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 Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 7:35 pm
PhaedraMcSpiffy MipsyKitten Oh, and Phaedra, I mentioned the genetic disorders which effect one sex or the other (such as scoliosis which happens more in girls than boys and is genetic), which would be a logical reason to abort based on gender. Well, that's a biological reason, but I dunno if it would be considered "valid." I have slight scoliosis, and I still live a life without intense pain. And it could be because of social reasons or minor biological reasons that could easily be remidied. It seems a bit... much. A horrible or deadly disease that's vastly more common in one sex than the other would be a better example.
You are not every woman (or man) with scoliosis. Your theory of remedy may not, or will not, work for others as it might for you. Let's keep this in mind.
Any reason to abort, regardless of the reason, is perfectly valid even if you're offended by it. I cannot see how the choice of gender is sexist, unless their reason for that gender is sexist. Even then, it's no one's business.
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Posted: Thu May 10, 2007 10:42 pm
Hmm... I suppose you could say that any reason is valid. But for me, it sounds kinda close to the idea that morality is so subjective that it can be used as an excuse to violate human rights. Like, say, "female genital mutilation is okay because it's a cultural thing."
(Just for the record: No, FGM does not compare to aborting because of gender.)
I know it's nobody else's business. I'm not in favor of putting any more restrictions on abortion. Everyone has their own way of making their own decision, but I happen to disagree, personally, with aborting based solely on gender.
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 8:36 am
PhaedraMcSpiffy Hmm... I suppose you could say that any reason is valid. But for me, it sounds kinda close to the idea that morality is so subjective that it can be used as an excuse to violate human rights. Like, say, "female genital mutilation is okay because it's a cultural thing." Morality IS so subjective that it HAS been used to justify human rights violations. I'm not saying it should be at all, but it happens. Although I'm having a very hard time trying to figure out how you got to that conclusion. I seriously doubt anyone here is saying they like the idea of someone saying "ewww, I'm having a girl, ABORT IT!" It's not a nice thing to think about. However, if someone's going to treat a child unfairly, because of their sex I'd rather them have the option to abort before a human being is in the picture. I'd also rather a woman had the option to abort, instead of finding out later in the pregnancy and doing something so dangerous, as to cause a miscarriage due to her getting the 'wrong' gender. PhaedraMcSpiffy I know it's nobody else's business. I'm not in favor of putting any more restrictions on abortion. Everyone has their own way of making their own decision, but I happen to disagree, personally, with aborting based solely on gender. That's your right to do so. It's what pro-choice is about. No one's saying you have to like anything. I just feel it's unfair, and unjust to call someone 'sexist' for aborting, because they got the 'wrong' gender.
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 9:43 am
PhaedraMcSpiffy Hmm... I suppose you could say that any reason is valid. But for me, it sounds kinda close to the idea that morality is so subjective that it can be used as an excuse to violate human rights. Like, say, "female genital mutilation is okay because it's a cultural thing." (Just for the record: No, FGM does not compare to aborting because of gender.)
Morality is subjective, to extremes. That is quite a large given, but who's rights are being violated?PhaedraMcSpiffy I know it's nobody else's business. I'm not in favor of putting any more restrictions on abortion. Everyone has their own way of making their own decision, but I happen to disagree, personally, with aborting based solely on gender.
If you wish to continue to insist this involves a from a sexism, you must explain where the oppression is. In order to do that, we must know what burden is being imposed. In order to do that, we must prove the fetus either has some form of imposes duty, violated right, or be conscious to experience this.
But it cannot. So, to continue saying this supports sexism is saying you do not support abortion based on the reason of gender because YOU are offended and YOU feel it is unfair.
So, please, why do you disagree with it?
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 2:37 pm
While I do agree with Talon's and Slut Enya's points, Mipsy Kitty and Mcspiffy equally had some compelling points to share.
I'm reminded that quite a bit of the decisions we make in life may not be politically correct.
For one, it could be politically incorrect to discriminate a love partner based on the color of their skin, ethnicity, religion, or socio-economic background/income, but we do it all the time. Many of us are mature enough to say "I have no preference to race" or "I just prefer to date those within my own race", or "I just don't prefer (name your race here) people", rather than hurling insults or saying unfriendly things.
Same with the adoptive parents. It's just their preference that they want healthy, male, white, blonde-haired blue-eyed children, with the two most important criteria being HEALTHY and WHITE. Still, no one is obligated to breed for them, and no unwanted child should have to be obligated to be born.
Ya gotta admire how political correctness tries to make all people feel fair and comfortable towards each other but It wouldn't be quite a free world if we had to practice it 100% of the time in all areas of our lives against our will, though.
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Posted: Fri May 11, 2007 7:45 pm
Mipsy However, if someone's going to treat a child unfairly, because of their sex I'd rather them have the option to abort before a human being is in the picture. I'd also rather a woman had the option to abort, instead of finding out later in the pregnancy and doing something so dangerous, as to cause a miscarriage due to her getting the 'wrong' gender. Absolutely. Kata Samoes PhaedraMcSpiffy Hmm... I suppose you could say that any reason is valid. But for me, it sounds kinda close to the idea that morality is so subjective that it can be used as an excuse to violate human rights. Like, say, "female genital mutilation is okay because it's a cultural thing." (Just for the record: No, FGM does not compare to aborting because of gender.)
Morality is subjective, to extremes. That is quite a large given, but who's rights are being violated?It wasn't a comparison about human rights. Technically, the fetus doesn't really have any--and it should stay that way. I'm just saying that the attitude of "everyone's beliefs are okay" kind of freak me out. People have used that attitude to allow horrible injustices to be carried out. Like... getting out of obeying the law and basic human rights by claiming your religion is being persecuted. Pharmacists who refuse to give out Plan B, Parents who insist on mutilating their children because of religious/cultural background. I guess I'm saying that I don't really beleive in moral relativism. Not as an excuse to harm people, at least. But in abortion, no person is harmed (or at least not unjustly.). So I don't have a problem with keeping it legal for any reason. I just question the reasoning behind aborting because of gender. I guess the comparison was a weak one. I don't really remember what Iwas getting at, to be honest. Quote: PhaedraMcSpiffy I know it's nobody else's business. I'm not in favor of putting any more restrictions on abortion. Everyone has their own way of making their own decision, but I happen to disagree, personally, with aborting based solely on gender.
If you wish to continue to insist this involves a from a sexism, you must explain where the oppression is. In order to do that, we must know what burden is being imposed. In order to do that, we must prove the fetus either has some form of imposes duty, violated right, or be conscious to experience this.
But it cannot. So, to continue saying this supports sexism is saying you do not support abortion based on the reason of gender because YOU are offended and YOU feel it is unfair.
So, please, why do you disagree with it?[Damn, you're good.] Why I disagree.... Personal reasons, I suppose. It all comes down to my personal morality. There is no oppression being carried out in the action, but I think the action is a symptom of oppressive ideologies. Why did they want one gender but not the other? What was so bad about that particular gender that they absolutely refuse to give birth to and raise it? I'm worried about what motivates this. I think it offends me, personally, because I beleive that other than a few physical differences, gender differences are socially constructed. I don't think there is any reason to limit people based on what sexual organs they have. I really don't think that little boys and girls are all that different. I think we make most of the differences. I also feel like it's... just plain ungrateful. You have a perfectly healthy fetus, why can't you be satisfied? Why do you want a "perfect" child? It worries me. I have trouble articulating what's so creepy about this attitude that everyone needs to be perfect, it's just... it feels so damn 1984-ish. Grip of Death I'm reminded that quite a bit of the decisions we make in life may not be politically correct. For one, it could be politically incorrect to discriminate a love partner based on the color of their skin, ethnicity, religion, or socio-economic background/income, but we do it all the time. Many of us are mature enough to say "I have no preference to race" or "I just prefer to date those within my own race", or "I just don't prefer (name your race here) people", rather than hurling insults or saying unfriendly things. That pisses me off, too! But I have to admit: I do judge people on how they look! I also have this little guilty thing going on about hair color. I'm a redhead, and so's my boyfriend. We're only... I think less than four percent of the population. What's more, we're an unusual type of redhead. If we have a child.... we want it to look just like us. We know that we have a good chance of getting a blonde or brunnette (my family has all the major hair colors), but we want a redhead with dark brown eyes. But I feel terrible thinking that! Would we hate our kid just because it wasn't our favorite color?! I don't know, I don't think so, but I DO know we'd be much happier if it was what we wanted! Ugh! I feel really stupid and shallow for feeling that way! Grip Ya gotta admire how political correctness tries to make all people feel fair and comfortable towards each other but It wouldn't be quite a free world if we had to practice it 100% of the time in all areas of our lives against our will, though. In a "not choosing our own mate and being paired off at random" way, yes. But in a "let's make it illegal to violate people's rights just for being ____, and let's try to cooperate" way, it's not a bad thing.
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