you draw the line between safety and racism?
Where do you stand, and why?
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:18 pm
I'll keep it simple. I'm against any kind of profiling, up to and including the US PATRIOT ACT and PATRIOT II.
I've been told I'm a libertarian for my beliefs, but I don't follow any particular political philosophy. Just the old philosophies.
There's a line to be drawn. In order to be made safe, we have had our rights, our "freedoms", taken from us. Whether we are truly free or not is for the other discussion, so I'll just assume we are free by the Constitution for the purposes of this debate.
Depending on which you think is more important, you'll choose a different thing. Perhaps you'll decide "Hey, I don't want to be blown up!" and choose "safety", which sounds too Orwellian for me.
Perhaps you'll decide "Hey, I want to be able to not have the fuggin' FBI watching me!" and choose "freedom", which is the correct choice, at least for me. I don't answer for anyone else.
Open your eyes and see if I'm wrong. Our republican democracy (or democratic republic, whatever xp ) takes step after step towards totalitarian dictatorship with every "freedom" taken away to make us "safe".
Well, what is safe? Let's take into consideration the fact that our rights have been steadily siphoned away, ever since September 11th, 2001.
And how will Muslim countries react to this? Hell, all Arabic nations? You think they're gonna be happy about this?
I predict five years of peace at most after this. No more. 2010 or sooner.
It's called World War III for a reason.
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:31 pm
Cougar Draven I'll keep it simple. I'm against any kind of profiling, up to and including the US PATRIOT ACT and PATRIOT II. I've been told I'm a libertarian for my beliefs, but I don't follow any particular political philosophy. Just the old philosophies. There's a line to be drawn. In order to be made safe, we have had our rights, our "freedoms", taken from us. Whether we are truly free or not is for the other discussion, so I'll just assume we are free by the Constitution for the purposes of this debate. Depending on which you think is more important, you'll choose a different thing. Perhaps you'll decide "Hey, I don't want to be blown up!" and choose "safety", which sounds too Orwellian for me. Perhaps you'll decide "Hey, I want to be able to not have the fuggin' FBI watching me!" and choose "freedom", which is the correct choice, at least for me. I don't answer for anyone else. Open your eyes and see if I'm wrong. Our republican democracy (or democratic republic, whatever xp ) takes step after step towards totalitarian dictatorship with every "freedom" taken away to make us "safe". Well, what is safe? Let's take into consideration the fact that our rights have been steadily siphoned away, ever since September 11th, 2001. And how will Muslim countries react to this? Hell, all Arabic nations? You think they're gonna be happy about this? I predict five years of peace at most after this. No more. 2010 or sooner. It's called World War III for a reason. It's true. I think that if they want to investigate people, it should be anyone, regardless of race, gender, or anything of the sort. Plus; if you're predicting World War III in 2010, perhaps the religious fanatics are right about the apocalypse coming soon...
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 3:56 pm
Lesidia It's true. I think that if they want to investigate people, it should be anyone, regardless of race, gender, or anything of the sort. Plus; if you're predicting World War III in 2010, perhaps the religious fanatics are right about the apocalypse coming soon... I can see no other end to this. We've actually asked publicly for permission from the government to set apart the descendants of an entire region. There is no recourse but war. And I don't get much into religious fanaticism...the old philosophies don't provide for an Apocalypse like the one we'll have...
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:30 pm
Boy you guys are real pessimists! A third world war inevitable my a$. The more people that believe that, the more it's going to be true, you realize that, right? stare If all you see as the outcome is war, you'll get what you ask for.
Anyway, it's both racism and safety. It's not an either-or thing here, I don't think. Racism is really just a mean way of saying stereotype or observed pattern of frequency. The stereotype wouldn't exist if it wasn't prevalent. It's still a stereotype, which as all stereotypes do, they sometimes label people unjustly. Other times they describe pretty well.
Personally, I think people have gotten too damned paranoid. The Patriot Act took advantage of that and never should have been put into place. Terrorism, while a problem, is minor compared to some other things we really aught to be spending our resources on. I don't mean to make light of those who have suffered losses due to attacks by any means, but in the grand scheme of things that kill people, terrorism dosen't rank all that high. More people die each year as a consequence of stupid decisions they make (ie, lung cancer from smoking, heart attacks from poor diet) than from terrorism.
Because of the excessive paranoia, the racial profling in this case will definately be more unjust than it should be. It has its benefits, but so people are still to sensitive and not thinking with a clear head that it may cause as much harm as good. But, unlike you guys, I'm an optimist. Eventually, all this hysteria will fade and we'll laugh at ourselves and start thinking rationally. This will probably take at least another four or five years, but it will pass like every other phase of history does.
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:45 pm
Starlock It has its benefits, but so people are still to sensitive and not thinking with a clear head that it may cause as much harm as good. But, unlike you guys, I'm an optimist. Eventually, all this hysteria will fade and we'll laugh at ourselves and start thinking rationally. This will probably take at least another four or five years, but it will pass like every other phase of history does. You hope. xd It's not that I'm a pessimist (although I am, just in this case that wasn't what applied). It's the fact that I'm a sociopath, and I'm almost rooting for the abject destruction of society as we know it. The return of the White, I call it.
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 6:55 pm
Cougar Draven Starlock It has its benefits, but so people are still to sensitive and not thinking with a clear head that it may cause as much harm as good. But, unlike you guys, I'm an optimist. Eventually, all this hysteria will fade and we'll laugh at ourselves and start thinking rationally. This will probably take at least another four or five years, but it will pass like every other phase of history does. You hope. xd It's not that I'm a pessimist (although I am, just in this case that wasn't what applied). It's the fact that I'm a sociopath, and I'm almost rooting for the abject destruction of society as we know it. The return of the White, I call it. Okay... now I'm *really* starting to wonder if you're using the word 'sociopath' in the actual psychological disorder sense, or ... something entirely different that I have no idea what it is... sweatdrop
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Posted: Sat Jul 23, 2005 7:13 pm
Starlock Cougar Draven Starlock It has its benefits, but so people are still to sensitive and not thinking with a clear head that it may cause as much harm as good. But, unlike you guys, I'm an optimist. Eventually, all this hysteria will fade and we'll laugh at ourselves and start thinking rationally. This will probably take at least another four or five years, but it will pass like every other phase of history does. You hope. xd It's not that I'm a pessimist (although I am, just in this case that wasn't what applied). It's the fact that I'm a sociopath, and I'm almost rooting for the abject destruction of society as we know it. The return of the White, I call it. Okay... now I'm *really* starting to wonder if you're using the word 'sociopath' in the actual psychological disorder sense, or ... something entirely different that I have no idea what it is... sweatdrop Oh, I'm reasonably certain I'm using it correctly. I'm just not paying a lot of attention to what I'm saying right now...kinda blinded by something... replace the comma after 'sociopath' with a semicolon, and that should fix it. And I was talking about the difference between seeing everything in a negative light, and just not giving a damn.
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:24 am
Quote: Boy you guys are real pessimists! A third world war inevitable my a$. The more people that believe that, the more it's going to be true, you realize that, right? stare If all you see as the outcome is war, you'll get what you ask for. Actually, it's basic human psycology. People literally can't live without war, without anger. Ever read anything by sigmund Freud? You should. Some of that stuff actually makes sense. Quote: Anyway, it's both racism and safety. It's not an either-or thing here, I don't think. Racism is really just a mean way of saying stereotype or observed pattern of frequency. The stereotype wouldn't exist if it wasn't prevalent. It's still a stereotype, which as all stereotypes do, they sometimes label people unjustly. Other times they describe pretty well. Personally, I think people have gotten too damned paranoid. The Patriot Act took advantage of that and never should have been put into place. Terrorism, while a problem, is minor compared to some other things we really aught to be spending our resources on. I don't mean to make light of those who have suffered losses due to attacks by any means, but in the grand scheme of things that kill people, terrorism dosen't rank all that high. More people die each year as a consequence of stupid decisions they make (ie, lung cancer from smoking, heart attacks from poor diet) than from terrorism. Ah, but, you see, the government is proposing to be able to invade any arabic person's privacy, life, rights, and all that jazz whenever they wish. You don't find anything WRONG here? I'm not too high on the morality fanatics scale, being atheist, but I just find this immoral and unneccesary. Really, they can just as easily take EVERYONE'S rights away. I would prefer that, even though I'm not of arabic descent. Quote: Because of the excessive paranoia, the racial profling in this case will definately be more unjust than it should be. It has its benefits, but so people are still to sensitive and not thinking with a clear head that it may cause as much harm as good. But, unlike you guys, I'm an optimist. Eventually, all this hysteria will fade and we'll laugh at ourselves and start thinking rationally. This will probably take at least another four or five years, but it will pass like every other phase of history does. People don't like to admit mistakes. There's living proof. Neo-nazis. The new Poope being against Harry Potter because it 'promotes witchcraft'. Something this big will not simply fade. It's logically impossible for people just to FORGET innocent people being killed, and then more innocent people getting their rights taken away. Technically, everything passes, and perhaps this will not be the cause of WWIII, but WWIII is inevitable an you can't avoid that fact. We have more and more powerful weapons, and every country is itching to use them. What d'ya think the outcome of such a tension is going to be?
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Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2005 9:29 am
Lesidia People don't like to admit mistakes. There's living proof. Neo-nazis. The new Poope being against Harry Potter because it 'promotes witchcraft'. Something this big will not simply fade. It's logically impossible for people just to FORGET people being killed, and then more people getting their rights taken away. Technically, everything passes, and perhaps this will not be the cause of WWIII, but WWIII is inevitable an you can't avoid that fact. We have more and more powerful weapons, and every country is itching to use them. What d'ya think the outcome of such a tension is going to be? War. It's simple. Man, I need to pay more attention to the news...did Benedict XVI actually say that...? Sure, this might not be the direct cause, but you can be damn sure that whoever attacks us to kick it off won't have forgotten as easily as we'll want to. Oh, and another thing. Both of the first World Wars were caused by Germany attacking France or some other joke of a nation, then Britian joined in, and we waited a couple of years before getting involved. Not this time. Pearl Harbor is gonna look like the friggin' Battle of Midway in comparison this time. We're gonna think we won the Vietnam War after the start dropping...
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 11:43 am
I quite disagree on the ascertation that humanity needs war. I think people need change. And change will always be there. Change can bring good things and bad things. It can bring bliss and it can bring pain. There doesn't need to be war. Only change. How people deal with change is up to them.
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 3:14 pm
Starlock I quite disagree on the ascertation that humanity needs war. I think people need change. And change will always be there. Change can bring good things and bad things. It can bring bliss and it can bring pain. There doesn't need to be war. Only change. How people deal with change is up to them. That's the difference. You'll deal with the change in stride. I'll likely deal with it by walling myself up with my g1rlfriend. Most, however, will react with anger. And war will result. War is inevitable. We've had eleven wars in a little over two hundred years of existence. Face it, another one will happen. There were no worldwide wars in thousands of years of existence, but since we've come about, there have been two. And there was a period of only twenty years' peace in between. It'll happen again. I know it will.
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Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2005 4:53 pm
Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945 First they came for the Communists, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn’t speak up, because I wasn’t a Jew. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn’t speak up, because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time there was no one left to speak up for me. No, I don't think profiling as described is a good idea. Actually, it's probably not that bad an idea, but I'm not in favour of it. I'm opposed to the idea of having to carry an ID card just so that random coppers don't harass me for it and then fine me cause I'm not carrying it either, so it seems only logical I don't wish it on others either. (All hail the liberty of the Dutch..) Alright, so I exaggerate on the 'harass' part, but basically they have the right to ask me for my ID at any time and I'm expected to produce it if I don't want to have to pay money to the government because I'm not carrying this purty little thing they told me to pay for just so I can carry it. So, pretty much in agreement with Cougar Draven here. I can't say much of anything on US legislation, therefor, what with, ya know, not being in the damned country and not knowing all that much about it.
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