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Posted: Thu Feb 01, 2007 1:28 pm
I'd like to bring up if I may somthing which has played on my mind today...
I'm interested in answers from both perspectives (hence posting here)
xd
Imagine a woman who - neglecting to use contraception out of ignorance - becomes pregnant and quickly gets an abortion. (I don't want to go into second trimester abortions here)
ok
Now lets say that she again doesn't use contraception because she doesn't like it, and inevitably, becomes pregant once more...
Legally is there a limit to how many abortions one can have?
If she is denied multiple abortions as she is seen to be abusing the currently available choice, then what is to happen to the child destined to be brought up by such a mother?
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 2:21 am
There isn't a limit to how many abortions one can get, but the fact that it costs her $500 every single time she wants on would hopefully put such a person off unsafe sex.
And well, if not, then that's why Social Services are around. :3
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:22 am
There's no limit. If she's poor, she may be denied medicaid after a certain amount of them, but I'm not sure about that.
Ug. Social services. Foster homes and the current adoption system. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. I still think it's better than killing someone to keep them from being in that situation, it's just a horrible system right now.
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 6:48 am
Legally, I don't think so, but if you're asking *should* there be a limit, it depends on whether you think just one is bad or okay.
No woman with access to contraception would rather just have one abortion after another. They're not fun, they apparently still hurt even if you take RU-486, and even sitting in a waiting room is more tedious than taking a pill every morning or using a condom.
If I didn't have access to contraception, I would figure I'd better avoid vaginal sex altogether or at least become very familiar with my cycle--much better than having several abortions, no matter what your moral take on the procedure is.
If a woman neglects to use contraception, and ends up having 5 abortions and comes in wanting a sixth, it doesn't make sense to tell her no, have the damn kid and maybe you'll learn some responsibility. That would be using pregnancy as a punishment. But the pro-life argument for stopping her is not "learn some responsibility" but rather "stop taking innocent lives!"
Anyone would agree that if a woman ends up having multiple abortions, something's wrong. Either she needs better contraception, (or she needs to start using it) or she needs to learn to say no to unsafe sex, or something. If you're pro-choice, it's because you see abortion as a necessary fail-safe, not as super happy fun times. Maybe you don't see anything morally wrong with having ten abortions, but you have to agree there's a better alternative that should be implemented.
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:24 am
I wouldn't say that there should be a limit on how many abortions a woman can get. At least in the USA, abortions must be payed for by the women, and so it is the woman in question who is paying thousands of dollars because she doesn't feel like paying for condoms or the pill.
I can't imagine that forcing such an irresponsible person to keep a pregnancy would help her to realize that maybe using contraceptives might help prevent pregnancy. I fear that it would be more likely that she would just pop out children that she couldn't take proper care of and would end up in the foster or adoption system.
Good topic by the way!
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 7:27 am
La Veuve Zin But the pro-life argument for stopping her is not "learn some responsibility" but rather "stop taking innocent lives!" I would like to say that there are a very few people who call themselves "Pro-Life" and do seem to believe (or sometimes outright say) that pregnancy should be used as a punishment. I don't think I've ever run across one that was a member of the PLG, but I have seen one or two in the Debate, and a few on other internet sites.
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:32 am
WatersMoon110 La Veuve Zin But the pro-life argument for stopping her is not "learn some responsibility" but rather "stop taking innocent lives!" I would like to say that there are a very few people who call themselves "Pro-Life" and do seem to believe (or sometimes outright say) that pregnancy should be used as a punishment. I don't think I've ever run across one that was a member of the PLG, but I have seen one or two in the Debate, and a few on other internet sites. They're like the male choicers who are prochoice because they don't want kids and they'll do anything to convince their partners to abort even if the women don't want to, or the people who are prochoice because they genuinely don't like babies and think there should be less. These are the people who think couples should have a permit to reproduce. I wish I could say I've never met one from the PCG, but a long time ago, I did in the debate thread run by Nethilia. No one who's been active recently though. And there WAS someone who was in our guild because of the punishment thing, but he left because no one agreed with him. That was awhile ago. I've been here too long. They don't really hold true to the standards of the group, though. Of course, having a set, "Pro-life or Pro-choice" is a bit too black and white in my opinion, because if you want abortion to be legal, for whatever reason, you're considered pro-choice, even if you want it legal because you want to abuse 12 year old girls and abort anything that comes along that might expose you, same on the flip side. But that's REALLY off topic xd My point is, on both sides, there are people that don't really hold up their side's values.
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Posted: Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:47 pm
WatersMoon110 La Veuve Zin But the pro-life argument for stopping her is not "learn some responsibility" but rather "stop taking innocent lives!" I would like to say that there are a very few people who call themselves "Pro-Life" and do seem to believe (or sometimes outright say) that pregnancy should be used as a punishment. I don't think I've ever run across one that was a member of the PLG, but I have seen one or two in the Debate, and a few on other internet sites. *Psst!* We know. Now go tell the Pro-Choice Guild! gonk
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 3:05 am
Thanks to everyone who posted!
I'm still in two minds over it.
A few people made a really good point that denying her would be using pregnancy as a punishment, which should never be the case 3nodding , but that the life of the future child was valued even if she chose to veiw the pregnancy itself as a punishment.
This is partly the reason why I can't choose one side over the other... I don't think that abortion is morally right, I think I kind of see it from a utilitarian standpoint, even though i dislike utilitarianism, (which confuses me, then, that I can see its veiw here) that in some cases I can see why one would veiw abortion as "the lesser of two evils" which I think sways me to the choice side, but at the same time, my mistrust of the general public means that I don't think that an individual would always pick whichever side was "less evil" as people are inherently selfish in some ways... so I don't exactly think it should be as simple as "choice" either, swinging me towards life.
my head hurts.
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Posted: Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:36 pm
It's a really hard issue to decide on.
And believe it or not, I won't try to sway you either way xd
Ultimately, it's up to each person, and I can't tell you what you think is right. It took me awhile to be firm in my stance, but I got there.
I definitely understand seeing abortion as the lesser of two evils, but I don't agree with it, because to me, a fetus has the same value as a born person, and I wouldn't kill a born child to take that child out of an abusive home without putting that child in the adoption system. If I wouldn't do that to a born child and I value a born child the same as a fetus, I can't reconcile abortion being the lesser of two evils. If I didn't value the two lives equally, I definitely could.
Doesn't really have to do with the debate though, because it's an emotional appeal. It's like saying, "Oh but that baby could have been so happy!" It doesn't really matter. The thing that matters is, does pregnancy compromise a woman's bodily integrity, and if so, does that violation warrant killing the human invading her body given the circumstances that surround pregnancy. If you are pro-life, you believe that no, it isn't the human's fault it's in a woman's womb and shouldn't die for it. If you are pro-choice, you believe it is a woman's right to remove the invading human.
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Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:37 pm
lymelady If you are pro-life, you believe that no, it isn't the human's fault it's in a woman's womb and shouldn't die for it. If you are pro-choice, you believe it is a woman's right to remove the invading human. Addition to last sentence: if she chooses. Also, following a crazy line of logic, I once managed to work it that safe sex was irresponsible. : D I agree with lymelady though, where you stand is personal to you.
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Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:32 pm
if she chooses is implied in "right"- no right is forced on anyone, that would be backwards. no choicer (excluding some truly sick, deluded individuals) would want abortion as the only option. though it does seem that some, especiall those who make money off it, push harder for abortion than bringing the child into the world.
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Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 6:55 am
divineseraph though it does seem that some, especiall those who make money off it, push harder for abortion than bringing the child into the world. I disagree, at least somewhat. My sister used to be a counselor at an abortion clinic. All women getting abortions had to have at least once counseling session to make sure that they actually wanted the abortion and weren't being coerced by someone else into getting it. If they couldn't assert that the woman was sure about her choice, they wouldn't give her an abortion. I really don't have too much experience beyond this with abortion clinics. I'm sure that many of them do not live up to this standard. But I don't believe that many of them actively try to convince unsure women to abort.
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