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-okonomiyaki o konomu-

PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:26 pm


Sakura_kura
You should contact the person who made the thread. Oh, I hope it wasn't me xD

This thread? I made it, but I don't know how to change the thread name.

EDIT: Nevermind...
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 4:47 pm


There are Spoilers Here! If you clicked on the title for some unknown reason, turn back now!!!! This is a giant Spoiler-full post!


Alright. This is my opinion on the Severus kills Dumbledork situation. I'm going to go through the entire book, in chronological order... Prepare for a rather large post. I've stolen lots of it from other people, and have tweaked it quite a bit (I have an 11 page Word file of HBP arguements, so I don't know where I got each bit from), but yeah, I do agree entirely with the following opinion..


1/ First of all, we know Dumbledore was injured in the first two weeks of the holidays. He tells Harry that only Snape's great skill saved his life.
If Snape hates Dumbledore so much, why would he let him live? He had, to use only a little less skill, to not try quite so hard, and Dumbledore would have been lost, doubtless to Pomfrey's loud lamentations of how hard they all tried but the injury was too severe.

2/ Dumbledore's injury does not heal completely, throughout the entire book, Harry constantly notices it. I believe that Albus was slowly dying - that Severus could save his life at the time of the injury, but not heal him completely. And with
Dumbledore weak, possibley dying, he would want to maximise the leverage he could get off his potential death. Furthermore, he has always said that he does not fear death, that it's merely the next great adventure, etc.

3/ Dumbledore at last intervenes with the Dursleys. Why would he do it now? He's left Harry there alone and unloved for years. Why act now, when he could have waited until the end of Harry's schooling, or could have acted so many years earlier? I believe that this is evidence that Dumbledore knew he wasn't going to make it to the end of Harry's schooling. Dumbledore isn't a nice man. Oh, he has plenty of social graces, and people love him with his sweets and his eccentricities and his twinkling eyes. But a nice man would have been shocked and horrified and intervened immediately he knew what was happening to Harry at the Dursley's house. Dumbledore isn't a nice man - he is a great man, and there's a world of
difference. He has acted deliberately to allow Harry to be neglected
and abused - and there's a hint of physical violence as well as
emotional violence, when Harry is careful to stay out of Vernon's
reach after years of long practice - and he does not intervene. He
watches, until this year.

4/ Snape makes an Unbreakable Vow to Narcissa.
With Dumbledore expendable, here is the perfect opportunity to prove
beyond any doubt that Snape is Voldemort's man. Bellatrix was still
suspicious of Snape after his explanations, but the vow shook her
considerably. That Snape could make this vow and follow it through
puts him right behind the Dark Lord, and that's where to need to be to
wield a knife.

5/ Snape tells Bella he heard the plan that Draco would kill
Dumbledore from Voldemort.
This is not something he can lie about - Bellatrix is too close to
Voldemort not to be able to verify the information. I believe
absolutely that he went straight to Dumbledore with the information,
and they were able to use it, in the light of Dumbledore's health, to
make Snape's position unshakeable.

6/ Hagrid overhears Snape protesting to Dumbledore that 'he didn't
want to do it anymore'. Hagrid puts it down to Snape being worn-out
with his teaching duties, and Harry is far more suspicious.
Think how difficult this is for Albus and Snape. There would be many
moments in the saving of Draco, in the plan for Snape to go
deep-cover, when Snape doubted his own strength. When he didn't
believe that he'd be able to do this. When it hurt too damned much. I don't believe that Dumbledore displayed any behaviour at all that could indicate that he
doubted Severus.

7/ Dumbledore starts telling Harry everything about Voldemort, helping
him to understand Voldemort, but he tells him nothing about Snape.
He's discomfited when Harry demands answers, and he evades the
question with a piss-weak answer that Snape was sorry for his
involvement in the prophecy and the subsequent death of Harry's
parents, and then he tells him that he'll tell Harry more later.
Harry cannot know what is happening with Snape, and he cannot be
trusted. A Leglimancer like Voldemort will have no trouble stripping
any information or belief that Snape is a spy if Harry is caught. He's
not yet competent. And he cannot get over his hurdle of hating Snape.
And this is after Dumbledore has promised to tell Harry everything.
This is something he cannot tell, cannot risk, or it risks the
placement of Snape right where he needs to be.



8/ Dumbledore takes Harry with him to get the next Horcrux because
he's not sure he's going to be able to get back, and when they do make
it back, with Dumbledore grievously wounded, he's completely focussed
upon Harry getting Snape. When they are told of the Dark Mark above
Hogwarts, Dumbledore is anxious to get back.
Dumbledore begged Harry to kill him in the cave, desperate to die, but
Harry brought him through it. His obedience allows Dumbledore to do
what must be done, and he's trusting that Dumbledore is right. When
they return to Hogsmeade, Dumbledore is not looking for treatment,
he's knowing instead that his time is short and it's time has come for
them to play that hand. He is out of the game in one last, desperate
all-or-nothing gamble. And for that, he needs Snape. Snape is
essential to the game, and Harry's role in this play is over. Which
leads nicely to this following point...

9/ Dumbledore immobilises Harry
The desperation for Harry to get Snape becomes irrelevant when Draco
comes through the door. Here it is - the play to save Draco, and
failing that, to get the greatest leverage possible from Dumbledore's
death. Harry's active presence can be nothing but a hindrance, so he
is made an observer instead. And if Dumbledore was genuinely
interested in saving his own life, there is no possible way that he
would have wasted his time on immobilising Harry.

11/ Albus' death
Oh, the desperation of this moment. Four Death Eaters, Draco, Albus
and Snape. And this is it, the moment when Snape is in the crucible,
the last desperate play that will bring salvation through ruin, or
salvation and ruin.
"Severus..."
There is a moment when there eyes are locked - and Dumbledore and
Snape are both Legilimencers and Occlumencers. How is it not possible
that there is a passage of thoughts, of feelings, of memories between
them? There must be, and Severus' face is twisted with revulsion and
hatred. How can it not be? For himself, at his capacity to do this one
final thing. For Albus, for bringing them to this point and for
demanding this sacrifice of him. For everything about this terrible,
terrible moment of sacrifice and pain, desperation and determination.
And Severus strikes. Then runs, as he must.
It is widely believed that Dumbledore was pleading fo his life, but by now I should have proved that this does not make sense, that Dumbledore knew he would die, and was not afraid to, especially in that his death would save Snape, Draco, and the other Malfoys.

12/ When chasing Snape, Harry throws curse after curse at him. Snape
throws them all off, and taunts him.
Snape stops Harry from performing an Unforgivable. "No Unforgivable
Curses from you, Potter!" He blocks him, and he does not strike back.
"Blocked again, and again, and again until you learn to keep your
mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!" and it's a sneer, and it's
total absolute truth. Someone strikes at Harry with what must be a
Crucius, and Snape stops it. Then Harry attempts to use Snape's own
curse against him, and Snape strikes, throwing Harry backwards, but
still, still not hurting him.

And then he calls Snape a coward, and Snape in this moment of
desperation breaks. Snape has just sacrificed everything in a moment
that surely must have been harder than dying - he has just killed the only one who ever trusted him, the only one who believed he could redeem himself.

He strikes once. Whether he would have struck again is a moot point,
because of the attack of Buckbeak.

I believe that this battle was an opportunity for Snape to take Harry
from the field and serve him up to Voldemort triumphant, as betrayer
and capturer for his Dark Lord. And I believe that because he didn't
take the opportunity, it is all false, and Snape is still saving
Harry, as he has done before.

Empress_Kat
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-okonomiyaki o konomu-

PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:11 pm


Way to sum up pretty much all of the arguments. I completely agree, and I also want to add that Dumbledore gave Snape the DADA position knowing full well that it is jinxed and that Snape, therefore, would not be returning the next year.

Doing this will put Snape in Voldemort's complete trust, which will allow him to help take him down from the inside. Obviously, Snape knows about the horcruxes, so I wonder if he won't be trying to destroy them as well, or at least trying to get information about each of them (though how he could get that information to the good side I can't tell).

I actually like Snape a lot better now than I used to (though I still would never want to be taught by him).

I really hope something happens in the next book that allows both Snape and Harry to see each other as they really are, not as how they assume them to be, and to at least respect each other, if nothing more than that.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:58 pm


What really threw me for a corkscrew was when Snape admitted to being the Half Blood Prince...although I had my suspicions from the Potions classes and the description of the handwriting...I think (Don't quote me on this though...i haven't reread the books yet) that a descrption of Snape's handwriting was given in a previous book. It was the Handwriting that brought me to my conclusion.

darkangeloflight14


-okonomiyaki o konomu-

PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:09 pm


darkangeloflight14
What really threw me for a corkscrew was when Snape admitted to being the Half Blood Prince...although I had my suspicions from the Potions classes and the description of the handwriting...I think (Don't quote me on this though...i haven't reread the books yet) that a descrption of Snape's handwriting was given in a previous book. It was the Handwriting that brought me to my conclusion.

"Snape's Worst Memory" in OotP is where it was mentioned before. Personally, my own reasoning was kind of out there and not very solid (had to do with parallels and DADA patterns in the books...); I completely missed the handwriting clue.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:13 pm


Check the books and see if there is any mention of how the grades/comments are written on the Potions papers. I'm almost certain that there's a description somewhere. I guess I know what I'm doing tomorrow. *grins half-heartedly*

darkangeloflight14


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:57 pm


snape has his reasons for everything he does but hs far from evil. just read the seventh book it tells alot.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:12 pm


jasperslamb
snape has his reasons for everything he does but hs far from evil. just read the seventh book it tells alot.
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Sweetie, you need to look at the date of the responses on this thread. The last one before yours is from 05, 2 years before book 7 was released. I'm sure that all of these people have read it, and that they now have a better understanding of why he was the way he was. When you go back pages in the guild and start pointing things out to people, you may want to check the dates so that you know what they could have known at the time of the conversation. Some of these threads are incredibly old, after all.

And now, my history with dear, dear Severus Snape.

When I first read SS, I hated Snape, with a passion. Not because he was evil, not because everyone thought that he was the one working for Voldemort, but because he was a jerk. I didn't like how he treated his students, I didn't like how he handled Quirrel. He should have told Dumbledore what was going on, and nothing gives a full grown adult the right to act so immature towards children. Act your age. No matter how much he hated Harry's father, those feelings should not have impacted how he treated Harry as a student. It was unprofessional, no matter what the reason.

Nothing happened to change my opinion even a little, until PoA. Which made me hate him more. Because I loved Sirius. Even when everyone thought he was a bad guy. Accusing Lupin of letting Sirius in made me so mad, and then the entire scene in the Shrieking Shack made me mad. I decided that he was my least favorite character.

Then the book that made people who were so sure he was a good guy think he was a bad guy came out. And I actually liked him. And I didn't think he was a bad guy. I don't know why. But I decided in that book that I liked him. And now he is one of my favorite characters. Go figure.
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:58 pm


I always liked Severus. In PS/SS I thought he was delightfully creepy. There were plenty of intelligent adult characters, such as Dumbledore and McGonagall, whom I liked and respected. However, there was something so dark about Severus' intelligence that intrigued me.

As the series progressed, he saved Harry many times (such as from werewolf-Remus in PoA) when it would've been easy to let Harry get killed and claim it was an accident and there was nothing he could've done to help. I knew that Severus couldn't actually want Harry dead. I thought (and still do think) that Severus genuinely despised Harry because of what memories he brought to mind, but he didn't truly wish harm to come to him.

None of my friends believed Severus was on the "good" side from the start, and after HBP it was IMPOSSIBLE for me to convince them that he was. I told them Severus and Dumbledore planned Dumbledore's death because he said, "Severus, please..." instead of "Severus, please, save/help me." They thought I was delusional. Needless to say, I got many apologies after DH was released. cool

I never thought how he treated his students was fair. People give him slack for how he treated Harry due to James, but what excuse did he have for bullying Neville? In spite of how completely unjustly he treated his pupils, I still like him. I can't help it; he just...fascinates me. I've never been attracted to him in a romantic way, but I certainly understand how someone could be. He's so clever, powerful, controlled, and passionate with a life that was full of an enormous amount of darkness.

Severus isn't my favourite character in the series (He's in my Top Ten, though. wink ) but I do find him to be the most interesting.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:11 pm


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Oh, I didn't ever once think he was really a bad guy, and I didn't think that he wanted Harry to really get hurt. I just didn't like his attitude. At all. He made me so completely angry. But in HBP, I really liked him. He jumped straight from my bottom 2 slot (I hated Umbridge more than him after OotP) to my top ten.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:40 am


i love Snape smile
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