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I am fully willing to delete this thread if it offends anybody.

I doubt everybody here would appreciater this, but I guess to know me you'll have to know my beliefs. I am a member of the Pro-Life guild. I did not join for religious beliefs. I do not hate children. I do not hate women. I believe in life, love and equality. Please don't flame me. whee Just understand that I have these beliefs whether you agree or not, and keep any debating inside this thread.

I am going to share with you all an argument I made today.

Foucault -

"Gays and the unborn have an important characteristic in common: In the minds of many people we are considered less than human."

Foucault was a gay philosopher who made arguments about what is and isn't natural.

He observed that throughout history those who were considered more natural (i.e. black people, women, children) were often considered less than human and so were treated differently. These people were seen to be closer to nature, which is on the opposite side of the spectrum from humanity.

Foucault argued that we should never consider homosexuality as natural, but instead treat it no differently than the rest of humanity.

Treating an unborn fetus as though it were less than human is exactly the same issue. The Pro-Choicers are segregating and oppressing another level of humanity by treating them as if they were more natural than human. It's just something that grows inside them, not a person, just like a woman was just someone who cooked for her man, and not a person.


The Great Ape Project -

It has been proven that the most intelligent ape has the same psychological capabilities as a mentally handicapped human being. The Great Ape Project was and is a movement that is trying to give apes the same rights as humans. I know this sounds fine but there is a flaw with this idea. The apes are not human. They may resemble our ancestors, but they are still not at the same level as us. They would continue to be treated as second class citizens and never be treated as equals. Another flaw with this theory is that the apes will never have the same potential as us. Not at this time at least. The most intelligent ape has the potential to be as intelligent as a human who has not reached their true potential. The fact of the matter is that humans have more potential than apes at this current time and so they can not be considered the same creature. However, if an ape were to be considered an equal, then it would also be considered more natural in it's relation to humanity. Again, this is like a fetus. An ape must be considered a seperate animal because of its lack of potential, which also protects it from being second class citizens (an ape as an ape can be protected easier and have more rights than an ape as a second class citizen). However, an unborn child can not be considered another species because it has the undeniable potential of becoming human. If it is not another animal then it must be the same animal as us, and as such it must be given rights as a human being.


Arguments-

It's a woman's body, and so it's her choice. Okay, granted. The fetus has no brain until such and such a time (approximately the beginning of the second trimester), so it's not considered legally alive untiul that date. Alright, I can understand that. So... what you're saying that it's alright to kill a baby as long as it's not considered alive yet. Alright, but it's still inside the woman's body after it has a brain. I'm sorry, but one of your arguments is flawed. It can't be both. The woman should either be allowed to abort up until the date of birth, or you should drop the argument that, 'It's her body, it's her choice."

It was brought up to me that we should have no say about another person's life unless it affects us directly. That is why we should not be allowed to force a woman to give birth, and so the option of abortion should always be open. I'm sorry, but I'm not forcing anybody to do anything. She got pregnant. Unless I forced her to have sex there was no forcing involved, and so that argument has no grounds unless it is used in the case of rape. When a perswon does something there is always a reaction. Unless you are handicapped (in which case it is considered rape) you should understand that there is a possibility of pregnancy when having sex. You are doing something which has had a biological reaction throughout the entirety of the history of the human race!


I am Pro-Life -

I am pro-life because of my life as a human. I have learned and gained experiences (both positive and extremely negative) that I refuse to regret and will never give up. If I died today (even if by my own hand because of depression), then I would still consider my life more meaningful than if someone had taken every opportunity from me before I'd had a chance to experience it. I am against abortion because I can not stand the idea of having been aborted.

I've never bothered to protest. I simply discuss to refine my views.

Rapists are terrible (as are child molesters and murderers), but that doesn't make their offspring any more terrible than it does their ancestors. The child is still half the woman's, and can she really hate herself that much to want to kill an extension of her being?

In many cases the father is not consulted before an abortion and 8 times out of 10 they suffer serious shock (a study reluctantly released by planned parenthood), which leaves a total of 8 million men in North America suffering from shock which immensely affects daily life. The same type of shock that affects a woman who was raped (possibly even to the same degree depending on the father's beliefs as to whether the fetus is human or not). However, this gives us no right to call the woman who got an abortion scum. In fact, she will probably go through shock as well. So, she has just immensely affected her own life and that of another.

I guess you could say that I draw my beliefs on minimilizing casualties. I'd prefer to have as few people affected negatively as possible. Right now a fetus is not considered alive until it has a brain. What if our beliefs change (much like our beliefs about the world being flat, the sun circling earth, and rocks dropping to the ground because it's in their nature) and we begin to believe (as I do) that life begins at conception because that is the moment that the fetus' potentiality begins? Honestly, I wouldn't like our culture to have that on our collective conscience... More fetus' have been aborted in the past 5 years than there were people who died in the holocaust, and those people were considered equally as inhuman.

I think that you'd care a little more if it affected you directly. I'm not going around telling people not to abort, but if they care to listen I'll tell them why I think it's a bad idea. Personally, I'd rather raise a child as a single parent then let a girl abort my son or daughter. I will go through whatever pains necessary to prevent that, but she would be the only one I'd actively try to stop.

Lobby parties in the government brings change. Direct confrontation with the person in charge without group protesting. Debates and arguments to spread awareness. Protesting isn't the only way, but it does help in certain situations.

I agree that people should make their own decisions, but abortion as birth control, etc seems wrong to me. People should have to deal with the consequences, that's right. However, if somebody can't deal with the consequences of sex are you sure they can deal with the consequences of abortion? A lot of people are unaware of the risks involved, and many regret it. I guess what I'm saying is that I agree that people should make their own choices, but is it fair to make them make a choice when they aren't educated in the matter first?

A lot of time the women don't actually have much of a choice in the matter because they are pressured into it by their spouse, friends, and family. I know my family put pressure on like that. There is also the otherside of the coin in which a lot of the time men don't get a choice. They had an equal involvement in the act but don't get to decide how they deal with the consequence.

Apparently you're right.

^_^ I like knowing what people's beliefs are here, you don't have to argue with me if you don't want to. I have fun either way. razz

It seems that I'm outnumbered here though. domokun

you are in no way outnumbered!

i am EXTREMELY Pro-Life.( although, sometimes i cant really back it up. Then again, i AM a christian. how can you back up most of christianity?)

One of the reasons im so pro-life is because i've got the feeling i wont be able to have children myself, although i love them so dearly. I could never kill anyone or anything, let alone something that cant defend itself. I see all the time people who would love to have a child,but cant. I also see women who have gotten an abortion, yet 10 or 20 years down the road live to regret it.

Can you imagine the amount of pain a women might go through 15 years after she's had an abortion, yet has another child? she'd look at that child every day and remember she didnt give the other child a chance.

I know pregnancy is a big deal, but jeeze, you can just have the baby and give her away,you know?

and for the "raped and not wanting to be reminded" arguement. Unless its one of those women who can totally block something out of they're mind, almost everything will remind her of how she was assaulted. dont punish a child for something they had no control over.

A bad example i heard some pro-life person present before- If your mother slept around after you were born, would YOU appreciate getting shot and killed?