Welcome to Gaia! ::

The Physics and Mathematics Guild

Back to Guilds

 

Tags: physics, mathematics, science, universe 

Reply The Physics and Mathematics Guild
Quantam mechanics vs general relativity: Un-unitable?

Quick Reply

Enter both words below, separated by a space:

Can't read the text? Click here

Submit

....
 
View Results

tyrandan

150 Points
  • Beta Consumer 0
  • Beta Explorer 0
  • Beta Gaian 0
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:05 am


Can these two be united? Let me present this metaphor:

Think of this.
Three cells make up an organism. Keeping track of these cells chould be easy, right? Temperature, movement, speed, food intake and waste output.

Then think of six cells. A little harder, but definately trackable.

Now 15. At this point you start making minor errors, getting cells mixed up, and end up making mistakes that lead to failure in some errors.

OK, now 25. At this point, your exhausted, your head is probably spinning, and you make errors that fail the entire experiment.

Now bring it up a notch or two. 50. Organs become recognizeable, so you begin grouping the organism. Labeling different areas. This eases some pressure, and makes things better.

Now, lets go to 1000. You may be tinking, screw that i'm going home. But organs begin to become even clearer, and small subsections of those organs as well. You then get to have fluids of sorts, and as long as you know where they come from and where theyre going your set.

Now, the leap. 1 billion. you start wondering if your insane, but at this point external features are entirely recognizeable and systems begin to emerge. You can't keep track of everything, Temperature and intake and movement etc., but organs are very simple to manage at this point.

Thats the role of general relativity. A few atoms are nice, but a solar system or even a planet are impossible. But keeping track of the grouped areas of these places might be possible or plausible.

What do you think?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:31 pm


They are already united by their own exsistance.

Let me elaborate:
Spacetime Fabric runs through everything no?
So the same spacetimefabric that runs through a single atom is also applied to the sun or perhaps a black hole.

If you can understand the nature of the proteins and DNA making up the cell, you can loosely track the whereabouts and status of each cell. By that you could decifer a large oragan at any one point in time to figure out the smallest contents of it.

But.. thats up to string theory

So my main point is,
they are already connected,
we just fail to find the answer [yet]
There are obvious errors in one or both theories
*coughquantummechanicscough*

[personally, I hate quantum mechanics, Its based on a freaking technicallity in my opinion]

I ate your Sex


Cynthia_Rosenweiss

PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 11:13 pm


I would actually think that Quantum Mechanics would have the advantage over General Relativity, given that QED is allegedly the most corroborated scientific theory ever.
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:27 am


Cynthia_Rosenweiss
I would actually think that Quantum Mechanics would have the advantage over General Relativity, given that QED is allegedly the most corroborated scientific theory ever.

QED has the most precise prediction in physics: it correctly predicts the gyromagnetic ratio of the electron to eight decimal places [at tree level in perturbation theory it is correct to three or four, I think; higher order corrections take the agreement all the way out to eight]. That's not to say that GTR is not also extremely well tested.

A big problem in QFT is that we have to rely on perturbation theory to solve most equations. For QED this is not problem because the coupling is small at low energies; the coupling for low energy QCD is large and breaks the small perturbation approximation.

I ate your Sex
They are already united by their own exsistance.

You can argue that but GTR and QM are mathematical frameworks which seek to model the workings of the universe. What they model is united but that does not mean the two models but be compatible with each other. Both may only be effective theories and can never been combined. That does not mean we will never have a unified framework, just that it may not be GTR or QM at its core.

I ate your Sex
[personally, I hate quantum mechanics, Its based on a freaking technicallity in my opinion]

Which technicality?

A Lost Iguana
Crew

Aged Pants

9,100 Points
  • Millionaire 200
  • Profitable 100
  • Money Never Sleeps 200

I ate your Sex

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:56 am


A Lost Iguana

Which technicality?


The Uncertainty Pricipal.
Its so annoying,
Just because we don't have the intelligence to measure a partical doesn't mean its not measuarble. On top of that, It doesn't mean that the particle's measuments do or do not exsist. The particle does not act in a random way, there is a cause and affect for everything. Once again, it is lacking of our intelligence to find it so we just slap on some probability to make it all better. Its easier to say that "anything" could happen to a particle then to look for more variables in it's nature I suppose.

I Can't beleive he plays dice.
confused
PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:29 am


May I first suggest that you cannot glibly state that "there is a cause and affect [sic] for everything"? You can assume this as an axiom but it is not a self-evident truth, so you must acknowledge that it alone is not enough to overrule things your believe to violate it. [As an aside, if there was no such thing as an "uncaused action" then how would action begin in the first place? But that is going down a path I do not with to travel.]

If you wish to argue against the axioms and interpretations of quantum mechanics then you are free to do so; however, it is very well tested system and is the best — with the greatest explanatory and predictive power — way to explain non-relativistic sub-atomic phenomena.

I lean toward a instrumentalist view of science, so I really do not find this a problem. If it works as a model of reality, then it is a good model of reality. That's not to say that reality is what the model suggests.

A Lost Iguana
Crew

Aged Pants

9,100 Points
  • Millionaire 200
  • Profitable 100
  • Money Never Sleeps 200

Layra-chan
Crew

PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2006 1:21 pm


I wouldn't really call the Uncertainty Principle a technicality. It does arise from the axioms of QM, rather than the other way around. You'll find out more about this as your QM course progresses.
Of course, you could use the Uncertainty Principle as an argument that QM is wrong, and many people have; deterministic theories are usually favored over non-deterministic ones. This should not be taken as "proof" that deterministic theories are more correct; for all we know, God is a compulsive gambler. There might not be any cause for any given effect, nor must there be a single set of effects for any given cause; that is a philosophical decision that, while it does underlie most science, cannot be taken as absolute truth, and if the data contradicts it, one must be ready to discard it. Any and all generalities about the universe must submit to data in the end, and so far the data supports the Uncertainty Principle.
Phenomena that can be easily explained by the Uncertainty Principle do arise, and not only in terms of measurement. The Bose-Einstein condensate for example, could arguably be the result of a tight bound on the velocities causing a large uncertainty in the positions of the particles in the condensate, leading to the "unified" effect of BE condensates. No matter how strange it is, QM effects have been detected and therefore QM cannot be dismissed out of hand. Any theory that replaces it will have to approximate QM as some sort of limit, given how accurate QM has been so far.
PostPosted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:08 pm


Here's an article that outlines the approaches that scientists could take in lieu of string theory. The theory listed are:

Twistor String Theory

Loop Quantum Gravity

Causal Dynamical Triangulations

Non-Commutative Geometry


To this I'd add Heim theory.

Cynthia_Rosenweiss

Reply
The Physics and Mathematics Guild

 
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get GCash
Offers
Get Items
More Items
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games
Mini-Games
Play with GCash
Play with Platinum