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 Posted: Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:45 pm
Quote: Yet one must build the foundation before one builds the house, or the house will fall. We must establish the philosophy and the background before we can put forth the walls. great, bring out the axioms... you cannot bring yourself either to criticise my post, nor are you able to put forth your own, so you have to rely on philosophical maxims... great... Quote: subforum to discuss current issues and events, isnt that what hapens in the main forum anyway? Quote: we cannot take solely a philosophical stance but a practical one as well. really, and who apart from myself initiates any kind of marxist philosophical discussion? Quote: I believe that I already defended using the NCS for discussion, and many others have brought up points similar to my own opinions. No use in being completely redundant. what points were they? did i criticise them? if i did, why not attack my own posts regarding them?
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:01 am
Gracchvs Quote: Yet one must build the foundation before one builds the house, or the house will fall. We must establish the philosophy and the background before we can put forth the walls. great, bring out the axioms... you cannot bring yourself either to criticise my post, nor are you able to put forth your own, so you have to rely on philosophical maxims... great... Quote: subforum to discuss current issues and events, isnt that what hapens in the main forum anyway? Quote: we cannot take solely a philosophical stance but a practical one as well. really, and who apart from myself initiates any kind of marxist philosophical discussion? Quote: I believe that I already defended using the NCS for discussion, and many others have brought up points similar to my own opinions. No use in being completely redundant. what points were they? did i criticise them? if i did, why not attack my own posts regarding them? Gracchvs, I use philosophical maxims because they have become a part of my debating style, and because they help to prove my points. And as far as current events go, we discuss some, and we let others slide. Things I reallly would have thought that we would be on top of. And although our positions are fairly clear regarding our overall goals, the day to day execution of politics is oftentimes overlooked.
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Posted: Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:02 pm
see, she still just focusses on this. no attempt to deal with what im actually saying. Quote: I use philosophical maxims because they have become a part of my debating style this is the proof of one who is not comfortable with their ability to explain their position. Quote: and because they help to prove my points. um, no, they dont. you arent citing someone else who discovered, or interpreted something, you are relying on something which doesnt have any internal evidence, nor relates to the topic at hand. the organisation of the party and the philosophy of the party are the same thing, different political philosophies will bring different organisational structures and rules. what takai was doing was arguing from a counter-factual(a what-if senario) standpoint, when the fact is, that they couldnt have done things any different because their politico-organisational philosophies were not suited to anything other than what they did. Quote: we discuss some, and we let others slide. Things I reallly would have thought that we would be on top of and you dont bother to make threads regarding these? hmm? earlier in the thread, i made this post. Quote: you keep squirming out of it, either out of political cowardice: you cannot defend your ideas, or because you dont have any, and as such, post only regarding the side comments, that is, you question the proof, not that actual formulation, in politics, one has to do both. now i will apologise for what i have italicised, because if i recall correctly, you didnt put forward any ideas, so it is not so much a matter of defending them. what matters is what i have bolded, that is, one has to both use history and philosophy among other things, to prove oneself, but only to prove oneself, in this thread, we are meant to be discussing how to organise, or rather, more acurately, but bound up with it, what to do with the guild. if you wish to defend a position of your own, or someone else, please do so, but if you want to argue history,(or what part philosophy should play in politics) make a thread for it. Quote: we discuss some, and we let others slide. Things I reallly would have thought that we would be on top of and you dont bother to make threads regarding these? hmm?
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:23 pm
REDGallenger I'm really opening this thread up for a sobering subject- that is; what should the NCS be put to use for? I want to open a dialogue with everybody who habits this place, I will, after a few postings responds to this in kind and post my own ideas. Mainly I'll set up some guidlines first: What do you think the NCS can accomplish on Gaia? What do you think the NCS could accomplish in real life? What should the NCS' policies be about other leftist forums and RL political parties? Do you think the NCS could make use of a web forum specifically for RL activism- so as to create an atmosphere that isn't quite as childish as Gaia? a) Nothing except giving kids an excuse to feel "cool" and "rebellious" on the internet. b) Probably nothing. If there was a grassroots demand for communism, it would have been easily reflected in the CPUSA ballots. There isn't. The CPUSA is at a puppethead state in national and global politics. The Green party has more votes. c) Apathy. The "Freedom of speech" in your "constitution" already says so. If you don't want to be flamed for communism, don't flame others for their beliefs. Kant rules!! d) Something I supported a long time ago. Sure!! Do it! It's going to reimburse you for your wasted time more than this place is!
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:29 pm
Gracchvs see, she still just focusses on this. no attempt to deal with what im actually saying. Quote: I use philosophical maxims because they have become a part of my debating style this is the proof of one who is not comfortable with their ability to explain their position. Quote: and because they help to prove my points. um, no, they dont. you arent citing someone else who discovered, or interpreted something, you are relying on something which doesnt have any internal evidence, nor relates to the topic at hand. the organisation of the party and the philosophy of the party are the same thing, different political philosophies will bring different organisational structures and rules. what takai was doing was arguing from a counter-factual(a what-if senario) standpoint, when the fact is, that they couldnt have done things any different because their politico-organisational philosophies were not suited to anything other than what they did. Quote: we discuss some, and we let others slide. Things I reallly would have thought that we would be on top of and you dont bother to make threads regarding these? hmm? earlier in the thread, i made this post. Quote: you keep squirming out of it, either out of political cowardice: you cannot defend your ideas, or because you dont have any, and as such, post only regarding the side comments, that is, you question the proof, not that actual formulation, in politics, one has to do both. now i will apologise for what i have italicised, because if i recall correctly, you didnt put forward any ideas, so it is not so much a matter of defending them. what matters is what i have bolded, that is, one has to both use history and philosophy among other things, to prove oneself, but only to prove oneself, in this thread, we are meant to be discussing how to organise, or rather, more acurately, but bound up with it, what to do with the guild. if you wish to defend a position of your own, or someone else, please do so, but if you want to argue history,(or what part philosophy should play in politics) make a thread for it. Quote: we discuss some, and we let others slide. Things I reallly would have thought that we would be on top of and you dont bother to make threads regarding these? hmm? Gracchvs - wow. A) Just because we're using a philosopher to back up our points doesn't mean we're incompetant to make the argument. By this logic, you're imcompetant to formulate thoughts and express them because you're using someones language to do so. "Make your own language, b***h!" - Dave Chappelle ; "Zim bin loo, quantum floo!" - George Carlin. Furthermore, turn this - you're biting in to your own harms. You're using the philosophy of Marxism and Communism to propogate and found your arguments. Stop bitching if you do the same. B) We ought (yes, morally obligated) to discuss the philosophical with philosophy. In the matter of communism, it really doesn't matter - both statistically, sociologically and philosophically communism isn't justified nor possible. Stop being a flamer and giver her the floor. Learn to debate effectively if you don't want to be "counter-flamed". Stop being stubborn and cranky just because you're frustrated communism isn't working out for you.
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 9:47 pm
Sovi3t REDGallenger I'm really opening this thread up for a sobering subject- that is; what should the NCS be put to use for? I want to open a dialogue with everybody who habits this place, I will, after a few postings responds to this in kind and post my own ideas. Mainly I'll set up some guidlines first: What do you think the NCS can accomplish on Gaia? What do you think the NCS could accomplish in real life? What should the NCS' policies be about other leftist forums and RL political parties? Do you think the NCS could make use of a web forum specifically for RL activism- so as to create an atmosphere that isn't quite as childish as Gaia? a) Nothing except giving kids an excuse to feel "cool" and "rebellious" on the internet. b) Probably nothing. If there was a grassroots demand for communism, it would have been easily reflected in the CPUSA ballots. There isn't. The CPUSA is at a puppethead state in national and global politics. The Green party has more votes. c) Apathy. The "Freedom of speech" in your "constitution" already says so. If you don't want to be flamed for communism, don't flame others for their beliefs. Kant rules!! d) Something I supported a long time ago. Sure!! Do it! It's going to reimburse you for your wasted time more than this place is! You do realize how tempting it is for me to produce a complete rebuttal of the categorical imperative and post it here, don't you? Ah well, as the Voltaire quote (which may be a mis-attribution, but still...), "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it."
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Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 10:30 pm
Education. That's the most important thing for the time being.
I can't speak for other nations, but at least in America, it seems that very few people have taken the time to learn what communism is. The people I do know educated on the subject, are in fact communists or socialists themselves. So if we can educate people, we can get them to join us. Sure, not everyone, but more than we lose.
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Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 10:51 am
chicken_soup Education. That's the most important thing for the time being. I can't speak for other nations, but at least in America, it seems that very few people have taken the time to learn what communism is. The people I do know educated on the subject, are in fact communists or socialists themselves. So if we can educate people, we can get them to join us. Sure, not everyone, but more than we lose. Yes, that is true. But the problem runs deeper in that... who would LET us teach it, we must edjucate the masses on our own.
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Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 8:23 pm
Dark_Lord_Takai Yes, that is true. But the problem runs deeper in that... who would LET us teach it, we must edjucate the masses on our own. Yes, we would have to do it ourselves, but why shouldn't we? It's our idea, our agenda, our responsibility. If each of us talked to a few people a week, and they spread it along to a few more people, them to more etc . . . We could also write to newspapers, or write to politicians. We have over 400 hundred members of this guild, so if we organized each of us to send a letter to a certain person or organization, it would hit them hard to have 400 hundred letters from different people all supporting the same agenda. It may even influence them.
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Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:06 pm
I personally think that we should use the guild as an educational resource to all thinks socialist and communist. I agree that we must take it unto ourselves that we educate the masses. If we each work towards one goal of educating the masses about socialism and communism we can work towards creating a better environment. I mean that literally and figurative.
If we can create a singuler motion of peacful revolution by means of writing those who we elect(when we actually elect them) and those who hold power(threaten them with not voting for them when we are able to vote or actually vote people in) we can force a change without force.
I think that insted of a single large bolt ir a lot of arrows we should use a lesser number of medium sized bolts. Aim for targets which will help us affect change and we can use this guild to that end.
I partially agree with both of the two large debators where, we need to cover a large area. However we also need to hit it deeply.
In my humble but honest opinion.
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Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:08 pm
Quote: A) Just because we're using a philosopher to back up our points doesn't mean we're incompetant to make the argument. no, it doesnt, but it means that we feel that they can do it better than us. i do it as well. you point this out. i dont deny it. Quote: Stop being a flamer and giver her the floor. if this is how it comes across, that i am flaming, that is unfortunate. all i am asking is that the thread be kept on topic, and that any diversions have relevance, practical relevance, seeing as this is a thread about how to do something in a practical sence. Quote: Learn to debate effectively if you don't want to be "counter-flamed". where was 1. my flame, and 2. the counter-flame? i dont see either... Quote: Stop being stubborn and cranky just because you're frustrated communism isn't working out for you . i like to keep the topic relevant. simple. one can always make a new thread to discuss this or that point out of the context of this discussion. Quote: You do realize how tempting it is for me to produce a complete rebuttal of the categorical imperative and post it here, don't you? Ah well, as the Voltaire quote (which may be a mis-attribution, but still...), "I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to death your right to say it." does that apply to nazis?
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Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:17 pm
A sub-forum for current events of note to our cause sounds good, but outside of that I'd like a Socialism/Communism factbook of sorts on a sticky, or something to that extent. I don't know about some of you, but my memory has a mind of its own, and it happens to be a very choosy, selective mind. I could use a good, well-organized source upon which to draw up support for my arguments, especially since Gaia has an anti-communist thread active (almost) at all times. It would also be useful as individual knowledge from each of us could be entered in and as a result we, and our collective movement, would benefit for the shared wealth. I know I'd at least like to hear some of the stuff from the veteran communist debaters here.
If communism is to work, its leaders must hold true to its tenets. Individual success is important in getting our message heard, but a united front and the solidarity afforded by such a front will strengthen all of us, and thus strengthen communism.
By the way, this is a little off topic, but I'm one of the lucky ones here, it seems. Here in Vancouver I can say that I'm a communist and get either A. no reaction at all, or B. genuine acceptance of my position. It's funny, because when I wore my Mao hat on a recent trip to Houston, random people on the street actually told me to take it off.
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Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:48 pm
AHA! ok, it seems we will have to go fishing for the help comrade jaelia(?) thread. this is such a "Socialism/Communism factbook of sorts". besides, i did a great exposition of dialectics there xd Quote: I could use a good, well-organized source upon which to draw up support for my arguments, ok, it seems as though that thread amy not be so much help. though yes, it would be great to compile such a sticky. Quote: If communism is to work, its leaders must hold true to its tenets. Individual success is important in getting our message heard, but a united front and the solidarity afforded by such a front will strengthen all of us, and thus strengthen communism. so, are you all for unity of the left, or for a more democratic-centralist organisation which i detailed above?
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