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 Posted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 7:55 pm
chaoticpuppet windswept_fury It could be that chickenlips felt that he must, under any circumstances, post this, and that nothing would stop him.
Regular determinism. Ta da!
[ Lame, yes. Do I care? Not really.] I think that's more free will-ish. Regular determinism would be more like: chickenlips posted this as a reaction to the environment that had surrounded him. Whether he felt anything is of no consequence. Okay, fine.
Make it all technical.
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 12:13 pm
Predetermination does not undermine the idea of free will. God's knowing which decision you will make does not take away your ability to make your own choice. Knowlege of what will happen beforehand doesn't mean you made it happen.
Besides, even if we always make the choice to do whatever is more important to us, we still have the free will to make said decision, do we not? It just means we used "free will" to make the decision most beneficial to us.
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Posted: Sat Jun 17, 2006 8:41 pm
Hybrid Theories Predetermination does not undermine the idea of free will. God's knowing which decision you will make does not take away your ability to make your own choice. Knowlege of what will happen beforehand doesn't mean you made it happen. When said being is the creator as well, then there is no free will when he has the knoweldge of our actions before we commit them. It seems like what you are saying is that God is a person watching a television show and knows what will happen. This is partially the case; it is not just that God is watching the show, but he is the creator of the show he is watching. He created the direction it will go in because he both created the show as well as has the knowledge of what will happen in said show. The only way we can have free will with a being like God is through God not being omniscient or by having God not be our creator. Quote: Besides, even if we always make the choice to do whatever is more important to us, we still have the free will to make said decision, do we not? It just means we used "free will" to make the decision most beneficial to us. Not necessarily so. I may act in my best interests because I am fated to do so or because that is how I react to the situations that arise in my environment.
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Posted: Sun Jun 18, 2006 11:10 am
Well, I'm not so surer about the TV show analogy. I think of it this way: there is a river, being the future, and God has a paper boat, being you. When he sets that paper boat in the water at your birth and you begin to move along, God sees ahead. He sees all the currents and rocks and obstructions that His boat will bump. Being but a paper boat, we are knocked off course and go all kinds of ways. God sees the bumps and knows which way they will bump you. See, He didn't make you go the way you did, but He knew which way you'd go.
But then, there's another way to think about it. We all agree that God created timed He is not bound by His creations. So what if God has already seen all of your choices and that's how He knows your decisions in advance?
My biggest hang-up is that I cannot believe in fate. I believe that people go to hell because God gave them free will. God's not just a mean kid with a magnifying glass burning the ants on the concrete. He gives people the choice to love Him because He didn't want mindless robots to wander the earth. God wouldn't say, "I don't care that you don't have free will, I'm going to pitch you into hell." Without free will, God would be unjust in sending anybody to hell, but God is, by definition, always just and fair.
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Posted: Mon Jun 19, 2006 7:40 pm
Hybrid Theories Well, I'm not so surer about the TV show analogy. I think of it this way: there is a river, being the future, and God has a paper boat, being you. When he sets that paper boat in the water at your birth and you begin to move along, God sees ahead. He sees all the currents and rocks and obstructions that His boat will bump. Being but a paper boat, we are knocked off course and go all kinds of ways. God sees the bumps and knows which way they will bump you. See, He didn't make you go the way you did, but He knew which way you'd go. I've never actually thought of it that way. Quote: But then, there's another way to think about it. We all agree that God created timed He is not bound by His creations. So what if God has already seen all of your choices and that's how He knows your decisions in advance? God not being bound by time has little to do with this argument. Really, I think what it will come down to is that God is outside of logic. Quote: My biggest hang-up is that I cannot believe in fate. I believe that people go to hell because God gave them free will. God's not just a mean kid with a magnifying glass burning the ants on the concrete. He gives people the choice to love Him because He didn't want mindless robots to wander the earth. God wouldn't say, "I don't care that you don't have free will, I'm going to pitch you into hell." Without free will, God would be unjust in sending anybody to hell, but God is, by definition, always just and fair. - Logically, if God is merciful, fate cannot be true. I agree with you there. Keep in mind that determinism is not necessarily fate. Determinism is simply you reacting to the environment with little control over your actions... Although the same complications come up. Also keep in mind that the physical world is determined, hence why we can have sciences such as physic, chemistry, and biology. Also, the idea of a soul brings up more philosophical problems than I really want to deal with right now. Finally, remember that some things in our lives are determined, that is, there are things in our lives we have absolutely no control over, such as our birth and death.
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