Private business owners & LGBTQA people

[Sea Thrift]

I was having a conversation with my mother a couple of days ago. She listens to Dori Monson on the radio, while I have no desire to. She was telling me how Dori has no issue with the new federal laws for marriage, but he does have an issue with religious private business owners not being able to refuse business to LGBTQA people and couples. For example, the cake shop owner turning away the gay couple who wanted a wedding cake because the couple's union was against the owner's religious beliefs.

Now, I'm on the fence about this, and let me explain why. I get both sides for different reasons. I get the side of LGBTQA people not wanting to be refused business because of their sexuality/gender, because let's be honest--it's a form of discrimination, period. No one wants to be told or have it be insinuated that an owner doesn't want to serve them because they're gay or trans. It hurts, it's angering, and it's dehumanising. It both indirectly and directly affects me, too, because I'm also a part of that community.

However, I also get the people who are being told they can't practice their religious convictions, to watch one group of people become more accepted while you yourself become less accepted. I think churches should remain free to refuse gay couples if that's a part of their belief system, because they are a religious institution. But private business owners? Should a private business owner bring his religion into his work and as a result, into his potential customers' lives? Should Christian/Catholic hospitals be able to refuse a gay patient's care? Should Wall*Mart be able to refuse service to LGBTQA people?

For me, it's such a fine line, and yet it seems so easy to answer. While I get the resentment felt on both sides of this argument, discrimination is ultimately wrong. And while anyone has a right to discriminate as a form of free speech, albeit distasteful and overall disagreeable, I think discrimination should stay out of business. If religious business owners want to carry their beliefs into their business, then they should cater to like minds. I used to be a catechumen at a Catholic church and I saw small private owners do it all the time in the weekly church bulletin, so it's possible.

I also think allowing owners to freely discriminate against LGBTQA people without legal consequence reminds me too much of how people of color were treated what--less than a century ago. While some argue fervently that it's not the same thing, I think the comparison is relevant nonetheless. It's taking a group of people, dehumanising them, and segregating them from others who may be considered "normal" and more acceptable. It just seems like one step forward and two steps back, you know?

Saying that, I think I answered my own question, lol. But I still want to hear other thoughts. Please share them.  

[Shanna66]

as much as i love freedom of speech there is a limit for how much bullshit i will defend.

if you wouldnt do it to a person based on skin color then dont do it to a person based on sexual orientation

the whole religious excuse is just filled with bullshit. it would make sense if the bible ever mentioned homosexuality outright but it doesnt. in fact it also pretty much says not to be an asshat and treat people with respect, that only god can judge and everyone else should just shut up and try to get along.

people used that exact same excuse when they were forced to treat blacks as human beings instead of property and it was bullshit then too  

[DragonSlayer Arcos]

Where I come from, discrimination in the slightest isn't acceptable. This is indeed a form of discrimination. I could understand if a LBGTQA couple were performing lewd actions, which in turn led to their removal from a place of business. But to just flat out refuse to serve someone based on their orientation is pure and complete BS!

What, should Homosexual business owners refuse service to heterosexual costumers? No! It is completely counter-productive and immoral. Going down this path is only going to reignite prejudices and bad emotions that a great deal of people are starting to lose, albeit slowly.

Thinking about this is making me mad, so I am gonna go and take my anger out at the gym. Which by the way is full of hetero and homosexual people and they're all out in the open, so maybe there is some hope!  

[Sea Thrift]

Shanna66

as much as i love freedom of speech there is a limit for how much bullshit i will defend.

Eh, I'm not for censorship despite what vile things people might say. After all, if you feel like one group should be silenced, then logically, any group is at the mercy of being silenced on the grounds of other groups' principles, including yourself. This is why the first amendment is so crucial: it's not there to protect the bad people. It's there to protect us all as a whole from any opposing power (specifically, government, but essentially protecting us from each other, too). To defend someone's right to say something doesn't mean you have to agree with what's being said. I defend a religious person's right to say they think gay people are disgusting sinners. Do I agree with it? Hell no. It upsets me greatly. But who am I to censor them especially when I don't want to be censored? Who am I to take away their freedom but then demand my own?

*****

In a business environment, though... I think we can all say there are some tighter restrictions, and for good reason. Most, if not all, company policies warn to leave religious/other personal opinions at the door because hey--the people you may strongly disagree with outside of work are the very people you have to cooperate with on the job. Leave the baggage at home. As well, policies also warn that discrimination won't be tolerated, because again--cooperation is kind of important. Why are these ethics somehow being thrown away when dealing with customers? If anything, they should be priority.

Quote:

the whole religious excuse is just filled with bullshit. it would make sense if the bible ever mentioned homosexuality outright but it doesnt. in fact it also pretty much says not to be an asshat and treat people with respect, that only god can judge and everyone else should just shut up and try to get along.

I'm not trying to argue with you here, this just peaks my interest a little, so it's nothing personal. There are more than a couple of verses that do mention some form of sexual deviance, but no one can agree exactly on the interpretation of what's being said. I don't count the Leviticus verse because, well--it's Leviticus. It shouldn't be relevant in any literal sense for any Christian.

The few cases where many Christians say are some proof that homosexuality is bad are brought up by Paul. Once, in Romans chapter one, and then again in 1 Timothy, which is heavily debated. There is also 1 Corinthians, but again, there's still so much to debate. Paul even goes so far to say that effeminate men won't go to heaven, which is kind of silly when we consider how hormones work during a pregnancy (not like anyone would know that back then, but we do now). But then again, Paul's apostleship was and is still challenged to this day. As well, the bible is full of contradictions, which for me proves thay either this book was written alone by fallible humans, or if a god were involved, it didn't care much to correct its creations. Just sayin', but I digress.

Quote:

people used that exact same excuse when they were forced to treat blacks as human beings instead of property and it was bullshit then too

Indeed. I just hope we will get over this hump sooner than later. That might be wishful thinking, though.  

[Sea Thrift]

DragonSlayer Arcos

Where I come from, discrimination in the slightest isn't acceptable. This is indeed a form of discrimination. I could understand if a LBGTQA couple were performing lewd actions, which in turn led to their removal from a place of business. But to just flat out refuse to serve someone based on their orientation is pure and complete BS!

Couldn't agree more. I think it is wrong.

Quote:

What, should Homosexual business owners refuse service to heterosexual costumers? No! It is completely counter-productive and immoral. Going down this path is only going to reignite prejudices and bad emotions that a great deal of people are starting to lose, albeit slowly.

Well, a hetero person may be all right with homosexuality, so I don't think that's a close enough comparison to the cake shop owner scenario. The gay couple was totally unaware of the owner's beliefs until it was too late after all.

How about this: should a gay private business owner have the right to refuse service to a Westboro Baptist member? Let's say the WB member doesn't know the owner is gay, but the owner recognizes the member. As well, the WB member is being respectful and friendly because of their ignorance towards the owner's sexuality. What then?

Quote:

Thinking about this is making me mad, so I am gonna go and take my anger out at the gym. Which by the way is full of hetero and homosexual people and they're all out in the open, so maybe there is some hope!

Hope you feel better!  

[Shanna66]

Sea Thrift

Shanna66

as much as i love freedom of speech there is a limit for how much bullshit i will defend.

Eh, I'm not for censorship despite what vile things people might say. After all, if you feel like one group should be silenced, then logically, any group is at the mercy of being silenced on the grounds of other groups' principles, including yourself. This is why the first amendment is so crucial: it's not there to protect the bad people. It's there to protect us all as a whole from any opposing power (specifically, government, but essentially protecting us from each other, too). To defend someone's right to say something doesn't mean you have to agree with what's being said. I defend a religious person's right to say they think gay people are disgusting sinners. Do I agree with it? Hell no. It upsets me greatly. But who am I to censor them especially when I don't want to be censored? Who am I to take away their freedom but then demand my own?

*****

In a business environment, though... I think we can all say there are some tighter restrictions, and for good reason. Most, if not all, company policies warn to leave religious/other personal opinions at the door because hey--the people you may strongly disagree with outside of work are the very people you have to cooperate with on the job. Leave the baggage at home. As well, policies also warn that discrimination won't be tolerated, because again--cooperation is kind of important. Why are these ethics somehow being thrown away when dealing with customers? If anything, they should be priority.

Quote:

the whole religious excuse is just filled with bullshit. it would make sense if the bible ever mentioned homosexuality outright but it doesnt. in fact it also pretty much says not to be an asshat and treat people with respect, that only god can judge and everyone else should just shut up and try to get along.

I'm not trying to argue with you here, this just peaks my interest a little, so it's nothing personal. There are more than a couple of verses that do mention some form of sexual deviance, but no one can agree exactly on the interpretation of what's being said. I don't count the Leviticus verse because, well--it's Leviticus. It shouldn't be relevant in any literal sense for any Christian.

The few cases where many Christians say are some proof that homosexuality is bad are brought up by Paul. Once, in Romans chapter one, and then again in 1 Timothy, which is heavily debated. There is also 1 Corinthians, but again, there's still so much to debate. Paul even goes so far to say that effeminate men won't go to heaven, which is kind of silly when we consider how hormones work during a pregnancy (not like anyone would know that back then, but we do now). But then again, Paul's apostleship was and is still challenged to this day. As well, the bible is full of contradictions, which for me proves thay either this book was written alone by fallible humans, or if a god were involved, it didn't care much to correct its creations. Just sayin', but I digress.

Quote:

people used that exact same excuse when they were forced to treat blacks as human beings instead of property and it was bullshit then too

Indeed. I just hope we will get over this hump sooner than later. That might be wishful thinking, though.

i do feel that a person's right to free speech is important, even if they chose to use that right by hating us, but they need to keep that hate to their private lives and not bring it to work

thats one of the things i loved about my old boss. he was against lgbt stuff and i was openly bi, he never held it against me. sometimes we would talk about it and he would say ignorant things, but that was more because of a lack of knowledge on the subject rather than him being a bigot.