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Trau Mir
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:47 pm


Good, I got your attention.

The question: Is cyberpunk dead?

Based on the latest atmosphere around here, the answer would be "yes." However, that is not a true indicator of anything; just because a bunch of geeks aren't posting rabidly in a forum does not indicate a passing of a zeitgeist. (And I'm happy to be here, I assure you!)

The reason for the question: After browsing through The Cyberpunk Project's website once again after being away for a long, long time (net-life: 2 years), I came upon the section of the site that asks this question. It got me to thinking about what I've been reading lately and the current status of my life.

The site, obviously, does not feel that cyberpunk is dead. The genre of science fiction might be dead and morphed into what can be considered "post-cyberpunk science fiction." Others (as linked on the site) seem to agree...but there is the view of the "fathers" of cyberpunk that say that it is dead.

Warning: The next 8 Paragraphs are personal, and in no way necessary for the full reading of my rant...unless you want to know where I come from. You can skip them if you want.

I've changed from what I once was. Back in the late 80's, I was a grungy kid who worked hard to understand the workings of everything in the off-chance that the Cold War would have a sudden cold snap and the s**t would hit the fan. I wouldn't say I was a survivalist (I was what? 10?), but I was scared shitless when I could understand what was going on, and, like everyone else, slowly grew comforted by the fact that if it did happen, we may never even know it happened. Mutually-assured destruction had a sort of comfort to it that was...well...neutral.

Then the wall fell. Communism was (essentially, from a capitalist viewpoint) gone! No longer a "threat."

The 90's saw me through a strange transformation; I was still the grungy kid (I was "grunge" before there was a "grunge") who began reading, after the coming of Terminator 2, cyberpunk lit. I devoured the literature. Then I found industrial and so on...I hated school because it didn't fit my needs. So on and so forth (it's called teen angst). As I saw computers change and advance, my anticipation grew...I would be living in the Sprawl. I would be a console cowboy. I would...go to college.

Again, it was a life-changing time...I started in psychology and skirted with the idea of minoring in computer science. I wanted to study artificial intelligence. I wanted to develop Wintermute, or something like it. Maybe even someday I'd be like Dixie Flatline. Again, things changed.

I found that I despised psychology because it could not explain to me the very barest of ideas that I wanted to explore. Sure, I could attempt to decode the human psyche like all the other scientists, but even that was...to but it bluntly, my adviser told me that I probably wouldn't get into graduate school for psychology without doing a stint of counseling. To hell with other peoples problems! I had too many of my own demons to deal with before I could even begin hearing the rants of other people (and, for those of you still reading this, I thank you!). So I turned to writing.

I found that I had a knack for writing. I found that I could describe my world...or the world I envisioned quite well. It wasn't a creepy coincidence that it looked like the Sprawl. It wasn't a creepy coincidence that my writing explored the psyche of the people living in that type of future. I "found" myself.

Again, things changed...authors change. Society changes. New ideas are born.

And I sit here, late at night/early morning, thinking about my aspirations for the future...about being a sci-fi writer...and facing the hard reality that I have a job interview tomorrow morning to teach high school English.

Resume here, if skipped.

William Gibson has stepped away from the genre with his last book, Pattern Recognition. It still has the Gibsonian air about it, but it's different; suddenly we're not thrust into the future, we're thrust into a world very much like our own...hell, it could be our own world. Chances are, it is.

Bruce Sterling has said that the age of cyberpunk has gone. In his book, Tomorrow Now: Envisioning the Next Fifty Years, he essentially tells us, from the viewpoint of a futurist, that the world envisioned by cyberpunk is gone...not because it will never happen, but because it has been consumed by society and it's now the "norm."

Personally, when I compare my life say 15 years ago to my life today, there are HUGE differences; I do spend a lot of time on the net, and not just playing around, but using it for research, job-finding, networking...everything that CP lit had hinted about. I still haven't cracked any black ice or smuggled guns in the former Soviet Union, but I'm still young (relatively speaking).

So what does that leave us with? Sterling writes in the aforementioned book,

Quote:
Genetic engineering is the twenty-first century's own new baby. In the century's dawn, biotech is its star turn. Biotech is by no means tomorrow's only major technologyl The twenty-first century has the whole technological family crammed under its roof, fork in hand at the trestle table, a vast clan of hungry transformations, many of them centuries old: printing, clocks railroads, electric power, radio, television, air flight, nuclear fission, satellites, and computation; it has the works. It's an orgy of sibling rivalry. But genetic engineering is tomorrow's native-born contribution to that family. It's the newest, the riskiest, and if it survives and flourishes, it will become the most powerful. Biotech is a baby Hercules that wants to kick the slats out of the crib.


He introduces us to a world that is much, MUCH different from a world suggested to us in the golden-age of cyberpunk. Are we living in a hollow society? Not really. Are we still grungy? In a way...but a good way. We have cells and mitochondria working for us...we have potentially bred viruses and good infections to help us fight diseases and bad infections. In a word, our world has become more natural...more green.

What gives? Is Sterling having flashbacks to the 60's? Has he become a tree-hugger? Not really...he also invites us to consider the idea that, with the help of computation, all of that data, all of that genetic information, is, for the most part, free to the public (ala the DNA project). Biological and chemical warfare can grow in that society.

Are we all going to look like supermodels? No, and he goes on at length about why we won't (I'll spare you the details). We will be tweaked, yes, but it will be tweaking so that we can cope. Essentially, there is no market for the "perfect human" in the future because, by the time that human reaches maturity, he's already a dinosaur, just as it happens in computer technology.

It's also interesting to note that last month Sterling wrote his last column for Wired magazine. In it he wrote about what the future holds. Guess what? It didn't have a whole lot to do with "cybertech." It had to do with DNA and biology.

The following month (this month), the feature of the same magazine was all about the "superhuman;" the human altered by genetics and biology. I'm willing to gamble that Mr. Sterling's prediction wasn't so short-sighted to be one month away. He meant more long-term.

Does that make the next wave biopunk?

Is that death just in literature? Keep in mind that literature tends to change a society...good science fiction writers have a way of "looking ahead" to what may be or what might be possible. The help us to dream. They help us to become. They put ideas in our heads.

Has cyberpunk been assimilated? It isn't exactly as it was explained to us, but the coincidences are stunning (1984 or Fahrenheit 451, anyone?). We live and thrive on the net...even the net, as it's first incarnation was born (free data) died like a fart in the wind and was replaced by the internet v.2.0 (mega-corporation-controlled). Isn't that cyberpunk?

Should we look to a new future? Biopunk?

Maybe I should have paid more attention in my biology classes and worked for an "A" rather than earned the "C."

Restatement of the question: Is cyberpunk dead?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:26 pm


It's not dead, it's just not shiny and new anymore. It used to be unexpected, then it aged and people just got used to it. On the topic of Genetic engineering, we already have the knowage and technology to make anything we want with DNA. It's really not new, it's just been under wraps until it was being tested and used.

Soviet Reunion


Trau Mir
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:07 pm


I don't think we can make anything yet, but we certainly have a good idea on how to accomplish that.

What do you think it would take to ressurect that shine? How could you make it new again?

Do we even need to?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 6:00 pm


Trau Mir
I don't think we can make anything yet, but we certainly have a good idea on how to accomplish that.

What do you think it would take to ressurect that shine? How could you make it new again?

Do we even need to?

Cyberpunk and Biopunk go hand in hand... I had never looked at them as 2 seperate instances, even in the cyberpunk RPG books, there are talks of the cloning vats, bioware, and the like... you can only splice so many genes before someone tries to meld skin and metal... Cyberpunk wasn't killed by biopunk, it didn't evolve into biopunk, biopunk is a step on the road to biopunk.

the more we know about genetics, the more likely it is we'll be able to combine bionics with mechanics... cybernetics is impossible without knowledge of the workings of the nervous and neural systems...

Chylde_Orchid


Trau Mir
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Thu Jan 25, 2007 8:58 pm


Chylde_Orchid
Trau Mir
I don't think we can make anything yet, but we certainly have a good idea on how to accomplish that.

What do you think it would take to ressurect that shine? How could you make it new again?

Do we even need to?

Cyberpunk and Biopunk go hand in hand... I had never looked at them as 2 seperate instances, even in the cyberpunk RPG books, there are talks of the cloning vats, bioware, and the like... you can only splice so many genes before someone tries to meld skin and metal... Cyberpunk wasn't killed by biopunk, it didn't evolve into biopunk, biopunk is a step on the road to biopunk.

the more we know about genetics, the more likely it is we'll be able to combine bionics with mechanics... cybernetics is impossible without knowledge of the workings of the nervous and neural systems...


I like that answer. To play the Devil's advocate, do you think that with the zenith of biotech, cyberpunk will be left in the dust? What happens when they start building organic computers?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:08 pm


Trau Mir
Chylde_Orchid
Trau Mir
I don't think we can make anything yet, but we certainly have a good idea on how to accomplish that.

What do you think it would take to ressurect that shine? How could you make it new again?

Do we even need to?

Cyberpunk and Biopunk go hand in hand... I had never looked at them as 2 seperate instances, even in the cyberpunk RPG books, there are talks of the cloning vats, bioware, and the like... you can only splice so many genes before someone tries to meld skin and metal... Cyberpunk wasn't killed by biopunk, it didn't evolve into biopunk, biopunk is a step on the road to biopunk.

the more we know about genetics, the more likely it is we'll be able to combine bionics with mechanics... cybernetics is impossible without knowledge of the workings of the nervous and neural systems...


I like that answer. To play the Devil's advocate, do you think that with the zenith of biotech, cyberpunk will be left in the dust? What happens when they start building organic computers?

I like to believe that as organic computers come about, the mechanical organism will answer as the equal and opposite reaction...

Chylde_Orchid


Trau Mir
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 9:48 pm


Chylde_Orchid
Trau Mir
Chylde_Orchid
Trau Mir
I don't think we can make anything yet, but we certainly have a good idea on how to accomplish that.

What do you think it would take to ressurect that shine? How could you make it new again?

Do we even need to?

Cyberpunk and Biopunk go hand in hand... I had never looked at them as 2 seperate instances, even in the cyberpunk RPG books, there are talks of the cloning vats, bioware, and the like... you can only splice so many genes before someone tries to meld skin and metal... Cyberpunk wasn't killed by biopunk, it didn't evolve into biopunk, biopunk is a step on the road to biopunk.

the more we know about genetics, the more likely it is we'll be able to combine bionics with mechanics... cybernetics is impossible without knowledge of the workings of the nervous and neural systems...


I like that answer. To play the Devil's advocate, do you think that with the zenith of biotech, cyberpunk will be left in the dust? What happens when they start building organic computers?

I like to believe that as organic computers come about, the mechanical organism will answer as the equal and opposite reaction...


Sort of like the "evolve or get left behind" idea. Interesting.
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:08 pm


Trau Mir
Chylde_Orchid
Trau Mir
Chylde_Orchid
Trau Mir
I don't think we can make anything yet, but we certainly have a good idea on how to accomplish that.

What do you think it would take to ressurect that shine? How could you make it new again?

Do we even need to?

Cyberpunk and Biopunk go hand in hand... I had never looked at them as 2 seperate instances, even in the cyberpunk RPG books, there are talks of the cloning vats, bioware, and the like... you can only splice so many genes before someone tries to meld skin and metal... Cyberpunk wasn't killed by biopunk, it didn't evolve into biopunk, biopunk is a step on the road to biopunk.

the more we know about genetics, the more likely it is we'll be able to combine bionics with mechanics... cybernetics is impossible without knowledge of the workings of the nervous and neural systems...


I like that answer. To play the Devil's advocate, do you think that with the zenith of biotech, cyberpunk will be left in the dust? What happens when they start building organic computers?

I like to believe that as organic computers come about, the mechanical organism will answer as the equal and opposite reaction...


Sort of like the "evolve or get left behind" idea. Interesting.

it's the only Idea I can stand behind, you either adapt, or you become an anachronism.

Chylde_Orchid


Lilium_nocturne

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:27 pm


I don't think its dead... its just currently under the radar of the latest generation... I had a teacher thought Dungeons and Dragons was dead ... but its making a comeback... I'm sure Cyberpunk will come around too... it just needs a kick-start or new twist... like a book with a new twist in the plot... or a new edition of the Cyberpunk 2020 tabletop RPG... It all comes full circle... ^_^
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2007 2:48 pm


KaienS.
I don't think its dead... its just currently under the radar of the latest generation... I had a teacher thought Dungeons and Dragons was dead ... but its making a comeback... I'm sure Cyberpunk will come around too... it just needs a kick-start or new twist... like a book with a new twist in the plot... or a new edition of the Cyberpunk 2020 tabletop RPG... It all comes full circle... ^_^


There is a new edition out. R.Tal put out v.3 not too long ago. My opinion, as a long time CP 2020 player, v.3 leaves a lot to be desired. It wasn't worth the 10 year wait for new material.

I agree with you that it's not dead.

Nifty Girl


Ophite

PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:58 am


True, pure, Neuromancer-style cyberpunk is effectively dead. Straight cyberpunk isn't written or well-received, anymore; it depended on a certain culture and a certain level of technology to spring from. But that doesn't mean that cyberpunk isn't an important and healthy genre today; like all things, it's just changing and branching out.

After all, it's possible to argue that the Tolkien definition of high fantasy depends on his knowledge of history and language, or on the political climate of his day; but I've never heard anyone say that high fantasy is dead, even though I've never read a recent book that had the same tone as Tolkien. (Not a perfect example, but maybe you can see what I'm getting at.)

There's cyberpunk books with humor and sarcasm instead of a constantly grim and serious tone, books that blend cyberpunk with other genres like noir, books that place cyberpunk in cultures other than the constant Western or Japan. My favorite example, and one of my favorite books, of what cyberpunk can be is Stephenson's Diamond Age, which mixes cyberpunk with elements from other genres like steampunk and "regular fiction" and history and even a touch of inspiration from fantasy. It's a beautiful book, and anyone who tries to say "That's not cyberpunk, it's.. post-cyberpunk!" or anything along those lines seem overly fascinated by their genre borders. If we all thought that way, then we wouldn't think something was sci-fi unless it was full of interstellar spaceships, and we wouldn't think something was fantasy without the obligatory tall, fair elves.

And of course, there's steampunk. Good steampunk is just time-shifted, culture-shifted cyberpunk. And one of the things that defined cyberpunk in its time was the use of alien, unfamiliar technology; as cyberpunk technology or near-equivalents is invented, of course cyberpunk has to change. The unfamiliar technology level can come from the past, the future, an alternate world, but with standard, familiar technology, or very easy to imagine technology, cyberpunk would fail.

A few years ago I played a cyberpunk pure-RP mu* that generally had the right tone for cyberpunk, but there was a lack of decking and AIs and drug abuse and those other things that seem to characterize Neuromancer's cyberpunk; instead genetic engineering, for better or for worse, was a focus, because as a possibly beneficial, but possibly terrifying technology that's hard to fully grasp right now, it worked just fine to give that sweet dystopian feeling that Gibson could get with cyberspace, decades ago. Cyberpunk is a feeling, and I think we will always be able to capture that feeling.


Postscript:
Outside of some of Burning Chrome ("Hinterlands"!), Neuromancer, and a large part of Count Zero, I don't even enjoy Gibson or get the cyberpunk feeling from his work. Some people feel he abandoned "us" with Pattern Recognition, but I didn't even feel most of the Bridge trilogy was cyberpunk; I liked the idea of the interstitial bridge community and the microstates, but that's about all I remember liking, writing quality aside. Since Gibson wrote so little pure cyberpunk, I think part of our problem in seeing cyberpunk is just the tiny size of our defining sample. Throw in, maybe, Snow Crash and When Gravity Fails, and it can be easier to see the cyberpunk tone in all its variety.
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:00 am


I'm glad to see that this thread is still read a little here and there...I know it was a rather long-winded way of asking a question of pure interest. I'd like to note that I still haven't come to any conclusions myself...I am, more or less, less concerned about genre than critics, but more concerned about the change in ideas.

BTW, Diamond Age was an excellent book; I think after I finished it, I flipped back to the front and re-read it. Stephenson is very talented...and encounters another problem I find with genre-- pigeon-holing. I dislike when an author gets "stuck" into one genre by critics, as if that's all they can write. Stephenson's Zodiac wasn't quite like Snowcrash, so it wasn't as well-received. The same can be said for Gibson's newer work (I haven't read the new book yet...), or some of Sterling's work (some saw Schismatrix as a space-opera type book).

Trau Mir
Vice Captain

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Cyberpunk Discussion

 
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