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Hate crime legislation, yes or no?

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SinfulGuillotine

Perfect Trash

PostPosted: Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:45 am


Maybe you've heard of this controversy already, but for quite some time, there's been some debate over the principle of "hate crimes," and whether or not there should exist separate (or increased) criminal charges for crimes that have been committed as a result of bigotry over race, gender, religion, sexual orientation, country of origin, etc. Supporters of hate crime legislation argue that crimes committed out of hatred for a certain demographic are inherently more vicious and harmful to society than "normal" crimes where the demographic of the victim is a non-issue, and that disenfranchised demographics need extra protection from the law precisely because they are more likely to be victimised over who they are. Those against hate crime legislation argue that something either is a crime or isn't a crime, and that punishing someone more or less for a crime based on why they committed it is over-stepping the bounds of government involvement, and coming dangerously close to playing "thought police."

(I'm sure there are more arguments that are commonly made on both sides, but this is just intended as a summery.)

Click the spoiler button if you care about my opinion.
Honestly, I think both sides make some valid points. Just in principle, I really don't like the idea of adding extra punishment based on why the perpetrator committed a crime, and I think that over-sensitivity towards hate crime legislation has caused some issues in court cases over the years. In many cases, it can be very hard to prove one way or another if bigotry was a primary motive. If a white man kills a black man, is that automatically a hate crime? It shouldn't be (in my opinion) if the killing truly wasn't race-motivated; not all white people are racist against black people, and there are nearly an infinite number of reasons someone might kill another person that have nothing to do with race. However, proving that the killing either was or wasn't race-motivated in a court of law can be a sticky business. If the defendant was overheard telling a racist joke at work a week before the killing took place, should that be evidence that it was a hate crime? If the defendant once donated money dedicated to helping kids in a primarily black neighbourhood, should that be evidence that the killing wasn't a hate crime? Should evidence either supporting or denying that the defendant was generally racist even matter if it isn't directly related to the crime itself? After all, even if he was racist, that doesn't necessarily mean that the crime itself was race motivated. There are still a million other possible reasons why that particular white man ended up killing that particular black man, and merely being racist isn't a crime in and of itself.

So, given all of that (among other things, I'm sure), I think it's perfectly reasonable to take issue with hate crime legislation, and taking issue with it doesn't necessarily mean that one doesn't care about disenfranchised demographics, or that one thinks bigotry and discrimination are okay. It just means they think that what happened to be in someone's head when they committed a crime shouldn't be on trial.

However, while I'm somewhat on board with that way of thinking on principle, in practise, I do certainly agree that crimes committed out of discrimination and bigotry are indeed inherently more vicious and harmful to society. There's also the issue that in many cases, hate crimes aside, we already punish people more or less based on their motives. In order for the taking of a human life to qualify specifically as murder, the prosecution has to prove that the defendant took that life with malicious intent. If it can be proven that the killing was both malicious and pre-meditated, that's even worse news for the defendant. If someone takes a life and can prove it was legitimate case of self-defence, they walk free (in many cases). Someone's intent when committing a crime has had a place in courtrooms for almost as long as courtrooms have existed, because the fact is, why someone did what they did matters to us on a very basic level. It often is the intent that makes an act truly evil or truly justified in our eyes. To have a criminal justice system of absolutes (beating someone up is ALWAYS wrong, taking a life is ALWAYS wrong, damaging someone's property is ALWAYS wrong, etc.) simply doesn't take in account the myriad reasons that human beings do the things they do, and the reasons for committing those actions play a huge role in the way we pass moral judgement on those actions (and in turn, how we feel the urge to pass legal judgement on them). I still think that hate crime legislation has been abused, and will almost certainly continue to be abused, and I think that needs to be called out for what it is, but the answer to that problem is not to do away with hate crime legislation all together. I think there is a solid legal precedent for its existence and continued practise, and I think it holds a vital place both in society and in criminal law.


Now it's your turn. Hate crimes: vital protection for minorities, or fascist thought police legislation?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 10:21 am


I think those against Hate Crimes just dont really give a s**t, unless they end up being the victims of a hate crime. Then they would make a fuss about it.

To be honest and on my serious opinion, i think its vital. A hate crime is tons more serious. Idk how to explain how, but thats how i see it. I think they should be charged for more than just a normal crime would. Even though both are serious.

-xHouYi


SinfulGuillotine

Perfect Trash

PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 8:06 am


-xHouYi
I think those against Hate Crimes just dont really give a s**t, unless they end up being the victims of a hate crime. Then they would make a fuss about it.
That's not necessarily true. There are people who are members of a minority, and even people who have been the target of discriminatory acts, who disagree with the principle of hate crime legislation. I'm not saying I agree with those people, just that it's inaccurate to say that everyone who doesn't support hate crime legislation "just don't give a s**t." I'm sure there are a lot of people who don't give a s**t, but the issue isn't as simple as apathy vs. non-apathy.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 13, 2015 2:31 am


Hate crime legislation is intrinsically flawed... because it assumes a crime committed based on hate is worse than one committed for any other reason. Which is a sweeping generalization and really how can you sit there and look at say, 2 rape victims, and tell one of them to their face that their problem is less worse because their perpetrator didn't hate them? That is ASININE.

Oh and what's more, if you think about it following this same logic shouldn't the crime be vastly more acceptable if the perpetrator did it out of LOVE? Haha... NO.  

Terramine


SinfulGuillotine

Perfect Trash

PostPosted: Sun Jun 14, 2015 10:04 pm


LordTrillion
Hate crime legislation is intrinsically flawed... because it assumes a crime committed based on hate is worse than one committed for any other reason. Which is a sweeping generalization and really how can you sit there and look at say, 2 rape victims, and tell one of them to their face that their problem is less worse because their perpetrator didn't hate them? That is ASININE.

Oh and what's more, if you think about it following this same logic shouldn't the crime be vastly more acceptable if the perpetrator did it out of LOVE? Haha... NO.
Except that when we use the term "hate crime" in a legal sense, we're not talking about it the sense of "I hated that person, so I hurt them." We're talking about a crime that was, in essence, discriminatory based on a person's race, religion, sex, gender, sexual orientation, country of national origin, etc. (I'm probably leaving some out); not, "I hate that person so I killed them," but rather, "I hate that person solely because they're black/gay/male/Jewish, so I killed them." There's a pretty big difference. A crime of passion committed out of hate is different, and has different social ramifications than a discriminatory crime committed out of hate where the victim was targeted only because they belonged to a demographic that the perpetrator believed to be inherently less worthy of life (or safety, or whatever basic right was violated in the carrying out of said crime, obviously not all hate crimes are murders...actually, most of them probably aren't).

And whether or not crimes are committed with malice already matters in a court of law, totally independent of hate crime legislation. Read my opinion in the first post for a more in-depth explanation.
PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 1:26 pm


People arguing against Hate-Crime legislation who are the same people who use terms like Sheeple and misinterpret the writings of George Orwell whenever they feel it helps their point. Some points.

1. YES, motive behind a crime should impact the legislations. We understand this without even thinking about it when we read the news every day. Who deserves a harsher punishment, the man who gets into a fight, and shoots a man, or the person who randomly kills an innocent person for fun.

So, why wouldn't we treat motive as being important regarding hate crime legislation?

2. Hate Crimes are bigger than one victim. A "Hate Crime" isn't targeted at an individual, but a group of people. The person isn't being attacked as an individual, but as an idea. It's not who they are but represent. Often times the goal is to send a broader, bigoted message.

So, rather than a single act of violence, we have many acts that impact whole communities and create an atmosphere of mistrust and violence. This sort of bigotry has a way of boiling over. Remember Ferguson? Yeah, I'm not getting into the controversial Mike Brown incident. Instead, I'm going to talk about the black man who was beaten bloody by the police.... And was then released after the police found out they got the wrong guy. But oh, no, that wasn't enough. The cops sued they man they beat for bleeding on their uniforms.

What's the message that was sent by this action? It tells you that it is not safe to be a black man in this town, that even the police want you DEAD. You think that hostility wasn't paid back recently? Ten fold.

You get those officers fired, hate crime charges filed, and what is the message that you send instead? These were bad cops and they are being punished for their crimes.

The Raging Quaker


SinfulGuillotine

Perfect Trash

PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:39 am


The Raging Quaker
People arguing against Hate-Crime legislation who are the same people who use terms like Sheeple and misinterpret the writings of George Orwell whenever they feel it helps their point. Some points.

1. YES, motive behind a crime should impact the legislations. We understand this without even thinking about it when we read the news every day. Who deserves a harsher punishment, the man who gets into a fight, and shoots a man, or the person who randomly kills an innocent person for fun.

So, why wouldn't we treat motive as being important regarding hate crime legislation?

2. Hate Crimes are bigger than one victim. A "Hate Crime" isn't targeted at an individual, but a group of people. The person isn't being attacked as an individual, but as an idea. It's not who they are but represent. Often times the goal is to send a broader, bigoted message.

So, rather than a single act of violence, we have many acts that impact whole communities and create an atmosphere of mistrust and violence. This sort of bigotry has a way of boiling over. Remember Ferguson? Yeah, I'm not getting into the controversial Mike Brown incident. Instead, I'm going to talk about the black man who was beaten bloody by the police.... And was then released after the police found out they got the wrong guy. But oh, no, that wasn't enough. The cops sued they man they beat for bleeding on their uniforms.

What's the message that was sent by this action? It tells you that it is not safe to be a black man in this town, that even the police want you DEAD. You think that hostility wasn't paid back recently? Ten fold.

You get those officers fired, hate crime charges filed, and what is the message that you send instead? These were bad cops and they are being punished for their crimes.
I wish guilds had an option to tip posts. Agreed on all points!
PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:40 am


I think it's extremely important, especially after what happened in South Carolina. Especially since we have pundits who are trying to de-emphasize the hate crime aspect of a shooting where the perpetrator said he feared black people were going to take over the world.

The Raging Quaker

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