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Testament of Death

PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:22 pm


I'm new to the guild.
If I'm out of my place for making this topic, I am sorry. And would have no problem with you deleting it.

Well, I was wondering what the Buddhist religion's view on homosexuality is.
Could somebody tell me?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:24 pm


I found this article to be of interest.

Quote:
Minutes of Meeting between His Holiness the Dalai Lama and Gay and Lesbian Leaders
San Francisco, June 11, 1997

The meeting opened with short remarks by Eva Herzer, President of the International Committee of Lawyers for Tibet, who acted as meeting coordinator on behalf of the Office of Tibet. Eva thanked His Holiness for meeting with the group regarding two key concerns. First, the concerns of gay and lesbian Buddhist practitioners who seek to reconcile their sense of self and identity with Buddhist teachings which characterize homosexual activities as misconduct. Second, the group was concerned about His Holiness's views on the issue of human rights for gay and lesbian people, particularly since his views as a Nobel Laureate and preeminent leader for world peace carry great weight in the court of public opinion. She expressed the concern that ambiguity on his part could be used to support discrimination against gays and lesbians, which in turn would cause suffering. She provided His Holiness with a short overview of the status of gay rights and of the kinds of discrimination and psychological and physical violence which continue to date.

His Holiness opened his remarks by thanking the group for the trust it expressed in sharing its concerns with him. "Discrimination is very sad", he said. He offered to discuss his views from two separate perspectives, first from the perspective of society and human rights and secondly from the perspective of a Buddhist practitioner.

From a societal and social perspective, His Holiness said, "it is wrong for society to reject people on the basis of their sexual orientation". He recognized that such rejection causes human suffering. He stated that "your movement to gain full human rights is reasonable and logical". There is "no harm in mutually agreeable sexual acts" and "it is wrong for anyone to look down on gay people", he added. He further stated that he is opposed to discrimination based on sexual orientation and that Buddhist principle support the struggle of all people for equal treatment and full human rights.

From a Buddhist practitioner's perspective, sexual misconduct is analyzed on four levels, His Holiness explained, while reading from the relevant scriptures:

1. The partner involved (no sex with a partner who took vows, who is sick, who is one's mother or who is underage).

2. The organ involved (any organ other than the v****a, such as the mouth, a**s, hands, thighs and calves should not be used).

3. The timing (not during menstrual period, while nursing or late in pregnancy) and

4. The place involved (not on rough ground or at temples).

He went on to explain that there is a distinction between prohibitions which are naturally unethical, such as killing, and prohibitions which are not naturally unethical, such as the prohibition for a monk to eat solid food in the evening. Sexual misconduct prohibitions are "not naturally unethical", he said.

His Holiness then explained the purpose behind these precepts. The aim of Buddhist practice is Nirvana which is achieved through the elimination of afflicting emotions and the reduction of attachment and desire. Sex, he said, is one of the strongest desires and should therefore be decreased by all Buddhist practitioners. It is improper all together for those who have taken vows of celibacy.

His Holiness pointed out that Buddhist precepts take into account the time, culture and society in which they originate. For example, monks were to wear saffron because at the time it was conventional in India for poor people to wear saffron. Similarly, having sex with a professional prostitute at the time the precepts were formulated was acceptable and is therefore not sexual misconduct unless a third party pays for it. There is therefore "a possibility of understanding these precepts in the context of time, culture and society". "If homosexuality is part of accepted norms, it is possible that it would be acceptable" [in Buddhism]. "However, no single person or teacher can redefine precepts. I do not have the authority to redefine these precepts since no one can make a unilateral decision or issue a decree", he said. "Such a redefinition can only come out of sangha discussions within the various Buddhist traditions. It is not unprecedented in the history of Buddhism to redefine issues, but it has to be done on the collective level", His Holiness said. He also added that it would be helpful to do more research on the genesis of these sexual precepts.

In response to a question by Steven Peskind, co-founder of the Buddhist Aids Project, His Holiness stated that the proscribed sexual activities, for a Buddhist practitioner, constitute misconduct but that a person committing such misconduct can still be a Buddhist. Sexual misconduct is only one of 10 negative activities and a Buddhist practitioner should strive to increasingly avoid these negative activities. He also added that it is better for a Buddhist practitioner to engage in proscribed sexual activities, if suppression of such desires would have more negative consequences, such as aggression or violence due to frustration. Thus, he said "it is always important to look to the context of a proscribed activity".

Lourdes Arguelles, member of the board of directors of the Buddhist Peace Fellowship, stated that in some cultures, such as the Navajo culture, same sex relationships are highly regarded and that it might be beneficial to hold a broad-based conference on issues of human sexuality. His Holiness responded by suggesting that it is important to broaden this dialogue and that it would be more appropriate at this time for the gay and lesbian community to raise the sexual precept issue within various Buddhist traditions and within the context of upcoming Buddhist conferences. He stated that there are several serious issues in the progress of discussion, such as the issue of Bikshuni vows (ordination of women) and the treatment of nuns in general and that issues of sexual proscriptions should be raised within the context of conferences already planned to discuss those questions. His Holiness further stated that he is willing to continue the discussion of sexual proscriptions within these contexts. He suggested that out of such further discussions within the various Buddhist traditions a consensus might emerge to hold a separate conference on human sexuality.

Jose Ignatio Cabezon, professor of theology at the Iliff School of religion, stated that it seemed unfair that heterosexual (vaginal) sex is condoned while homosexual sex is not. If the purpose of the rules is to decrease all sexual activity a sexual ethic should be developed to that effect. Jose cited Buddhist scriptures which state that a man may have sex with his wife no more than five times per night. If the purpose of the proscriptions is to reduce sexual activity, he asked, how does it make sense to allow a man to have sex with his wife up to five times a night while saying that it is sexual misconduct for a man to have sex with another man even once in his life time. His Holiness roared with laughter and responded "you have a point there!" He reiterated that the goal for Buddhist practitioners should be to reduce desire, including sexual desire. He stated that for monks any sexual emission is improper. He suggested that one way of looking at these sexual proscriptions, is to recognize that the purpose of sexuality, as seen in India at the time, was reproduction, which would explain why all sexual activity which can not result in reproduction is proscribed.

His Holiness closed the meeting by reiterating his support for full human rights for all people and by stating that Buddhist principles support the logical and reasonable claims of gay and lesbian people for equal human rights.


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Tenzin Chodron
Crew


Tenzin Chodron
Crew

PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:25 pm


Also this one.

Quote:
Dalai Lama urges 'respect, compassion, and full human rights for all,' including gays
by Dennis Conkin
Bay Area Reporter, June 19th, 1997


The Dalai Lama, world-revered leader of millions of Buddhists and leader of the Tibetan people, spoke out strongly against discrimination and violence against lesbians and gays during an extraordinary Wednesday, June 11 meeting in San Francisco with lesbian and gay Buddhists, clergy, and human rights activists.

The religious leader said at the press conference that he had previously been asked his views on gay marriage, and said that such social sanction of gay relationships "has to be judged in the context of the society itself and the laws and social norms."

During the 45-minute meeting, the Nobel peace laureate and Buddhist religious leader voiced his support for the full recognition of human rights for all people, regardless of sexual orientation.

Buddhist sexual proscriptions ban homosexual sexual activity and heterosexual sex through orifices other than the v****a, including masturbation or other sexual activity with the hand. Buddhist proscriptions also forbid sex at certain times - such as during full and half moon days, the daytime, and during a wife's menstrual period or pregnancy - or near shrines or temples. Adultery is considered sexual misconduct, but the hiring of a female prostitute for penile-vaginal sex is not, unless one pays a third party to procure the person.

From a "Buddhist point of view," lesbian and gay sex "is generally considered sexual misconduct," the Dalai Lama told reporters at a press conference a day earlier.

However, such proscriptions are for members of the Buddhist faith - and from "society's viewpoint," homosexual sexual relations can be "of mutual benefit, enjoyable, and harmless," according to the Dalai Lama.

"His Holiness was greatly concerned by reports made available to him regarding violence and discrimination against gay and lesbian people. His Holiness opposes violence and discrimination based on sexual orientation. He urges respect, tolerance, compassion, and the full recognition of human rights for all," said Office of Tibet spokesman Dawa Tsering in a statement issued within an hour of the meeting.

Photographs of the historic event were taken, but were available only on the condition that participants' quotes be reviewed prior to publication.

That condition violates journalistic canons regarding the freedom of the press. The Bay Area Reporter declined any conditions for the release of the photographs and has lodged a protest with the National Gay and Lesbian Journalism Association over their embargo.

Concern about violence
The extraordinary meeting was held at the Buddhist leader's suite at the Fairmont Hotel, on the last day of "Peacemaking: The Power of Non-Violence," a three-day conference held at Bill Graham Civic Auditorium.

Sponsored by The California Institute of Asian Studies and Tibet House, the conference featured plenary sessions, workshops, and discussions with a wide array of international, national, and local human rights and violence prevention and intervention leaders, including Pulitzer Prize-winning author Alice Walker, actor Edward James Olmos, East Timor human rights leader and Nobel laureate Jose Ramos-Horta, and others, including a representative of Nobel peace laureate and Guatemalan peace activist Rigoberta Menchu.

The meeting with lesbians and gays followed a January 1996 report by the Bay Area Reporter that detailed an open letter by Buddhist AIDS Project coordinator Steve Peskind, asking the world-revered spiritual leader of millions of Buddhists to publicly clarify his published contradictory statements on homosexuality.

Peskind said that he was motivated by concern about the violence and harm caused to lesbian and gays around the world through pronouncements against homosexual sexual activity by Buddhist religious leaders such as the Dalai Lama.

Many gay and lesbian Buddhists have reported virulenty anti-gay sentiments and teachings from religious teachers in Tibetan and other Buddhist practice lines.

A former Tibetan Buddhist monk, Peskind is a well-known figure in Buddhist and AIDS circles and is a co-founder of the San Francisco-based Shanti Project and Coming Home Hospice.

When asked last January by the Bay Area Reporter if the Dalai Lama might meet with Peskind or other lesbian and gay Buddhists leaders during the June conference, a California Institute For Integral Studies special events organizer initially indicated that such a tete-a-tete would be unlikely.

Gay and lesbian political and anti-violence leaders including Supervisor Tom Ammiano and Lester Olmstead-Rose quickly joined with Peskind, asking for the clarification of the religious leader's statements proclaiming homosexual sex as sexual misconduct.

Warm and relaxed
The possibility of organized gay and lesbian protest, including a high-profile public information ad campaign conducted in the national media such as the New York Times - and conference site picketing - was defused after the flap was discussed during a cabinet session of the Tibetan government-in-exile in Dharamsala, India, and a meeting with Peskind and others was scheduled by the Office of Tibet.

Peskind and Buddhist AIDS Project co-leader Jim Purfield were also hastily invited by Tibet House conference organizers to present a workshop on homophobia and violence with representatives of Community United Against Violence. The workshop drew an estimated 50 participants, many of them lesbian and gay. Several AIDS prevention and social service professionals who work with lesbian and gay youth also attended that workshop.

The private meeting between representatives of the lesbian and gay community and the Dalai Lama was described as "warm and relaxed."

The Dalai Lama also expressed interest in the insights of modern scientific research on homosexuality and its value in developing new understanding of Buddhist texts that nix homosexual activity, participants said.

Reiterating in the private meeting that he did not have the authority to unilaterally reinterpret Buddhist scriptures, the Dalai Lama also urged those present to build a consensus among other Buddhist traditions and communities to collectively change the understanding of the Buddhist scriptural references on sexuality for contemporary society, according to a joint statement issued by participants.

During the meeting, the Dalai Lama also candidly acknowledged that he did not know the foundations of scriptural proscriptions against sexual activity or where they originated, Peskind said.

Participants also said the Dalai Lama expressed the "willingness to consider the possibility that some of the teachings may be specific to a particular cultural and historic context."

Dogmatic response
According to longtime Buddhist observer and writer Scott Hunt, whose 1993 interview with the leader was published in the January/February 1994 Out magazine, the response of the Dalai Lama to the controversy over the teachings is significant.

Hunt said the religious leader could have put forth the underlying "moral underpinnings" of the strictures - and clearly stated the basis and positive effects of such teachings.

Instead, Hunt said, by propounding the teachings without such discussion, the Dalai Lama seems to be "engaging in dogmatic repetition" and is apparently unable to substantiate their beneficial character, and because of his response, the validity of the teachings have been cast "into serious doubt." Vigorous debate about such issues and exception to the views of religious leaders such as the Dalai Lama are neither heresy or disrespectful in Buddhist traditions.

"In fact, it's the practitioner's duty to examine dogmatic views and to determine their validity," Hunt said. During the private session, the religious teacher told the activists they would have a harder time changing Buddhist scripture and tradition than advocating for their human rights based on Buddhist principles, according to Peskind.

Organized for the Office of Tibet by attorney Eva Herzer, president of the International Committee of Lawyers For Tibet, the historic meeting included Herzer, Peskind, Buddhist Peace Fellowship activist and Claremont Graduate School Professor of Education Lourdes Arguelles, and Jose Ignacio Cabezon, a gay Buddhist scholar and professor at Iliff School of Theology in Denver, Colorado.

Other participants included the Ven. K.T. Shedrup Gyatso, a fully ordained and openly gay Buddhist monk and teacher who is the spiritual director of the San Jose Tibetan Temple; International Gay And Lesbian Human Rights Commission co-chair Tinku Ali Ishtiaq; and former Congregation Sha'ar Zahav Rabbi Yoel Khan.

"There is still room for movement," Ishtiaq told the Bay Area Reporter. But the human rights activist said the Dalai Lama's support for lesbian and gay rights is "very significant."

Ishtiaq said that the Nobel laureate commands tremendous respect around the world and hoped the leader's historic statement would have "considerable impact on non-Buddhist religious traditions."

A conference on Buddhism, sex, gender, and diversity issues is being planned, following the historic meeting with the world religious leader.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:28 pm


Last one, I promise.

Quote:
On Homosexuality and Sex in General
From: World Tibet News - August 27, 1997 - Compiled by Thubten (Sam) Samdup
[Following articles appeared in MSNBC on August 26, 1997 covering the recent trip made by Dan Haig and the company to Dharamsala to set up the Gangkyi (LAN) local area network. TS]


Question: What is the stance of Tibetan Buddhism on homosexuality, and how does that fit in with Tibetan Buddhism?
Dalai Lama: Sexuality?
Interpreter: What was the question again?

Question: With homosexuality-- with men and men and women and women having sex together. Is that, is that, how is that treated by Tibetan Buddhism?
Dalai Lama: I think we have to make different categories. The first way is celibacy. In that [category], any form of sex is prohibited. That could be using one's own hand-- any way to...
Interpreter: ... ejaculate...
Dalai Lama: ... or to increase sexual desire. So that is...
Interpreter: ... prohibited, not allowed.
Dalai Lama: Then, if the practitioner is sexual, it is not prohibited. But sexual includes homosexual also, and...
Interpreter: ... oral sex...
Dalai Lama: ... and the other hole. These, you see, even with one's own wife, of both sex is considered sexual misconduct. Then another category, no believer, no believer. I think, basically, the purpose of sex is reproduction. So in order to fulfill that purpose, man to man, women to women cannot fulfill-- so a little bit...
Interpreter: ... could be considered unnatural.
Dalai Lama: But at the same time, there are people, among men, among women, see. Again, I think we discussed before, the sexual desire is generally related to the body, the physical body. So then, under those circumstances if you stop, or try to stop, it may create more violent consequences. Then at least sexual misconduct...

Question: So even as a Tibetan Buddhist lay person, not a monk, it's better to avoid these things?
Dalai Lama: Better. [speaks to interpreter]
Interpreter: He says that amongst the Tibetans perhaps it is unheard of that sex.
Dalai Lama: But I don't know. [laughs] I've heard... stories... practices. But one thing I feel that as a human, with this body...
Interpreter: The desire for sexual intercourse...
Dalai Lama: ... the more the nature sort of comes, I think that it should be OK, it should be OK. But if we deliberately...
Interpreter: ... deliberately try to enhance these sexual desires...
Dalai Lama: ... then I don't know. I think sometimes, some part of Western culture, or modern culture, deliberately promotes that sort of sex life, or sex feeling. Then it goes too much, then it goes extreme. So often people say "love and violence" or "love and hatred"...
Interpreter: ... often you hear about love and hatred accompanying one another.
Dalai Lama: So I think a more gentle or a more natural sort of love is less extreme.

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Tenzin Chodron
Crew


Testament of Death

PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 8:10 pm


Alright... I think I've got it.

Thanks heart
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 7:52 am


Jizo Bosatsu! [inflected like a "Jesus Christ" exclamation]

Stop being so ... so good a Buddhist!

xp heart

Akanishi Makoto
Vice Captain


Mizu Otaku Monkey

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 12:11 pm


Akanishi Makoto
Jizo Bosatsu! [inflected like a "Jesus Christ" exclamation]

Stop being so ... so good a Buddhist!

xp heart

Hoyeah.

Anyway.

I don't know exactly what the Buddhist rules are about homosexuality, but in my own opinion, nature, God, whatever higher being you want to believe in, makes people however they are for a purpose, and this purpose cannot be bad. Even murderers have a purpose for redeeming someone else's karma to the good side, thus sacrificing themselves for the better good, increasing their own good karma in the process.

Of course, you cannot compare homosexuals to murderers, they have not and cannot harm anyone with just their sexual orientation, it's just not possible.

Another thought or theory is that people are reincarnated to be with someone they loved before, and sometimes, for their own reasons, the woman comes back as a male, thus making both still in love, though it defies what most conservatives would call "nature".
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:45 pm


Attachment is attachment, regardless of the object. Homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, pansexual - whatever.

Akanishi Makoto
Jizo Bosatsu! [inflected like a "Jesus Christ" exclamation]

Stop being so ... so good a Buddhist!
xp heart

Oh noez! You've taken mah name in vain!
*taps you on the head with a paper fan*

xd

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Tenzin Chodron
Crew


Akanishi Makoto
Vice Captain

PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 5:42 pm


[ Jizo Bosatsu ]
Attachment is attachment, regardless of the object. Homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, pansexual - whatever.
Even non-sexual. Addicts are very tightly woven into the fabric of existence and suffering.

Look at the fight I had quitting smoking.
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 6:11 pm


Akanishi Makoto
Jizo Bosatsu
Attachment is attachment, regardless of the object. Homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual, pansexual - whatever.
Even non-sexual. Addicts are very tightly woven into the fabric of existence and suffering.

Look at the fight I had quitting smoking.

That is very true. It's also really interesting how, in keeping mindful of attachment, it's easy to develop aversions, or even ignorance. Samsara sure is sticky!
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Tenzin Chodron
Crew


Testament of Death

PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2006 7:48 pm


Mizu Otaku Monkey
Akanishi Makoto
Jizo Bosatsu! [inflected like a "Jesus Christ" exclamation]

Stop being so ... so good a Buddhist!

xp heart

Hoyeah.

Anyway.

I don't know exactly what the Buddhist rules are about homosexuality, but in my own opinion, nature, God, whatever higher being you want to believe in, makes people however they are for a purpose, and this purpose cannot be bad. Even murderers have a purpose for redeeming someone else's karma to the good side, thus sacrificing themselves for the better good, increasing their own good karma in the process.

Of course, you cannot compare homosexuals to murderers, they have not and cannot harm anyone with just their sexual orientation, it's just not possible.

Another thought or theory is that people are reincarnated to be with someone they loved before, and sometimes, for their own reasons, the woman comes back as a male, thus making both still in love, though it defies what most conservatives would call "nature".

Hm, never thought of it that way...

Well thanks, I was just wondering if any religion really accepted homosexuals.
Other than Buddhism, all of the ones I know of conseder it a sin.
PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 6:56 am


Life`s End
Other than Buddhism, all of the ones I know of conseder it a sin.
Christianity technically shouldn't. There's a lovely thesis on this very subject by a religious scholar that circulates in the Morality and Religion subforum that's worth a read. 3nodding

Cranium Squirrel
Captain

Friendly Trickster


Testament of Death

PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2006 5:27 pm


Byaggha
Life`s End
Other than Buddhism, all of the ones I know of conseder it a sin.
Christianity technically shouldn't. There's a lovely thesis on this very subject by a religious scholar that circulates in the Morality and Religion subforum that's worth a read. 3nodding

Yes, but I mean in real life.

And even if the Church said it was ok, it wouldn't matter to a lot of people. They are just too set in their ways.
It would take a long time for it to be accepted into main stream life.
I mean, just look at the black's struggle for freedom. They had to run from the South to be free. And then they where still looked down upon for years afterwords.
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 5:59 am


The pagans tend to be pretty gay happy.

Eye_seE


Eye_seE

PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2006 6:08 am


On my personal feelings about the buddist view of homosexualty and how I interpert it.

Marriage is a civil issue so no objections to it.
Monks and nuns should not be having sex, so frankly it dosent matter if their gay.

Lay people on the other hand are a bit blurry.
Personaly I think its ok. It keeps within the general world view, but its important that we dont define ourselves by sexuality as so many gay people do. An attachment is still an attachment, it be stright or gay.
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Loving Kindness: A Buddhism Guild

 
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