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This is something I have probably mentioned in the past, so I felt like maybe I should make a proper thread of it and see what the general opinion was.

I feel like the overall length of Nagas is incredibly short. According to their particular post the longest a Naga can be is 9 feet, though they can be as short as 6 feet. And that's not just the tail, that's including their torso. Taking into account the weight of the torso with tail strength and potential bone and muscle strain, that means the tallest of Naga can only hold themselves at about 2' 9" tall, comfortably, if they want to be upright while moving. They could always lift themselves a bit higher, but movement would be more limited and in general they're going to be tinier than even the Cherubs if they want to hold themselves up without injuring or putting too much strain on their tails. A short Naga would only be around 1' 10". When you think about that kind of height paired with body proportions Naga would be quite child-like, even infantile in their size compared to most races.

(I'm getting all these height estimates from a Google Doc spreadsheet made by Ish. Here's a [link] to it if you are interested.)

Since Naga are mythical there's not any actual standard measurements out there, so instead I went and looked at a few real snakes for comparison. Here's just a few examples.

• The green anaconda. Minimum adult length is 10ft, average is 12ft. Some have reliably gotten to 17ft, sometimes 18ft. While not firmly verified, they may even grow to 29ft.
  
• The reticulated python. Minimum adult length is 10ft. Several specimens have been marked at 20ft, 22ft, 24ft, 25ft, and 26ft. While not firmly verified, they may even grow to 33ft.
  
• The burmese python. Minimum adult length is 7.7ft, and they can reliably grow to about 18.8ft.
  
• The king cobra. Averages around 9.8ft to 13.1ft. At maximum length they can be 18.5ft to 18.8ft
  
• The eastern diamondback rattlesnake. Grows anywhere from 3.5ft to 6ft, with an average length of 5.6ft. There have been a few found at 7ft, which seems to be the maximum length, though it is speculated 8ft is their absolute maximum.

On the scale of ridiculously long there's also the extinct species like gigantophis (30ft to 35ft) and titanoboa (40ft), but I only mention them because I'm a nerd who likes dinosaurs XD But anyway, that only puts our Nagas only slightly longer than the average eastern diamondback rattlesnake. They are quite easily out-sized by even king cobras, let alone the larger species.

(Here's the links to the particular pages I was looking at. As a warning to people uncomfortable with snakes, there are pictures [click] [click] [click] [click] [click])

I'm not sure what the general body image was for the Naga, whether they were supposed to be more petite or if they should have been closer in height averages to Bakeneko, or even taller than that. Using the spreadsheet to determine what kind of average height a Naga can hold to while still being able to move around comfortably:

• As tall at Cherubs: 11ft to 16ft
  
• As tall as Bakeneko: 14ft to 22ft
  
• As tall as Chimera: 17ft to 23ft

Can't think of anything else to add, so I'll leave it at that. Thanks for taking the time to read through all my ramblings!

Thanks so much for bringing this up! I'm taking it to our lore team now for discussion c:

Hey there!

Before I start out, I want to say that I am incredibly happy to see people take interest in lore and characters. That's really awesome. I appreciate that so much ;u;

As for the arguments, there are some issues that I can see. First, and foremost, the calculator that is being used to show sizes/lengths isn't showing the equation or the process. This makes the numbers very suspect. I'm not saying it is bad, but if you want to convince me of something, you have to show me how you got there. Embi also pointed out this

Quote:

"Your numbers are a smidgen off, looks like. According to my refs, depending on snake species, snakes can 'stand' between 1/3 and 1/2 their length. Under the assumption Nagas stand at half their body length, at 9ft they'd be able to stand 4.5ft, and at 6ft would be 3ft, to be more accurate. It's really up to Yushi what she had in mind for lengths and if she wishes to adjust or change them in any way -- she may want them to be smaller! But we're definitely discussing it. Of course, you can have your nagas longer or shorter then the averages provided. There are people who fall outside of those ranges. However, the art likely won't be changing."

Secondly, the majority of the argument falls upon the use of Real Life. This is a nigh constant issue in NMA where Real Life tries to invade the setting. Sometimes this is fine - after all our only reference is real life. However, more often to not, Real Life hampers our ability to see beyond it.

Nagas aren't snakes. Nagas aren't born like snakes. Nagas, like all other NMA creatures, are born from stones. They are magical creatures in a magical world. No, there is no need to say they would need major levitation magic to move or hold themselves up. It's perfectly acceptable to swallow a bit of 'fantasy' and chalk it up to the unknown. There are many other sources where Naga tails are very short and they stand tall like these ones.

Thirdly, critiquing the art and saying that the tails look too long or too short is, frankly, weak and unneeded. Art hardly if ever reflects the height or size of the creature. For example, let us look at certs. I'm using two of Embi's certed kids for reference.

Chimera heights: 5'2 and 7'1
Cherub heights: 3'5" to 4'9"

The tallest Cherub will never reach the height of the shortest Chimera. But on the certs, they are equal height. Why? Because art cannot show height and, really, should NOT show height or size. It would be an absolute nightmare for certists.


Finally, I cannot say if the height or size of a naga will change. Yushika was the creator of Nagas, and is on Haitus. So while I can engage you and discuss why I am having an issue with numbers and the argument, in the end it is Yushi who makes the call on if they get longer or not.

i will chime in and say i was in no way critiquing the art either; i would really just like to know if nagas are teeny tiny.

as the art is, visually, the tail is at least as long to twice the length of the torso; in that instance, with how they appear to 'stand,' a naga that is 6' (including tail) would be only maybe 2' off the ground. proportionally they would be very, very small. if that's how they're intended, then there's nothing wrong with that. i'd just like to know if that's the case or if they're intended to be as tall (or similarly so) to the other races.

my question/argument has nothing to do with weights and 'realism' as much as looking at the template, seeing how long the tail is vs the body, and reasoning out ~about how tall they must be if their total length is that short. o uo it would be good clarification that, if they are intended to be that diminutive, that it's intentional

thank you for clarifying then. o uo/ it might be a good idea to maybe indicate that in their lore bit? i was personally thinking they were relatively as tall as other nm/dd (when standing in a position that the art depicts them) at first, and others might have the same thoughts!! i know it says their full length but it doesn't really indicate they are supposed to be physically smol things to me.

edit: because i made this little explanation before i saw you posted, yushi, this is what i mean:



if the art is a 6ft naga, they'd be standing only maybe 2 feet high in this position! i definitely didn't gather that offhand from the lore description~ even though it's super cute haha

(the lines on the right are just all of the pieces 'uncurled' so as to make it easier to compare)

"Note: Naga's are typically small. They also have the ability to hold themselves at any height that is consistent with their tail. Unlike our world snakes, they have developed racial magic to let them push up on their tails as needed. So some can hold themselves at 2ft, while others might prefer to hold themselves higher. It's preference!"

I inserted this into the lore! Does this help? Do you think I need to modify this anymore? I'm happy to make it as clear as I possibly can!

If you approach a conversation by pointing out how something is inconsistent with art and lore, then I will have to address it fully. My third point about art comes directly from your opening comment, Ishda.



This is directly aimed at the art. So even if you say your intention was not to critique the art, that is an art critique? I cannot process this in any other fashion. So I don't believe I was assuming anything. I read your argument and responded as politely and concisely as I could.

Using certs was to show how certing limitation (and thus art limitations) does not always match with lore descriptions considering height/size. It all falls back to the staple of your argument, which was using the visual references of bases as a reason to adjust lore. Certing limitation, colorist limitations, and art style limitations all hamper lore being 100% correctly shown in art. However, we do the best we can to have lore reflected in art. Sometimes, such as the Naga bases and their size/standing height it doesn't reflect that well.

As for the statement of 'chalk it up'



This is my way of saying 'hey, we might not be able to come up with something that satisfies both our limitation and real life expectations, but that's fine because this isn't real life'. We have had this come up, time and again, where real life pushes into fantasy. It's always a good reminder since sometimes we can get lost.


As I stated at the end of my response, Yushi was the only one who could edit their lore, and she has! I hope this helps everyone's concerns.

It does help to know that they were intended to be smaller, yes!Like Magica mentioned it's not exactly possible to get a feel for the height just by looking at the images, but my brain is primarily visual so sometimes it's hard to reconcile what I see with what I know. I actually have a little file I made with approximate height markers so I could resize things to help give myself better perspective. My usual visualization when I think of a naga is a lot bigger and longer, hence my bringing up the subject.

Thanks for the clarifications! They greatly help!