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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 9:26 am
I have been interested in Buddhism for a few years now, on and off. Using "Buddhist" as a label now and then has been inefficient at representing myself and my beliefs, particularly because there are many misconceptions about Buddhism from non-Buddhists, and many sentiments from other Buddhists that I do not share as I am finding now, to the point where I am not considered one of them. Buddhism is the closest thing to a religious philosophy I have ever adopted, but there are a few elements that are holding me back from shaving my head, taking any vows and joining a sangha, or even calling myself by the word "Buddhist" ~ While I have fallen in love with the ethics and psychology of general Buddhism, I have not fully accepted the metaphysical aspects of such as enlightenment, karma and rebirth. While these concepts can sound very convincing at times, when it comes down to it I cannot tell you what they are nor prove they exist.
I do not want to restrict myself to any one philosophy, if taking refuge vows means not adopting anything else, then I could never take those vows as I am not faithful. There are still other manifestations of knowledge to explore, particularly other Eastern philosophies.
Not getting along with other Buddhists, particularly in the political arena. The demographic is overwhelmingly left-liberal, and they are hostile to capitalism, gun rights, etc. or anyone who defends these positions that they have used Buddhism or compassionate/peaceful reasoning to demonize. It is quite isolating... they have a very pro-community, anti-rebellious attitude that is refreshing but too extreme for my taste. I have met a few conservative, libertarian, anti-government or moderate Buddhists that were a little more sensible than most... but not very many.
I could never be nothing more than a lay Buddhist anyway, I have aspirations in life that wouldn't make room for a devotional or monastic life. I certainly don't see that in the future.
There are just so many schools... I figured since I'm having problems getting comfortable in the general face of this religion I must not have found the right school, but not very easy for a multi-school religion where every denomination is quite ambiguous. By the way, I'm new to the forum, this is my first post. heart I joined this guild to get some much needed variety in the spiritual aspect of progression, while at the same time avoiding the hateful and judgmental. It's good to be here, nice topics.
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 1:59 pm
Welcome to our Guild! biggrin It's good to have more non-Pagan, non-Christian members here, for the sake of diversity.
I find Buddhism a very fascinating religion. For a while, I myself was looking into becoming Buddhist. I understand your problems and perhaps my post will help out a bit. Perhaps not.
The first thing that must be understood is that in some parts of the far East, the population of Buddhists is like the population of Christians here in America. In America 82% of the people are Christian and 1% is Buddhist. In Japan, 80% are Buddhist and 1% is Christian.
The reason this is important is because there are many people who call themselves Christian here in America but only go to church on holidays, or not at all. Some of these "nominal Christians" don't even believe in the teachings of the Christian faith, but consider themselves Christian simply because they don't *want* to be considered atheist. It's estimated only 36% of Americans attend regular church services. The exact same it true of Buddhism in Japan. Most people consider themselves Buddhist out of tradition, or because of family ties, but only 20% of people are estimated to practise the religion.
While I'm sure some of these nominally religious followers might be unsatasfied with their religion, many others are quite comfortable with it. They might follow part, or all of the beliefs, although not practise due to time constraints or not finding the proper crowd to join. They call themselves a member of that religion to feel that they continue to be part of something bigger.
I'm not sure if this relates to you or not, or if it helps. I have other ideas, but to keep this from becoming a really long post, I'll let you read this one before writing more.
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A Murder of Angels Captain
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Posted: Sun Jan 07, 2007 2:07 pm
Thank you A Murder of Angels, for the post and the welcome.
What you are referring to is people who call themselves by a religion and don't follow it, and while it is very true (and my only real problem with Christians) what I am struggling with is the dogmatism or dogmatic attitude of Buddhism and Buddhists, and the multitde of schools and ambigious nature of the Dharma.
I am both trying to fit into the niche and wondering if I should even bother.
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 2:47 pm
(I had a long post written up last night, but the internet died just as I submitted it, so I lost it. sweatdrop Let's see if I can duplicate that post.) I'm aware that you're likely not a nominal Buddhist. Like I said, I didn't want to write an obscenly long post and stopped where I was. In the mean time, I seem to have forgotten why I brought up nominal Buddhism. xd I'm sure you are already familiar with the three major schools of Buddhism, but I'll write about them for the knowledge of those who don't already know. There are three major schools, Theravāda, Mahāyāna, and Vajrayāna. The first two are Sutric schools, meaning philosophically based, and the last one is Tantric, meaning technique based. Vajrayāna stems from Mahāyāna. In addition to these major schools, there are many sects of each school, each believing or emphasizing different aspects. Take a look at this list and see if any might seem fitting for you. Each link goes to a page explaining a little bit about that specific school: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schools_of_BuddhismIf you can't find any help there, I sugguest finding a local Buddhist group, contacting the leader and asking for spiritual advice. I'm sure the leader of such a group will be fully understanding of your situation, and the advice you get from them would likely be the best advice you'll find anywhere. As far as metaphysical aspects of the religion, I personally thought that reincarnation and enlightenment were required beliefs to be Buddhist. I could always be wrong though. I've studied Buddhism briefly while considering it for my personal faith, but I've never looked at it in depth and I am by no means an expert. As far as political beliefs, I'm certain that has always been a personal matter. Buddhism in America didn't really arise until the 60s, which would have been the height of the Hippy movement. Because of this, many Hippy ideals have become synonomous with Buddhism. This is just a stereotype, and outside of America, especially in the East, many much more conservative Buddhists can be found. Another reason for the majority of Buddhists in America being liberal can be attributed to the connection that Christianity shares with Conservativism. Most liberals seem to be more open to and accepting of other religions, while most conservatives seem to be strict in their beliefs. This can be seen in groups such as the Religious Right. While I understand that they are not a majority in the US, several of their members are prominant Republicans, allowing Christianity to play a large role on the Right-wing side. On a side note, your mention of Capitalism reminded me of an article from National Geographic that I read about a year ago. It spoke of the rise of Buddhism in America, mentioning that there was an especially high rise among businessmen. One part of the article spoke of the Vice-President CEO of a successful company living on the street for a weekend in order to learn to apathize with the homeless. It showed a picture of him sleeping on a park bench. The article might prove inspiring to you. Here's a link to the web version of the article: http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0512/feature4/multimedia.htmlI hope the post proved more of a help than my last one. I especially feel that you should seek a local Buddhist priest to talk to, as asking an expert on the religion is the clearest path to travel.
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A Murder of Angels Captain
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:40 pm
It did, I appreciate the response and the links.
I don't know of any temples or places where I could find a teacher in my area, but I probably should look into it.
EDIT: The link to that National Geographic article isn't working. crying
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:52 pm
A Murder of Angels As far as metaphysical aspects of the religion, I personally thought that reincarnation and enlightenment were required beliefs to be Buddhist. I could always be wrong though. I've studied Buddhism briefly while considering it for my personal faith, but I've never looked at it in depth and I am by no means an expert. Well aside from any vows you could take, or what comes after devoting yourself to a monastic life, there really isn't anything "required" in Buddhism from what I can see. When I made it known to other Buddhists that I have difficulty adopting these metaphysical concepts, they tell me it doesn't matter because in time the Dharma will "reveal itself" to me. The Buddha himself said you should be concerned with your own state of suffering before you get lost in theories and concepts. (The quote about paying attention to the arrow, rather than where the arrow came from). I have some Buddhist beliefs, after reading some Thich Nhat Hanh I am more open to the idea of the impermanent, interdependent nature of things and that everything is empty of an independent existence, but my attachment to Buddhism (funny choice of word) doesn't stem much from my faith in it, so much as in the fact that I have felt more peaceful, happy and aware practicing meditation and Buddhist tantra more than anything else.
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A Murder of Angels Captain
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:35 pm
Melchior727 The link to that National Geographic article isn't working. crying confused That's strange. It works for me. First, make sure you have Flash installed. Then, go to nationalgeographic.com and in the search at the top of the page, type in "Buddha Rising". The web feature will be the link that says "Buddha Rising Multimedia." Hopefully that will work. Thanks for the info on the nature of Dharma. That is something I didn't know. The religion I ended up following is quite the opposite of the meaning of the arrow quote. Hermeticism is about learning as much as you can about the nature of the universe and a kind of enlightenment will follow.
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 9:49 pm
It's working now, very nice piece of flash. heart
I have never heard of Hermeticism, I'm reading about it right now.
Basically the arrow quote isn't commanding you to not look at the nature of the universe (the bowman) so much as you won't be able see the nature of the universe until the arrow is removed.
Enlightenment is omniscience through complete liberation of negative emotions and false concepts, which cloud your view.
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A Murder of Angels Captain
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Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2007 11:38 pm
Allow me to make a post which is somewhat off-topic. Hermeticism is quite advanced, and it took me years of studying to "get it." I'm even now just at the very beginning of my path as a student of the Hermetic arts.I didn't even consider Hermeticism a religion until very recently, as it is possible to belong to other religions and be Hermetic. However, as my studies grow more indepth, I came to realise that I don't really have any non-Hermetic beliefs, and so I now call it my religion. If you would like a good introduction to Hermeticism, from a fairly neutral source, look here: (Keep in mind, it is very advanced.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HermeticismThe major concept central to Hermeticism is the Kabbalah, which is taken from Jewish mysticism. Ironically enough, (and keeping this thread to the topic of Buddhism,) Kabbalah has been described by many as the "Zen of the West." The comparisson is made because (while not an accurate picture of Zen) Zen Buddhists make the use of koans to clear the mind until nothing is left and enlightenment is reached. The Kabbalah is about making connections concerning the universe until your head is so full that your mind snaps and "enlightenment" is reached. I related this to the arrow quote because while Buddhists would focus themselves on removing the arrow, Hermeticists would work to dodge the arrows by befriending the bowman. I understand that I may be looking at the quote in a slightly different context, but I am describing how my beliefs would use a different solution. And perhaps "enlightenment" was a poor use of wording in my last post. This post hopefully cleared it up for you. Hermeticists are open to enlightenment (one can be both Hermetic and Buddhist, or Christian, or Islamic, or almost anything) but are more focused on understanding how the universe works and putting this knowledge toward moving yourself closer to God.
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Posted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 3:36 am
Just a few thoughts. I was interested in Buddhism, and still am to some extent. It was through the book 'Destructive Emotions - And How We Can Overcome Them' (great book btw) that I was introduced to Buddhism, and especially Buddhist meditations. The nueroscience is at the moment making a strong case for the benefits of meditation, as is psychology.
However, after reading a bit of the neurosciences and psychology, it seemed to me that unbeneficial desires and negative emotions can never actually ever be completely eradicated, but that techniques and the training of the mind (via meditation) can limit the effect of impulses and negative emotions to a great extent, and create a higher baseline of happiness.
In short, I agree a lot with the states of mind the Buddhists are after, the techniques they use, and a lot of their philosophies such as existentialism). However, I just can't bring myself to believe something has no evidence to back it up, such as karma, rebirth, and nirvana.
As to the Buddhists here in Japan, I think even more are Buddhist in name only, and most Japanese Buddhists could be termed as 'funeral Buddhists', as they only go to temples or hold Buddhists ceremonies for a funeral or memorial service. It is just their family's tradition, and most Japanese here have beliefs in community and materialism (consumerism).
I have read that a lot of the actual more Buddhist countries like Thailand have populations of people that believe in Buddhism, but don't do some of the things like meditations that I consider the most beneficial for both the individual and community. They will build stupas, visit temples, and make offerings, but they just don't meditate. In fact, a Christian church was torn down by a village of Buddhists out of fear.
It would be interesting to see just what the situation there is. Perhaps I might find that a lot of Buddhists there don't actually know a lot about their religion, just as I know a lot of Christians that don't know theirs but attend church regularly. Since I have engaged in Christian apologetics and debate for a good three years, I find that I am often providing apologetics instead of those that are actually Christian, and I do get thanked at times for providing an answer that they couldn't come up with.
P.S. Another book I'd highly recommend is 'Flow - The Psychology Of Optimal Experience' by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. It's written from a secular perspective, and it provides some more natural explanations for the incredible feelings Buddhist and Hindus feel when they've reached a vey concentrated state of mind they call 'Jhana/Dhana/Samahdi'.
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