Welcome to Gaia! ::

Reply The Abortion Debate Guild
Sterilization without consent?

Quick Reply

Enter both words below, separated by a space:

Can't read the text? Click here

Submit

Should he be sterilised without consent?
Yes
62%
 62%  [ 5 ]
No
37%
 37%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 8


Shard Aerliss

PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:15 am


I was listening to a debate today on the radio about a 22 year old with the mind of child, who's parents want to get him steralised.
Read the story, then discuss. Should they be allowed to do this? Does gender make a difference? What are the implications if they do gain permission to do this?

BBC News Story
PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2005 9:31 am


Mental capacity, by law, may allow the parents to make decisions for individuals of the person regardless of age because of their handicapp.

So yes, if they feel it's best, then why not?

Kata Samoes


Shard Aerliss

PostPosted: Tue Jun 14, 2005 11:00 am


Sorcerer Kata Samoes
Mental capacity, by law, may allow the parents to make decisions for individuals of the person regardless of age because of their handicapp.

So yes, if they feel it's best, then why not?


In answer to your question; many people believe that being able to spawn is a human right, that everyone should be allowed to do it, and no one, no one at all, not even Mother Nature herself, should be allowed to remove that right without consent.

Also, if you start denying people the "right" to breed willy nilly because they "may not be able to take care of a child" due to a "mental handicap" who's to say where they will draw the line for that handicap...at someone with a low mental age, someone with a low IQ, someone with different ideas on how to raise a child?

One point raised was that he may find a woman who is willing to take care of the children and him.
PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2005 1:18 pm


Then let that argument settle amongst them. No one has a right to disallow parents from doing what they think is best for their child, unless it may place the child at risk of death or harm (on any level).

If you consider visectomies to be harmful, that is a personal opinion.

Kata Samoes


Shard Aerliss

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 4:29 am


Sorcerer Kata Samoes
Then let that argument settle amongst them. No one has a right to disallow parents from doing what they think is best for their child, unless it may place the child at risk of death or harm (on any level).

If you consider visectomies to be harmful, that is a personal opinion.


It may be considered to be harmful to his future development and to his own wants and needs. What is and is not harmful, right, wrong, good and bad is all personal opinion. You cannot prevent laws being made because that law is a personal opinion...Almost all laws would be deemed void.

It's my personal opinion the a foetus is a lump of cells with no rights, it is someone elses that it is not, it is human and has rights. So which way are you going to go with the law? Which ever you decide it is going to agree with someone's personal opinion, and be down to someone's personal opinion..

As for letting parents do what they think is best as long as it does not harm the child...spanking has been outlawed in many countries, even if it does not leave a mark...because it some peoples personal opinion that it is wrong and harmful...

Do you see what I'm getting at?

If I don't make sense...sorry I'm rushing cos I'm at work...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2005 11:16 pm


Shard Aerliss
Sorcerer Kata Samoes
Then let that argument settle amongst them. No one has a right to disallow parents from doing what they think is best for their child, unless it may place the child at risk of death or harm (on any level).

If you consider visectomies to be harmful, that is a personal opinion.


It's my personal opinion the a foetus is a lump of cells with no rights, it is someone elses that it is not, it is human and has rights. So which way are you going to go with the law? Which ever you decide it is going to agree with someone's personal opinion, and be down to someone's personal opinion..


On abortion, it shouldn't matter what my personal beliefs are of the fetus. It is the woman's choice of action, not someone else's.

Shard Aerliss
It may be considered to be harmful to his future development and to his own wants and needs. What is and is not harmful, right, wrong, good and bad is all personal opinion. You cannot prevent laws being made because that law is a personal opinion...Almost all laws would be deemed void.

As for letting parents do what they think is best as long as it does not harm the child...spanking has been outlawed in many countries, even if it does not leave a mark...because it some peoples personal opinion that it is wrong and harmful...

Do you see what I'm getting at?

If I don't make sense...sorry I'm rushing cos I'm at work...


*Editted this section of the quote for the direct subject matter being addressed.*

Now, that is where I say let them make their own choice. Should you force a woman to not punish her child because you think they're a bad parent and the child simply "does not know better"? Bad example, but good enough for my point.

Let the argument settle amongst themselves. No one outside of those involved should force one action or another. Perhaps only advise.

I apologize if you may not think I'm good at debating here, it's simply my point of view that I am expressing.

Kata Samoes


Shard Aerliss

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:57 am


((not criticizing your point of view))

It is your point of view that they be allowed to do what they like though. And it's someone elses that they not be allowed...that's where the debate springs up and we get to have fun and argue over it smile

Quote:

No one outside of those involved should force one action or another.


That is excactly where the problem lies. No one should force an action on another...but they are forcing this action on their son, without his consent ((simply because he does not understand the terms and conditions of what he would be consenting to)).

Rights change when you turn 18, children and adults do not have the same rights. For the most part this is a good thing in our imperfect world ((i.e. giving a 12 year old the right to have a full time job and buy their own home sounds great if you're a mature 12 year who is sick of being at home and could cope in the outside world. However, it would bring back child labour and make child slavery very easy to do)). However, when you have a human being that is chronoligacally an adult but metally a child the lines blur and difficulties arrise...
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2005 11:21 pm


I tend to think that if a person has been shown, through vigorous psychological testing, to be mentally at the state of say, a 6 year old child, then that makes them to me an 6 year old child - whether or not their body is 6, 15, 22, 92 or otherwise.

Can you imagine a 6 year old producing, then caring for a baby, then child? There is all possibility there that they could be a caring parent, but you have to consider that the mindset of an 6 year old is nowhere near the mindset of a person ten years their senior. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've never seen an 6 year old with the judgment or maturity anywhere close to an adult's. This is why I can see his parents worrying about the possibility of him fathering a child. To me this becomes not so much as his rights, as he clearly doesn't have the normal mental capacity or functioning as any other adult. This becomes more of a concern not of his rights, but of the safety of his potential children. Because of his condition he could pose a great risk to their safety, security, and mental health.

When I imagine a 6 year old I think of temper tantrums, and them playing house with dolls... then getting angry at each other and throwing the dolls into a wall or at each other. What if it was real house, and instead of a doll it was a child?

This is kind of along the same lines as people I imagine to be living in mental institutions and sanitariums. Whatever the set of standards are, somebody decides that those people aren't safe to be living with normal society, and so they are placed amongst each other in a safe, nurturing environment with caretakers who are educated in and understand their needs. They are still treated with respect and kindness like other human beings, but because of their mental condition - for the safety of themselves and others - they are disallowed certain things. These could be items like glass, rope, sharp objects, mirrors, people with extreme strange phobias or OCD where specific items are kept out of the facility, and then I am sure there are those who have been sterilized just for the safety reason.

What about this: if a 6 year old child showed to have the mental capacity of a 21 year old, should he be allowed to drink then? What if a 21 year old has the mental capacity of an 6 year old, should he be allowed to drink at all? It's something interesting to think about.

I would say that with this man's mental state, he would not be afforded all the same rights as other humans that are functioning normally. But, there may be a woman out there who wishes to bear his children, and raise them with assistance from him. I think if he had someone else helping him, who was at a normal mental capacity, their family might do fine (though with assistance). If this guy was a female however, I have a feeling some people might look at this issue differently altogether. However, the article says that he can't even take care of himself, so I doubt he would be able to take care of someone else.

The whole issue is just very complex, and it's interesting to think about, though I'm not sure what is the right action to take one way or another. I'm leaning more towards sterilization however... neutral

Separatist Nightmare

Toxic Hellhound


Shard Aerliss

PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2005 5:22 am


Hmmm, interesting thought on the gender side of things. There was a woman ((listened to a radio show with the parents and other people calling in to discuss the situation)) who spoke of her daughter, who is now only a child, but will never mature mentally. She wants to get her daughter steralised, as she fears that due to the girls condition she would be an easy target for a rapist, or just someone out to have sex and is happy to take advantage.

Of course, people are saying no. But their reasoning seems to be slightly skewed. The girl may meet a good caring man who, "being a man" will want children. She should be able to give him children as he may not be willing to stay with her if she can't spawn.

Funny huh? HE can't be steralised because HE may want kids. SHE cant be steralised because her future bloke may want kids...

This difference did not even occur to me until just now...
Reply
The Abortion Debate Guild

 
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games
Mini-Games
Play with GCash
Play with Platinum