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 Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:08 am
Job 16:19 Even now, in fact, my witness is in heaven, and he that vouches for me is on high. This comes close to the end of Job's response to Eliphaz in the Book of Job. I read this a few weeks back and it made me stop of think. Who is Job talking about here? Is it a specific angel or somesuch? If so, why the relative obscurity? Are they an antithesis to Satan, as presented in this book (Job 2)? Passage from NRSV Bible.
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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:02 am
Quinn+hisQuill Job 16:19 Even now, in fact, my witness is in heaven, and he that vouches for me is on high. This comes close to the end of Job's response to Eliphaz in the Book of Job. I read this a few weeks back and it made me stop of think. Who is Job talking about here? Is it a specific angel or somesuch? If so, why the relative obscurity? Are they an antithesis to Satan, as presented in this book (Job 2)? Passage from NRSV Bible.what the heck are you talking about, can we please see more context than that, because that just leaves me for speculation, like if Job is talking about a preexistant Christ or possibly just Yahweh.
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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 9:31 am
NewFoundLight what the heck are you talking about, can we please see more context than that, because that just leaves me for speculation, like if Job is talking about a preexistant Christ or possibly just Yahweh. Certainly. Job 16 Job Reaffirms His Innocence
Then Job answered:
‘I have heard many such things;
miserable comforters are you all.
Have windy words no limit?
Or what provokes you that you keep on talking?
I also could talk as you do,
if you were in my place;
I could join words together against you,
and shake my head at you.
I could encourage you with my mouth,
and the solace of my lips would assuage your pain.
‘If I speak, my pain is not assuaged,
and if I forbear, how much of it leaves me?
Surely now God has worn me out;
he has made desolate all my company.
And he has shrivelled me up,
which is a witness against me;
my leanness has risen up against me,
and it testifies to my face.
He has torn me in his wrath, and hated me;
he has gnashed his teeth at me;
my adversary sharpens his eyes against me.
They have gaped at me with their mouths;
they have struck me insolently on the cheek;
they mass themselves together against me.
God gives me up to the ungodly,
and casts me into the hands of the wicked.
I was at ease, and he broke me in two;
he seized me by the neck and dashed me to pieces;
he set me up as his target;
his archers surround me.
He slashes open my kidneys, and shows no mercy;
he pours out my gall on the ground.
He bursts upon me again and again;
he rushes at me like a warrior.
I have sewed sackcloth upon my skin,
and have laid my strength in the dust.
My face is red with weeping,
and deep darkness is on my eyelids,
though there is no violence in my hands,
and my prayer is pure.
‘O earth, do not cover my blood;
let my outcry find no resting-place.
Even now, in fact, my witness is in heaven,
and he that vouches for me is on high.
My friends scorn me;
my eye pours out tears to God,
that he would maintain the right of a mortal with God,
as one does for a neighbour.
For when a few years have come,
I shall go the way from which I shall not return. Basically, Job's life has fallen apart through no fault of his own. His children are dead, his servants killed and his livestock stolen, he has nothing left. So he wonders why this could have happened; he was a good and righteous man. His friends, Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar, come and talk with him, explaining that "bad things happen to bad people" and that if he repents, God will forgive him. However, Job protests, in speeches like the above, that he is innocent. What I'm interested in is that Job believes that, despite all he's been through, there is still someone in Heaven that will take his side, a kind of Divine Defence Attorney. I would like to know who he's talking about.
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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 12:11 pm
Quinn+hisQuill NewFoundLight what the heck are you talking about, can we please see more context than that, because that just leaves me for speculation, like if Job is talking about a preexistant Christ or possibly just Yahweh. Certainly. Job 16 Job Reaffirms His Innocence
Then Job answered:
‘I have heard many such things;
miserable comforters are you all.
Have windy words no limit?
Or what provokes you that you keep on talking?
I also could talk as you do,
if you were in my place;
I could join words together against you,
and shake my head at you.
I could encourage you with my mouth,
and the solace of my lips would assuage your pain.
‘If I speak, my pain is not assuaged,
and if I forbear, how much of it leaves me?
Surely now God has worn me out;
he has made desolate all my company.
And he has shrivelled me up,
which is a witness against me;
my leanness has risen up against me,
and it testifies to my face.
He has torn me in his wrath, and hated me;
he has gnashed his teeth at me;
my adversary sharpens his eyes against me.
They have gaped at me with their mouths;
they have struck me insolently on the cheek;
they mass themselves together against me.
God gives me up to the ungodly,
and casts me into the hands of the wicked.
I was at ease, and he broke me in two;
he seized me by the neck and dashed me to pieces;
he set me up as his target;
his archers surround me.
He slashes open my kidneys, and shows no mercy;
he pours out my gall on the ground.
He bursts upon me again and again;
he rushes at me like a warrior.
I have sewed sackcloth upon my skin,
and have laid my strength in the dust.
My face is red with weeping,
and deep darkness is on my eyelids,
though there is no violence in my hands,
and my prayer is pure.
‘O earth, do not cover my blood;
let my outcry find no resting-place.
Even now, in fact, my witness is in heaven,
and he that vouches for me is on high.
My friends scorn me;
my eye pours out tears to God,
that he would maintain the right of a mortal with God,
as one does for a neighbour.
For when a few years have come,
I shall go the way from which I shall not return. Basically, Job's life has fallen apart through no fault of his own. His children are dead, his servants killed and his livestock stolen, he has nothing left. So he wonders why this could have happened; he was a good and righteous man. His friends, Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar, come and talk with him, explaining that "bad things happen to bad people" and that if he repents, God will forgive him. However, Job protests, in speeches like the above, that he is innocent. What I'm interested in is that Job believes that, despite all he's been through, there is still someone in Heaven that will take his side, a kind of Divine Defence Attorney. I would like to know who he's talking about. It could be Christ, I'm pretty sure it has to be Christ.
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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:38 pm
NewFoundLight It could be Christ, I'm pretty sure it has to be Christ. Mm, it's certainly possible. I had similar thoughts to begin with too. Though...Job only mentions this figure once in the book and it's not a regular view of the Messiah. Someone else suggested that it was God Himself that Job was referring to. That said, it could still be the Christ...
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Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 7:22 pm
Quinn+hisQuill NewFoundLight It could be Christ, I'm pretty sure it has to be Christ. Mm, it's certainly possible. I had similar thoughts to begin with too. Though...Job only mentions this figure once in the book and it's not a regular view of the Messiah. Someone else suggested that it was God Himself that Job was referring to. That said, it could still be the Christ... This is a Jewish book, and the only one that mentions the "Satan", translated as adversary. I think Job believes that G-d will help him.
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Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:00 pm
Quinn+hisQuill NewFoundLight It could be Christ, I'm pretty sure it has to be Christ. Mm, it's certainly possible. I had similar thoughts to begin with too. Though...Job only mentions this figure once in the book and it's not a regular view of the Messiah. Someone else suggested that it was God Himself that Job was referring to. That said, it could still be the Christ... tre, but then there's the Judeo description, that GOD is three seperate entities that are one, hence Jesus is the Christ, then he is a part of GOD etc.
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Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:04 am
NewFoundLight Quinn+hisQuill NewFoundLight It could be Christ, I'm pretty sure it has to be Christ. Mm, it's certainly possible. I had similar thoughts to begin with too. Though...Job only mentions this figure once in the book and it's not a regular view of the Messiah. Someone else suggested that it was God Himself that Job was referring to. That said, it could still be the Christ... tre, but then there's the Judeo description, that GOD is three seperate entities that are one, hence Jesus is the Christ, then he is a part of GOD etc. Sorry, that's NOT a Jewish interpretation. G-d is one entity in Jewish tradition. That interpretation is part of the Christian part of Judeo-Christian.
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Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:11 pm
RoseRose NewFoundLight Quinn+hisQuill NewFoundLight It could be Christ, I'm pretty sure it has to be Christ. Mm, it's certainly possible. I had similar thoughts to begin with too. Though...Job only mentions this figure once in the book and it's not a regular view of the Messiah. Someone else suggested that it was God Himself that Job was referring to. That said, it could still be the Christ... tre, but then there's the Judeo description, that GOD is three seperate entities that are one, hence Jesus is the Christ, then he is a part of GOD etc. Sorry, that's NOT a Jewish interpretation. G-d is one entity in Jewish tradition. That interpretation is part of the Christian part of Judeo-Christian. yes thats why I said Judeo-Christian.
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Posted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 7:01 pm
NewFoundLight RoseRose NewFoundLight Quinn+hisQuill NewFoundLight It could be Christ, I'm pretty sure it has to be Christ. Mm, it's certainly possible. I had similar thoughts to begin with too. Though...Job only mentions this figure once in the book and it's not a regular view of the Messiah. Someone else suggested that it was God Himself that Job was referring to. That said, it could still be the Christ... tre, but then there's the Judeo description, that GOD is three seperate entities that are one, hence Jesus is the Christ, then he is a part of GOD etc. Sorry, that's NOT a Jewish interpretation. G-d is one entity in Jewish tradition. That interpretation is part of the Christian part of Judeo-Christian. yes thats why I said Judeo-Christian. Read the bolded part of your post. You said Judeo, not Judeo-Christian. Also, it's a wholly Christian interpretation, not having anything to do with Judaism, really.
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Posted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:52 pm
I believe also that it is referring to jesus... Or God. either one. I cannot think of any other heavenly figure (that sounds really cool for some reason) that would fill the role...
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Posted: Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:14 pm
NewFoundLight Quinn+hisQuill NewFoundLight It could be Christ, I'm pretty sure it has to be Christ. Mm, it's certainly possible. I had similar thoughts to begin with too. Though...Job only mentions this figure once in the book and it's not a regular view of the Messiah. Someone else suggested that it was God Himself that Job was referring to. That said, it could still be the Christ... tre, but then there's the Judeo description, that GOD is three seperate entities that are one, hence Jesus is the Christ, then he is a part of GOD etc.
If I could see the passage in Hebrew I would bet anything that Job uses different names for God, and that he uses a different word to refer to this entity that "vouches for him on high".
In any case, it's dangerous to say Jesus is the one he refers to because that would imply that God is being the bad guy here and Jesus is the good guy. Unless they are playing "good cop, bad cop" or whatever, but that wouldn't make much sense.
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:05 am
roothands If I could see the passage in Hebrew I would bet anything that Job uses different names for God, and that he uses a different word to refer to this entity that "vouches for him on high". יט גַּם-עַתָּה, הִנֵּה-בַשָּׁמַיִם עֵדִי; וְשָׂהֲדִי, בַּמְּרֹמִים. 19 Even now, behold, my Witness is in heaven, and He that testifieth of me is on high. That's the verse I'm looking at, Roothands, and here's the next two verses which translate into English with God in them... כ מְלִיצַי רֵעָי; אֶל-אֱלוֹהַּ, דָּלְפָה עֵינִי. 20 Mine inward thoughts are my intercessors, mine eye poureth out tears unto God; כא וְיוֹכַח לְגֶבֶר עִם-אֱלוֹהַּ; וּבֶן-אָדָם לְרֵעֵהוּ. 21 That He would set aright a man contending with God, as a son of man setteth aright his neighbour! I hope that helps.
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Posted: Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:43 am
I think it literally says "witness" in Hebrew, but I think I'll wait for Stitches' confirmation on that. If so, that makes it all the more puzzling, although all the commentary I came across says that the witness in heaven is God (and it also points out that the word meaning "advocate" or "testifier" here is Aramaic), but that's NET commentary.
Also I came across this KJV translation:Job 16:19 Also now, behold, my witness [is] in heaven, and my record [is] on high. {on high: Heb. in the high places
Job is an interesting book because it was written much later than many of the other Hebrew texts, so it's quite different from earlier texts.
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