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 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:15 pm
Lazarous Which is what I was trying to communicate. A character is fully capable of committing deeds for causes they do not consider just. They can full well perform acts that they consider "wrong", though they might be more disposed towards "right". Ah, my fault for misunderstanding.
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Posted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 9:21 am
I never really saw the Unseelie as Evil, certainly never to the extent that I'd use them as The Evil Bad-Guys.
They allways just struck me as Less Snobby, more Selfish Changelings. Also, they probably wouldn't even be as bad as they are now, if the Seelie hasn't decided to treat them as an underclass and remove all their rights...
If anyone was Bad in Changeling, it was the Sidhe...
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Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:13 am
I never really got into Changling. I've read the book, but never cared to play.
I have recently started Demon though. They have a very interesting take on the Good and Evil thing.
They end up doing a lot of fighting with each other. The demons seeking redemption fighting against the demons who just want to destroy the world, that kind of thing.
Then the landbound are pretty nasty too.
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:02 am
Going back to the Cammies and the Sab's, I don't quite see the Sabbat as "EVIL". Yes both groups do have their own self-interests, but so does each and every character on the board. I honestly believe Cammarilla is the far greater evil of the two. The before mentioned, "Worse". Lets go back to Vampire, 1st Edition.
In Vampire 1st edition, the Sabbat didn't exist. Mainly the 7 clans in the cammarilla and their struggle against themselves.
In Second edition, the Sabbat was introduced. But introduced as thoughtless beasts. Monsters who creeped along the night and slaughtered for the sake of slaughtering. No personality what so ever.
In the Revised Edition (aka 3rd Edition), the Sabbat was fleshed out as Anti-Heros. The lovely angsty vampires who bumped back against the Cammies.
I believe that both Cam and Sab are equal on the evil factor. Sure the Sab's might just outright shoot you instead of going through god knows how many political pawns like the Ventrue. But they still basically do the same thing.
If your looking for a greater evil in Vampire. I would suggest looking at the Baali. In most cases, playing as either Sabbat or Cam...the Baali will have you outclassed in Evilness.
But I do see what your saying, in general. Akuma, Baali, BlackSpiral Dancers, etc. These are the monsters of the night that most PC's pale to.
But I do think they serve as great RP tools in the WoD. The "True Evil", the Persona that shows your PC's that they still are somewhat human.
If used properly these tools are very handy. In the hands of a bad ST, they quickly ruin the game.
I think these monsters should be used sparingly. And with much care.
My final point is. If you want Evil used incorrectly, look up Samuel Haight.
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Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:24 pm
Samuel Haight is a shining example of how awesome Wraith was - "I'm Samuel Haight! I rule! Now I'm dead! Now none of my powers work. Ah. Now I'm an ashtray."
I love the Anti-Hero thing - I've got Freak Legion: Players Guide to Fomori. I love the idea of running a game using these (Pentex-Spawn) as 'good-guys', a hit-squad sent out to stop the monsters that keep attacking their employer.
Actually, if that grabs anyone, I will, could be fun twisted
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:00 pm
What I think is really interesting is if an ST throws real "good-guys" at the anti-hero players. What happens when a player must confront someone who is not only more noble and well-intentioned than they are, but who is also entirely opposed to what they stand for? Or as a slightly different example, what happens when a Celestial Chorus mage finds herself opposed by a mortal Inquisitor? They're both trying to help the human race, they both attribute their powers (if the Inquisitor even has any) to God, and they both seek to put an end to evil. The difference is that the Inquisitor is convinced (and maybe right) that the mage's powers are not of God. And so there is conflict.
And on the subject of Sammie-boy, which source-books cover his story again? I probably have them, but there are just so many...
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Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:31 pm
Samuel "The Skinner" Haight is mentioned in several books, but the greatest trove of info about him can be found in Tribebook: Children of Gaia, Valkenburg Foundation and his ultimate fate can be found in The Book of Legions.
For the unwashed masses who don't know squat about Sam:
Sam started life as a CoG Kinfolk who was abused by his Garou father and hated that he never Changed. Sam hated not only himself, but the Garou that created him and became one badass Werewolf hunter (where he got his nickname "The Skinner" from), then decided he needed more power, so he became an independent Ghoul and learned Thamaturgy. Then Sam decided his power level was still too low and used some more XP to max out on Hedge Magic. Using his combined powers of Thamaturgy and Hedge Magic, he rediscovered the Rite of Sacred Rebirth, in which for the low low cost of five Garou pelts, one can become a Skin Dancer (faux-Garou). Needless to say, Sam killed the needed Garou and became the first modern Skin Dancer, then spread the ritual among other dissatisified Kinfolk and created his own sub-tribe.
But surprise, Sam had more XP he needed to spend, so he bought an Artifact that gave him an Arete rating. Sam then realized he was running low on XP so he decided to go kill an Antediluvian in Mexico. Thankfully, it was just a Methuselah who, after a long battle in which no PC could participate, reduced Sam to a red smear on the floor.
Sam goes to Stygia where he finds that none of his powers work and before he could spend any XP on Arcanos, he was scooped up and Soulforged into an ashtray forever and ever.
The End.
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