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 Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2006 11:07 pm
In my English class we're discussing predestination, free will, existentialism, etc. and it made me think (of course) of Erik.
So...Do you think he was destined to his fate (a life of loneliness & misery) from birth, or did he bring it upon himself (by killing people & other er...not nice stuff)?
Obviously his appearance played a role, but was he born looking that way because his fate was already predestined, or did he "decide" that no one would ever love him because of his appearance, bringing the consequences unto himself?
Hmm, I wonder if he would be an existentialist...~dons beret, sips coffee~
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 12:41 pm
From his face he obviously wasn't going to be a fan with anyone at all. Murdering people made it even worse... along with the devil's child he would have the title as murderer.
From how everyone reacted toward him he figured no one would love him. He was right. His own mother would barely look at him.
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:39 pm
IlovetheAngelofMusic From his face he obviously wasn't going to be a fan with anyone at all. Murdering people made it even worse... along with the devil's child he would have the title as murderer. From how everyone reacted toward him he figured no one would love him. He was right. His own mother would barely look at him. *trys not to cry* Poor, unhappy Erik.... But I agree completely, if he wasn't really born looking to most people like the most wonderfuln thing, and being in a freak show didn't help either. I think he just thought since most people thought he was a demon, living dead boy that no one would love him. His father hated him and his mother wouldn't bare look apon his face... *is almost sobbing now* crying
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:53 pm
I think the whole predestined thing really is more a debate on what the individual believes. Me, I don't believe my fate has been set for me, so I can't say I agree that Erik's own life was fated as well.
But really, it mostly wasn't his fault how he was treated. In those days, those born with deformities or those who accumilated them over time were outcast. They were thought to be the physical representation of sin. So with Erik born (as far as we can guess) with such a disease or defect that made him a living corpse, it was no wonder his mother hated him as did the rest of the world.
Murder was simply Erik's way of exacting revenge on human kind for their hatred and fear of him. He couldn't redeem himself thanks to Religious nonsense, so he only thought to condemn himself further.
Now, he really could've lived anywhere, but he chose the Opera House because of his love for music. For all his physical afflictions and monstrous appearance, his mind and his voice were all of him that was beautiful. It tamed the savage beast, you could say.
He made choices that brought him to deeper unhappiness than the level he would have had, say, if he had just gone into seclusion in Russia or Persia and not further twisted his personality. By birth he was basically doomed to live in loneliness, so there was nothing to be done to redeem him from it.
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Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2006 2:49 pm
Just throwing in some random info here. I don't know if I really have an opinion on the subject. In this case I think it's relevant to this discussion to look at Erik's real-life counterpart, J. Merrick. They were both horribly deformed, lived in the same time period, were born in similar (comparitively) places, were both abandoned or neglected by their parents, and were both exhibited in sideshows from an early age. You could even say that Merrick had it worse because his deformitiy left him physically impared and wasn't easily disguised. Erik was still perfectly healthy and could hide himself with a mask or a hood. But despite the similar circumstances, Merrick remained an empathetic, sensitive person (even before he was 'rescued') and Erik, in a word, didn't. Another thing is, the mid 1800's were not the dark ages a lot of people think them. Unless he just had the worst luck in the world, Erik would not have been treated as badly as all that. Yes, he would have gotten a lot of ire from countryfolk and the generally small-minded, but nothing much worse than he would get today. In fact, getting into the Victorian era, it was considered highly stylish in some circles to be friends with someone who was deformed or disfigured. It was a sort of polite, drawing-room version of a freak show. So I don't think it's safe to say that he would have been outcast and hated, etc, by all of humanity... Quote: His father hated him and his mother wouldn't bare look apon his face... IIRC, the line is just that his father never saw him. We don't know for sure that he hated him, just that he never saw his face and that he was, presumably, 'horrified' to some degree. And because I'm already on this soapbox... xD Does it actually say anywhere in Leroux that he was in a freakshow or is that just SK leaking through? I remember the line as just saying something about him appearing in a long line of traveling faires, and that tales of his feats reached the Shah from there. I could be wrong, but considering his ingenuity and skill, we can't assume that he was getting by on his looks, so to speak. Is it not equally possible that he was performing as a 'masked magician' or something along those lines? Even if he was exhibiting himself as a freak, it seems implied that it was a willing thing. We can't assume that he was miserable there. At the time, the better run freakshows had people clamouring to be in them because it was such a comfortable job.
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Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 6:02 pm
I believe that all days are written in the Book of Life
If you have ever heard of Casting Crowns and the song "Love them like Jesus" there's a line in there that I think of everytime I see/hear/watch Phantom:
"We don't need the answers to all of lifes questions"
I don't think it was Eriks fault at all...
Maybe his mom and dad did something wrong...
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Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 7:16 pm
I personally don't believe in fate, so I think that Erik brought his predicament on himself by killing.
But having a disfigured face was totally not his fault. xp
Forgive me if this seems like a stupid answer, for I am not as deeply in love with PotO as everyone else in this guild is. cry
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Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:38 pm
eriks_greaser_girl I believe that all days are written in the Book of Life If you have ever heard of Casting Crowns and the song "Love them like Jesus" there's a line in there that I think of everytime I see/hear/watch Phantom: "We don't need the answers to all of lifes questions" I don't think it was Eriks fault at all... Maybe his mom and dad did something wrong... I looove that song. D: It's so sad. I could see that as a wonderful music video of Phantom! Does Anybody Hear Her would be pretty too. Except the song is about a girl, buut it starts of as 'he is running a hundred miles an hour... in the wrong direction' he would be like the continuation.
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Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 3:16 pm
-DancingThroughLife- eriks_greaser_girl I believe that all days are written in the Book of Life If you have ever heard of Casting Crowns and the song "Love them like Jesus" there's a line in there that I think of everytime I see/hear/watch Phantom: "We don't need the answers to all of lifes questions" I don't think it was Eriks fault at all... Maybe his mom and dad did something wrong... I looove that song. D: It's so sad. I could see that as a wonderful music video of Phantom! Does Anybody Hear Her would be pretty too. Except the song is about a girl, buut it starts of as 'he is running a hundred miles an hour... in the wrong direction' he would be like the continuation. I agree. If I could make Music Videos, that would be one of the first ones. *nodnod*
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Posted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:44 pm
Utakan I think the whole predestined thing really is more a debate on what the individual believes. Me, I don't believe my fate has been set for me, so I can't say I agree that Erik's own life was fated as well. But really, it mostly wasn't his fault how he was treated. In those days, those born with deformities or those who accumilated them over time were outcast. They were thought to be the physical representation of sin. So with Erik born (as far as we can guess) with such a disease or defect that made him a living corpse, it was no wonder his mother hated him as did the rest of the world. Murder was simply Erik's way of exacting revenge on human kind for their hatred and fear of him. He couldn't redeem himself thanks to Religious nonsense, so he only thought to condemn himself further. Now, he really could've lived anywhere, but he chose the Opera House because of his love for music. For all his physical afflictions and monstrous appearance, his mind and his voice were all of him that was beautiful. It tamed the savage beast, you could say. He made choices that brought him to deeper unhappiness than the level he would have had, say, if he had just gone into seclusion in Russia or Persia and not further twisted his personality. By birth he was basically doomed to live in loneliness, so there was nothing to be done to redeem him from it. Poor Erik. If only he'd been born in our time crying
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:37 am
i think he was somewhat destined to his fate. because he was born with that horible face but if he would have just worn his mask around and not been so stereotypical of the what the mormal humans thought of him he might have had a better life. but that is just a personal opinion.
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Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:26 pm
I'm not sure I entirely believe in destiny. Maybe a little.
In any case, I don't think it's ALL Erik's fault. I don't think he was destined to end up where he ended up. I think he could have made things better for himself.
Certainly, there were things that were outside of his control. His mother, for one. And a lot of people would have reacted poorly to his appearance. It seems he didn't meet enough of the sort who might be capable of looking past that.
However, everyone has the ability to control how they react to things and how they feel. Although for many people that's very difficult. Erik apparantly never learned how to do this. If he had had a better attitude towards everything, he could have had a better chance at a normal life. Perhaps if he had lived his life a little differently, people would have learned to see him as an intelligent and talented man, rather than a monster.
Of course, a lot of it goes back to experience, and upbringing (or perhaps lack thereof). But he could have gotten past that.
Then again, Erik isn't a particularly well-adjusted individual.
Which isn't entirely his fault, but then...he only did things to make it worse, not better.
In any case, I do not think Erik's fate was purely destiny. That would imply he would have ended up in the same situation no matter what he did. But I don't think that's the case. But he is not completely at fault (though I'm not sure "fault" is really the right word), because there were factors outside of his control. But there are also plenty of things he could have controlled, if he knew how, or cared to try.
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Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:21 pm
I'm more of the opinion that you control your own fate as well...but some people are just luckier than others, and Erik got the short end of the stick. You just have to make the best of your circumstances, and I think Erik could have tried harder to rise above them. He was certainly intelligent enough to...but I think insecurity is the hardest barrier to overcome.
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Posted: Sun Jan 28, 2007 2:58 pm
I think he brought some of this upon himself, in many situations depending on whether you have read the book by Leroux and seen the new movie. He can't help his face, he's born with it. It's not like they have plastic surgery then, or he's go there and be a stud in no time. But with all due seriousness, there are children, adults, and elderly people who have facial deformitys not unlike Erik's. They have to walk around every day with those, just like him. He would not have been shunned if he walked this earth today, he would be like them, in a way.
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